CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 With the recent emergence of a Torrent-Flamer that MEQ actually fear, in combination with the Flamers of Tzeentch threat, I thought this thread would be prudent to help out newer players who need help with Formation Warfare. A bit of 'Fundamentals 40k' http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8343 A bit of shameless self-promotion too I suppose. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 An excellent article - thanks! The visuals really helped describe the concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Great article. I'll definitely have to think about that when I play tomorrow. I suppose making maximum use of cover and terrain is probably more important, but out in the open (as Space Marines so often are, because the Emperor is the only armor we need) those ideas are certainly useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 These fundamentals are good to know, but you do not provide any rear security with these formations, as they assume all attacks are coming from the front. All the VIPs in the back fall into a trap of setting yourself up for the Cross-up. What do you do when you're being set up for this situation? Just cover the rear with firepower and hope for the best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 These fundamentals are good to know, but you do not provide any rear security with these formations, as they assume all attacks are coming from the front. All the VIPs in the back fall into a trap of setting yourself up for the Cross-up. What do you do when you're being set up for this situation? Just cover the rear with firepower and hope for the best?Not all armies have the ability to attack from the Rear. If they do, you have to use the Lines of Sight from Terrain and Vehicles to your advantage to prevent getting made a sucker. Know thine Enemy. Alphastrikers got a lot better in this edition just for this reason. Armies that have both Torrent and/or Large Blast incoming from the Front combined with Deep-strikers who can land in the back are a really potent List-combo for sure. Your VIPs do not always have to be in the back, I just put them there for the photos where I put an arrow pointing 'that way towards incoming damage.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 And people look strange at me when I say Henchmen are the god-mode 5000 in C:GK... Flank/Rear assault tactics are essential to exploiting simple formations like this, and I'd say a good majority of the available forces have the means to enact tactics like this (some more effectively then others). Some of your thoughts on how to provide all round defense for your squads would be beneficial for the community as a whole, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Well as mentioned in the article, there are two types of Hollow Box formations: Column-natured and Line-natured. Against rear deepstrikers, they will rarely come from pure-rear; there will be a favored available rearward flank. You can force that as well by anchoring your advance against one of the edges of the gameboard, as well as through objective placement. In fact, frontal assault down the middle is one of the worst rookie mistakes I commonly see time and again. Pick a flank folks. Also this is why Relic is such a poorly designed mission for strategic purposes. That mission..... ugh. Anyhow, back to Column-natured and Line-natured Hollow Boxes. If you have deep-strikers arriving rearward and to a flank (and you should be able to predict that-- of course they can make a calculated cost-benefit decision and attempt to drop next to the board-edge and risk falling off), then you need to use Line-natured. This means the wide front is parallel to the enemy line of battle. Then your VIPs should be placed in the opposing corner of the Box both away from the flank which deep-strikers will appear from and away from the enemy Line of Battle. Also, all text in this particular reply doesn't apply to combatting Flamers/Screamers Daemon-Spam. I'm ........ still formulating how I'd fight that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 There we go, that's more like it. You should probably include this in the original blog post, as this is also very much a part of mitigating damage. However, let's not forget outflanking forces, as those threaten the opposite rear flank. In fact, Outflankers + Deep Striking threats could cover both rear flanks, so "wall hugging" could turn out to be disasterous. The importance of using screens and terrain to cover weak flanks made by these formations can not be emphasized enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 There we go, that's more like it. You should probably include this in the original blog post, as this is also very much a part of mitigating damage. However, let's not forget outflanking forces, as those threaten the opposite rear flank. In fact, Outflankers + Deep Striking threats could cover both rear flanks, so "wall hugging" could turn out to be disasterous. The importance of using screens and terrain to cover weak flanks made by these formations can not be emphasized enough. Agree on all counts, absolutely. Now a list with Deepstrikers, Outflankers and a Large Blast generating gunline forward presence might or might not find itself piece-mealed where it cannot accomplish any of those missions too well. And they sure as heck better have a Comms Relay LOL. If they focus on Outflankers, then assault down the center (despite what I said earlier :) ) If they focus on Deepstrike then assault down a flank. If they focus on gunline then that's fine. A good list should be able to survive an opponent that has 'one-of' Outflanker and Deepstriker. Honestly, the only way you could play all three roles competently would be through Infantry-MSU (not Mech MSU) or just play at a really really high points level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 ... or play Grey Knights/Chaos Space Marines/Blood Angels/Codex Space Marines/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Necrons/etc... Daemons? Easy peasy for me. 2 Strike Squads, Interceptor Squad. Activate Warp Quake after securing T1, and Daemons are tabled T1. Combat squadded interceptors cover the forward half of the board with a huge warp quake area (leaving a small hole in the center for one squad to maybe safely land, at which point you place Coteaz + squad of shooting death) and strike squads cover your board edge (Scout helps cover the distance). I suppose there's a reason why all those daemon players are avoiding me like the plague... You know you're facing daemons galore, you might want to ally in what I just described. Completely doable as an allies contingent, and remarkably multi-purpose as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 ... or play Grey Knights/Chaos Space Marines/Blood Angels/Codex Space Marines/Eldar/Dark Eldar/Necrons/etc...Pretty sure Blood Angels, Vanilla Marines, DE and Necrons don't Outflank. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Scouts can outflank. Besides, Blood Angels have the most reliable deep striking units I've ever seen, which mitigates the risk of going close to the board edge IMO. Codex Marines can outflank their entire army. Kor'sarro Khan, remember? Necrons have flying circus, flank/rear assault is a cakewalk for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Scouts can outflank. Besides, Blood Angels have the most reliable deep striking units I've ever seen, which mitigates the risk of going close to the board edge IMO. Codex Marines can outflank their entire army. Kor'sarro Khan, remember? Necrons have flying circus, flank/rear assault is a cakewalk for them. Scouts? Lol. Blood Angels can deepstrike close to the edge but not with very good shooting units (post-edit: good call on the Baal Pred though). I can't think of a single Khan list that takes multiple outflankers, multiple drop-pods and a solid gunline. Not to say it doesn't exist... I just haven't seen it. But its not worth going tic for tat, I'm really not interested in that truly haha :tu: . I acknowledge that Formations are weak versus rear and flank attacks--- but what aren't? It isn't a virtue of the formation, its a virtue of the ability-- Its called alphastrike for a reason, its a non-argument. Cheap or Strategically less-valuable Screens are the best you can do-- not every codex is blessed with warp-quake and other MattWardisms. :) (haha jab-jab... and yes I know he wrote my codex too lol) You must simply maneuver in an optimized way versus the greatest threat to your units. Target Prioritization is the key towards making the most of your Offensive output, while optimized formations and maneuver is the key towards making the most of your Defensive options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Baal predators could also outflank and cause serious trouble for the cheaps. Flamestorm cannon... *shudder*. In any case, just trying to illustrate the point that one formation is not the be all end all solution, as many people seem to think they are. Tactical awareness is necessary to protect your assets in 6th edition, something I'm extremely happy to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 In any case, just trying to illustrate the point that one formation is not the be all end all solution, as many people seem to think they are. Tactical awareness is necessary to protect your assets in 6th edition, something I'm extremely happy to see. Well said. When I read that flanking and encircling maneuvers would finally mean something, I was freakin happy I'll tell you what. Directionality of attack is something this game has been missing, and now it adds a huge amount of flavor, tactics and strategy to the game. Now if they'll stop with the more blatant codex creep and undercosting OP units, my sanity might survive this ride... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Like the aforementioned daemons... whoever made those rules needs to have his head roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianj253 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Hey CAG, thanks for posting that. I wasn't really sure what the best formation was so this gave me some good info! The interceptors are a good idea. It's to bad they can only move that shunt move once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Hey CAG, thanks for posting that. I wasn't really sure what the best formation was so this gave me some good info! No problems, I like to help out and I wanted to have an article on formations where I could refer new players-- pictures are worth a thousand words, formations are something easier to see rather than explain. I updated the article to include a multi-unit formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Very interesting article. One I'll have to read s few times to fully appreciate it. Question, is there any value in a stacked chevron or wedge formation? Or would it function the same as the perfect box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Question, is there any value in a stacked chevron or wedge formation? Or would it function the same as the perfect box? Great question! For me, the stacked chevron works very similar to a perfect box, but you can use Line of Sight blocking from terrain to make things interesting. If one 'wing' of the chevron cannot be seen, then damage will only be taken by the wing in sight. This means you can take shooting casualties but your closest model will not end up further away from the opponent- important for melee units. I'm sure there's a few more uses but that's the only one that readily comes to mind. And of course, the very crux of the article itself is that it only applies when facing opposing templates. Versus an army with all direct-fire, then spreading out is actually detrimental, unless you're attempting to 'pull a punch' on a melee charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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