L30n1d4s Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 So, I am looking to form a solid "base unit" for my GK force and I am thinking of going with low AP Warrior Acolytes. As a starting point, I am thinking 7 WAs with hell guns (63 points), 3 WAs with Plasma Guns (42 points), all riding in a Chimera (55 points) and led by an Ordos Xenos Inquisitor with PML1 and TDA/Psycannon (110 points). That 270 points, which is not cheap. However, if the units jumps out and Rapid Fires, the OXI can cast Prescience on the squad.... on average, that's 14(3/4)(1/3)=3.5 wounds against MEQs from the hellguns and 6(3/4)(5/6)=3.5 wounds against MEQs from the plasmas, for a total of 7 average unsaved wounds. Throw in another wound or two from the Inquisitor's Psycannon and you can (statistically) almost wipe out an entire MEQ squad in a single round of shooting. Comparatively, a full 10 man Storm Trooper Squad with a Chimera and 2 Plasma costs 250 points and statistically inflicts an average of 16(2/3)(1/3)=3.5 wounds from hellguns and 4(2/3)(5/6)=2.5 wounds from plasma, for only a total of 6 unsaved wounds, vice 7-8 for the Inquisitor/WA squad, which is only 20 points more expensive. Comparing them to Sternguard (arguably one of the most cost-effective units in the game), for 280 points you get 10 Sternguard with two plasmas who, using Vengeance rounds/plasmas, on average inflict 16(2/3)(1/2)=5 wounds from bolters and 4(2/3)(5/6)=2 wounds from plasmas for a total of 7 unsaved wounds on average... still less than the Inq/WA squad and also more costly (granted, way better stats, armor, etc., but just looking at cost effective shooting right now). So, I am looking at an army based around these units as follows (note, 2000 point, double force org chart): HQ (320) -Coteaz [100] -OXI with TDA/PC, PML(1) [110] -OXI with TDA/PC, PML(1) [110] EL (110) -Techmarine with Rad and Blind Grenades [110] TR (900) -10 WA with 7 Hellguns, 3 Plasmas, Chimera [160] -10 WA with 7 Hellguns, 3 Plasmas, Chimera [160] -7 Death Cult Assassins (105) -10 GK Terminators with 2 PCs, BHB [475] FA(205) -Storm Raven [205] HS (465) -DK with Nemesis Great Sword [155] -DK with Nemesis Great Sword [155] -DK with Nemesis Great Sword [155] That is exactly 2000 points. OXIs go with Warrior Acolytes in Chimeras, Techmarine/DCAs ride in Storm Raven, Coteaz goes with Terminators, and DreadKnights foot slog (or teleport in) as required. I think it is pretty balanced, as you get 3 scoring units who are mobile and strong at shooting at most infantry (Inquisitor/Henchman/Chimera squads + DCA/OXI/Storm Raven), plus a tough scoring unit with good shooting/close combat (Termies with Coteaz). What really makes the list, though, is the 3 Dreadknights.... 12 T6 wounds protected by 2+/5++ is difficult to take down. Normally, against Terminators, you would use torrents, but it takes your standard bolter marine 54 shots just to cause a single wound to a Dreadknight... thats almost 3 rounds of a full 10 man Tac squad rapid firing, just to cause a single unsaved wound.... in close combat its even worse, as most weapons that can hurt 2+ armor strike at I1, while the DKs attack at I4 with S10, AP2 re-rollable To hit/To wounds. Add in 12 (15 on the charge) WS5, S10, AP2 I4 attacks, with all to hits and to wounds re-rollable (plus they cause ID if you can pass a Ld 10 Psychic Test) and the enemy cannot just ignore the Dreadknights. Lots of Divination/Prescience to give re-rolls, plus decent Psychic Defense and Ld 10 for most squads. The Multilasers and the Psycannons give decent shooting against light vehicles and the Dreadknights will pulverize any vehicle they get their hands on (Land Raiders and Monoliths included). Finally, the Storm Raven provides some flyer defense, some anti-tank, and a decent DCA delivery system. Anyone experienced with playing a list similar to this? Would love to hear any war stories (good or bad) using a list along these lines). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264722-hellgunplasma-acolytes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Well against an unknowing opponent with only tactical marines with bolters, yes this list rocks ;) First of all, being rather aggressive with your WA's as you are describing, they will die pretty fast. Sure, they unleash death when they deploy, but die as flies the upcoming opponent turn. The whole idea is based on "could wipe out a whole tactical unit", based on the ever so failing statistics. Thing is, if your chimera is closing in with that kind of cargo (which I hope your opponent sees), he will claim cover. So expect less dead tacticals. With this, jumping out within rapid fire range also means your in charge range basically. This is nothing your shooty WA's want. Even with Overwatch they wont kill enough (if you calculate with statistics). The DCA unit needs some kind of defense. And the usual combo is adding crusaders to the unit. 3++ save is pretty hard to break. I have fielded 2 Dreadknights quite often, and trust me... They dont soak up bolter fire. They soak up Lascannon fire, plasmafire etc. Those 12 wounds goes down pretty fast. CSM favors obliterators in many cases where I play, and they have really done a number on my dreadknights. Dont get me started on IG with all the lascannons they can field combined with the orders "bring it down". And since they are foot slogging, its easier to take them out. Even if deep striking, they still need to walk the last distance. Rooted in the turn they arrive (except for run of course). Looking at the army overall, what I would do against this list: 1. Take out your chimeras with my anti tank weapons. AV12 doesnt last long if all you have is 2 on the battle field. The rest of the army I ignore, as they are footslogging or starts off the table. 2. If the Chimeras are not down in the first turn, I would expect that they are "sneaking" towards my lines. Meaning they are not rushing forward, giving me more time to shoot at them, but of course with less effectiveness. 3. Once they are destroyed the cargo drops out. Now they are foot slogging. Dealing with them in this state in not really an issue. The main problem now is the Terminators, and dreadknights. The DCA who comes in will wipe a unit, and will be in the open. Easy to take out. Dont get me wrong I like your idea. But I cant see it working atm against a veteran player. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264722-hellgunplasma-acolytes/#findComment-3225759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Hellguns suffer from anemic range, making successful application of force a daunting proposition. You are intentionally making local superiority a bit tough to achieve, which is a killer of many less skilled GK players. If you have some sort of radical method you use to project force quickly with this kind of force, I'm all ears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264722-hellgunplasma-acolytes/#findComment-3225820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Plasma guns are fine. Hellguns are terrible, replace them with storm bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264722-hellgunplasma-acolytes/#findComment-3227621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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