MonsterofFenris Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I think i remember reading somewhere that blood claws dont make head count in a GC roll call, is this correct? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I think i remember reading somewhere that blood claws dont make head count in a GC roll call, is this correct? They are assigned to a Great Company; why wouldn't they be included in its numbers? Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The idea of not counting BCs in the numbers came from GWs us of the term "battle hardened" or something similar in th description of the number of soldiers in Ragnar Blackmane's company. Folks were suggesting then, that only GH and above was counted and thus SW Gret Companies could be extremely large. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The idea of not counting BCs in the numbers came from GWs us of the term "battle hardened" or something similar in th description of the number of soldiers in Ragnar Blackmane's company. Folks were suggesting then, that only GH and above was counted and thus SW Gret Companies could be extremely large. Oh I am so going to find this and make sure because if true my interanl fluff just got SOOO much easier :) !! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The idea of not counting BCs in the numbers came from GWs us of the term "battle hardened" or something similar in th description of the number of soldiers in Ragnar Blackmane's company. Folks were suggesting then, that only GH and above was counted and thus SW Gret Companies could be extremely large. Oh I am so going to find this and make sure because if true my interanl fluff just got SOOO much easier :) !! The use of the phrase "battle-hardened" is true(C:SW, Pg.17). The implication that Blood Claws don't, therefore, count may or may not be(I tend to prefer this interpretation). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The idea of not counting BCs in the numbers came from GWs us of the term "battle hardened" or something similar in th description of the number of soldiers in Ragnar Blackmane's company. Folks were suggesting then, that only GH and above was counted and thus SW Gret Companies could be extremely large. Oh I am so going to find this and make sure because if true my interanl fluff just got SOOO much easier :lol: !! The use of the phrase "battle-hardened" is true(C:SW, Pg.17). The implication that Blood Claws don't, therefore, count may or may not be(I tend to prefer this interpretation). I jokingly mentioned once that battle hardened only applies to Wolf Guard. Thus Blackmane's company is roughly 1000 marines in size ;). In truth I kind o like that idea :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 @dswanick Thank you for the source... /bow. once that battle hardened only applies to Wolf Guard. Thus Blackmane's company is roughly 1000 marines in size ;). In truth I kind o like that idea :lol: I am not going that far but, seriously my Ragnar company just got so easy to make now. Twelve is a sacred number to the Rout... thus is my internal fluff great companies are 12x12 or 144 Space Marines. My problem was covering all the bases with so few. Now that BCs do not count against that cap my internal fluff got easier :D. For Ragnar, based on his fluff, I see his Great Company as similar to a Airborne Unit in today's US Army. A moble rapidly deployable (via drop pod) assult force. He has one unit of TWC for recon or special missions, but everyone else can be dropped directly into the fray. Here is what I envision Ragnar's great company to look like... 12 packs of 12 Astartes each. 2x 12 TDA WG 1x 12 PA WG (including Ragnar) 1x 12 TWC 1x 12 Scout 2x 12 LF (really 4x6 but you can see my fluff here ;)) 5x 12 GH Now I can have as many BC packs as I feel like ;). So thanks guys :)!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astoran Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I like the way you think Anarion but do some Grey Hunters sit out battles since they wont fit in the drop pod? I guess injuries and such can prevent even a astartes from going in to a combat zone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I like the way you think Anarion but do some Grey Hunters sit out battles since they wont fit in the drop pod? I guess injuries and such can prevent even a astartes from going in to a combat zone. Thank you :huh:. From my own time in the military which was Cavalry and Long Range Recon, I can guarantee you not every soldier makes the front lines... Seperate mission from main force, injuries, ship detail, duties at the Fang, Thunderhawk details, rear echelon logistics, taskings to sister units, liason with senior officers/officials, Deathwatch, Wolfblade, etc... trust me a force that could get 134 out of 144 soldiers into the main event... 93%... would be the envy of all but the most fantasy based forces. That all make sense? And for modeling purposes modeling 12 with the same pack shoulder lets me adjust power weps, special weps, MOTW, and the standard for actual games all while making it clear what unit each belongs in :(. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 @dswanick Thank you for the source... /bow. once that battle hardened only applies to Wolf Guard. Thus Blackmane's company is roughly 1000 marines in size ;). In truth I kind o like that idea :D I am not going that far but, seriously my Ragnar company just got so easy to make now. Twelve is a sacred number to the Rout... thus is my internal fluff great companies are 12x12 or 144 Space Marines. My problem was covering all the bases with so few. Now that BCs do not count against that cap my internal fluff got easier :). For Ragnar, based on his fluff, I see his Great Company as similar to a Airborne Unit in today's US Army. A moble rapidly deployable (via drop pod) assult force. He has one unit of TWC for recon or special missions, but everyone else can be dropped directly into the fray. Here is what I envision Ragnar's great company to look like... 12 packs of 12 Astartes each. 2x 12 TDA WG 1x 12 PA WG (including Ragnar) 1x 12 TWC 1x 12 Scout 2x 12 LF (really 4x6 but you can see my fluff here ;)) 5x 12 GH Now I can have as many BC packs as I feel like :). So thanks guys :)!! Nevermind. Nothing to see here. You clearly stated that this was your own internal fluff, so no need for me to come in and challenge it. My apologies. Valerian Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Here is my problem with what you are trying to do. First, you are using a much too-organized for a group like the Space Wolves. We don't follow rigid strictures of organization. Packs start together as Blood Claws, and attrit over time as men killed promoted to the Wolf Guard or killed off. They aren't assigned replacements to bulk packs back up like, for example, Tactical Squads in the Ultramarines are. This part is incorrect. While packs may consist of the same individuals who have fought together since they were Blood Claws together, there are specific references to packs being "reinforced" back up to strength by merging groups of warriors. I'll post quotes shortly. Again, regardless of your own personal interpretation, the Studio certainly has never said that BCs are not numbered in the ranks of their Great Companies. And the studio has never said, definitively, that Blood Claws are part of the official strength of a Great Company. So either interpretation is valid. My perception is that those who see it this way are just looking for a pretense to be "more-bigger" and somehow, therefore "more-cooler" than other Marine Chapters when our Great Companies are already significantly larger in size. It kind of saddens me that you are so dismissive of the "motivations" of others. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonSTeR Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 The fluff changes all the time, I remember when Leman Russ was an imperial guard commander and the Space Wolves were based on the planet Lucan... As I mentioned above, battle hardened could also be interpreted to mean, Wolf Guard and long fangs, or even just venerable dreadnaughts, anyone else has 'just been in a few scraps'...:P There's one mention in the fluff in days gone by of marines being transferred between packs which led to bonds of honour forming like a web through the chapter. There's now 25 years of fluff, some of it has stayed largely constant, especially over the last 20 years, other parts of it have changed dramatically. I think it's fairly easy to go with the assumption that BCs don't count, and just as easy to say that they do. Heavens, I mean next some folks will be painting their armies they 'wrong' shade of grey... :devil: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain fabian Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 If this is true great companies look a lot bigger now. On the other hand fluff is fluff. You chose whether you follow it to the letter or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Here is my problem with what you are trying to do. So my fluff... my own little personal stories which are a blend of of my exp in the US Military as a Cavalry and Recon Officer and the 20 years I have known of SWs... and which clearly was not meant to specifically violate any canon some how bothers you... ? Uhm... okay... To the rest here, thanks :D. The fluff changes all the time, I remember when Leman Russ was an imperial guard commander and the Space Wolves were based on the planet Lucan... And I have a copy of a softback Rogue Trader with the map of our castle fortress :P !! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3226989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain fabian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Here is my problem with what you are trying to do. So my fluff... my own little personal stories which are a blend of of my exp in the US Military as a Cavalry and Recon Officer and the 20 years I have known of SWs... and which clearly was not meant to specifically violate any canon some how bothers you... ? Uhm... okay... To the rest here, thanks ;). The fluff changes all the time, I remember when Leman Russ was an imperial guard commander and the Space Wolves were based on the planet Lucan... And I have a copy of a softback Rogue Trader with the map of our castle fortress ;) !! I would kill a person to somehow obtain this map. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I would kill a person to somehow obtain this map. http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/40K-RuleBook-RogueTrader_Page_159.jpghttp://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/40K-RuleBook-RogueTrader_Page_160.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The fluff changes all the time, I remember when Leman Russ was an imperial guard commander and the Space Wolves were based on the planet Lucan... As I mentioned above, battle hardened could also be interpreted to mean, Wolf Guard and long fangs, or even just venerable dreadnaughts, anyone else has 'just been in a few scraps'...;) MonSTeR, I will place a significant "Fang-bet" with you that Leman Russ was never an Imperial Guard Commander (although the Wolves were based on Lucan). Regardless, even after I've proven you wrong on the above point, and you have to buy the next round of Ales for everyone here, the Studio fluff on the Wolves has been extremely consistent ever since it was refined at the end of the Rogue Trader era, circa White Dwarf 156 and 157 (20 years ago next month!). The changes have actually been pretty minimal - Wolf Scouts went from being newbies to seasoned (and from the GC of the Great Wolf to all GCs) and Thunderwolf Cavalry were added as units (although Thunderwolves themselves have always been there). Other than those items and the loss of Teleportation and preference to "fight with both feet on the ground", not a whole lot of major stuff has changed. I like you're second point, which you mentioned twice: "battle-hardened" could mean anything, which is why, without it being further defined, it really means nothing....and therefore, we should probably just ignore it. Otherwise, one could easily make the argument that Grey Hunters aren't battle-hardened either (at least not from the Space Wolves' perspective); come back when you've got a few centuries under your Belt of Russ, pup. This is a great devil's advocate position. It's perfectly valid, but now we're arguing that neither Blood Claws or Grey Hunters count, and we must find that that argument is ridiculous. Best, V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Please disregard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 While packs may consist of the same individuals who have fought together since they were Blood Claws together, there are specific references to packs being "reinforced" back up to strength by merging groups of warriors. I'll post quotes shortly. There's one mention in the fluff in days gone by of marines being transferred between packs which led to bonds of honour forming like a web through the chapter. I think this is the quote that you are looking for, but you have misremembered it: "warriors of the Great Companies fight in squads known as packs. These packs are formed when an aspirant is accepted into the Space Wolves, and the members of the pack will usually remain together for the duration of their service. New members are never added to a pack, and this means that members of a Long Fang pack were inducted and have fought together throughout their long service with the Chapter. In battle, Space Wolves risk their lives for their pack-brothers without a second though. This creates debts of honor and friendship that may take centuries to repay. Even after pack-brothers have moved on, these bonds remain, binding the members of a Great Company together with chains of honor and loyalty stronger than tempered steel. WD 246, Wolves of Fenris article (released to support 3e "minidex") V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggy12009 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 The idea of not counting BCs in the numbers came from GWs us of the term "battle hardened" or something similar in th description of the number of soldiers in Ragnar Blackmane's company. Folks were suggesting then, that only GH and above was counted and thus SW Gret Companies could be extremely large. Oh I am so going to find this and make sure because if true my interanl fluff just got SOOO much easier :D !! The use of the phrase "battle-hardened" is true(C:SW, Pg.17). The implication that Blood Claws don't, therefore, count may or may not be(I tend to prefer this interpretation). So you're saying the wolves rules lawyered the codex restrictions. That's awesome! :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I certainly never meant to start all this.... Twelve is a sacred number to the Rout... thus is my internal fluff... Not sure I could have been any clearer it was my own internal... no projection... so a bit disappointed you went after that so hard Val :). As for some other points... MonSTeR, I will place a significant "Fang-bet" with you that Leman Russ was never an Imperial Guard Commander (although the Wolves were based on Lucan). Well not a guard but Page 27 Rogue Trader... Marine Commander Imperial RecordAA/SW 05/015. f19.P& Profile: Leman Russ. Born 2612016, M32, Guranta D Gurantan system. Commissioned Adeptus Terra as a special agent 0134041, M32. First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade. Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan 033042, M32. Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unit 4 'Spacewolves'. Suffered severe alviola damage during acid storms on Susa. Transplanted with model cybron-osmotic gill." And then... Here is my problem with what you are trying to do. First, you are using a much too-organized for a group like the Space Wolves. We don't follow rigid strictures of organization. Packs start together as Blood Claws, and attrit over time as men killed promoted to the Wolf Guard or killed off. They aren't assigned replacements to bulk packs back up like, for example, Tactical Squads in the Ultramarines are. This part is incorrect. While packs may consist of the same individuals who have fought together since they were Blood Claws together, there are specific references to packs being "reinforced" back up to strength by merging groups of warriors. I'll post quotes shortly. Now certainly your quote is solid, but alternate contradictory fluff does exist... How about page 367 Battle of the Fang... His pack-brothers were arranged around him, all fourteen of them. the combat squad was an amalgam of other Blood Claw packs, cobbled together from those that survived the gate assaults. And page 394... His new pack, the battle-ravaged dregs of others' commands,... In any event I apologize for any trouble my internal fluff caused... /bow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 As for some other points... MonSTeR, I will place a significant "Fang-bet" with you that Leman Russ was never an Imperial Guard Commander (although the Wolves were based on Lucan). Well not a guard but Page 27 Rogue Trader... Marine Commander Imperial RecordAA/SW 05/015. f19.P& Profile: Leman Russ. Born 2612016, M32, Guranta D Gurantan system. Commissioned Adeptus Terra as a special agent 0134041, M32. First rose to imperial notice during Lucan Crusade. Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan 033042, M32. Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unit 4 'Spacewolves'. Suffered severe alviola damage during acid storms on Susa. Transplanted with model cybron-osmotic gill." That's it, you found it - Marine Commander and Imperial Commander {of} Lucan. Take a look at page 154 while you're in that Rogue Trader book for more details on the position of Imperial Commander in a Marine Chapter. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Fanning the flames, one could say all fenrisians selected to be space wolves are battle-hardened... Why else would they have been selected? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaraion Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Please don't feel that I've gone after you, and I certainly don't intend to offend. Just putting forth my perspective on the fluff. Part of that is showing where I see consistency problems. If you already know that there is a consistency problem with your own version then cool; as I said, your models, your hobby. You entered this threads with an opening statement of "Here is my problem... " And now you are projecting the problem onto me.... And yet you are not going after me? Funny but if you wanted a discussion you should have skipped the problem part, with the accompaning blame, and just gone to the sharing of ideas in my book. As for your fluff versus mine, I see valid points made by both. And really in the 40k universe isn't that the whole joy? The conflicting version of the staus quo... the contridictions that force you to choose how things "really" work in the 40k universe. You can pick fluff to support just about any perspective, but I am not here to tell you that my fluff is better than yours, no I like that people see things differently. What I can tell you I believe is that the Vlka Fenryka, the harshest trained of all Asartes, in 10,000 years of existence have been in "Total War" more than just once... You can draw whatever conclusion you feel relavant from that for your fluff. I know I have made my decisions based on my fluff. And the next time I share please remember the "my models, my hobby" mantra, before you drop a "problem" in the middle of that :D. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain fabian Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thanks dswanick. I didn't see that coming. Thanks a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264755-blood-claw-question/#findComment-3227348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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