Missile Launchers vs Lascannons

[UltraTacSgt]

Str 8 AP 3 on the Krak Missile vs Str 9 AP 2 on the Lascannon, in regards to armor or tougher targets.

 

When lighter infantry is the target, Str 4 AP 6 small blasts from Frag Missiles beats out the single Lascannon shot.

 

I play Codex Space Marines so it is much cheaper for me to get Missiles en masse from Devs and Typhoons as opposed to getting Lascannons on Tacs, Devs, or armor.

 

Assuming melta elsewhere in the list for true anti-AV14. Is the 1 extra strength and AP value really worth that much more when targeting armor at range?

 

Discuss the pro's and con's of each and the platforms you use to get them onto the table.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Putting all discussions of Str8 versus Str9 aside.

 

With a Penetrating hit, a Lascannon has double the chance to cause a one-hit kill than a Krak Missile.

 

Kraks kill vehicles through quantity fire for Hullpoints, Lascannons kill vehicles through quality fire. But as Stalin once said "quantity has a quality all of its own"..... lol.

 

It boils down to your list and what you're lacking in mostly.

[Venemox]

Personally, I run Missile Devs (BA). The ability to Krak armor (death by hull point loss!) OR Frag hordes has been an on the field audible I have come to rely upon.

 

Against troops: There is nothing a Lascannon can ID that a Krak missile can't. AP3 is good enough against *most* targets.

Against vehicles: Hull points is a more reliable way to not 'overkill'. If you fire 4 lascannon shots and get a one-hit kill, you've overpaid for the effect.

 

Cost wise: More missiles and fewer lascannons means more toys or more boys elsewhere. Never a bad thing.

 

If your local meta features Necron vehicles heavily, lascannons MAY be the way to go. The 'Cron vehicles go from AV 13 to AV 11 after the first penetrating hit. With a missile launcher, that requires 6's to penetrate, 5's to glance. You double the chances of that initial penetrating hit with the Str 9 lascannon (4 to glance, 5 or 6 to penetrate), allowing other moderate strength firepower to be able to damage the 'Cron vehicles. i.e. Rapid firing Plasma Guns.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally, I run Missile Devs (BA). The ability to Krak armor (death by hull point loss!) OR Frag hordes has been an on the field audible I have come to rely upon.

 

Against troops: There is nothing a Lascannon can ID that a Krak missile can't. AP3 is good enough against *most* targets.

Against vehicles: Hull points is a more reliable way to not 'overkill'. If you fire 4 lascannon shots and get a one-hit kill, you've overpaid for the effect.

 

Sorry I don't quite agree.

 

See I just don't think this is the case. Long range AP2 necessitates lascannons over missile launchers, and reliance on glancing targets to death is awful. Obliterator marching towards you? Missile launchers won't do much. Meganobz in a Battlewagon? Destroying the vehicle with missile launchers will be a challenge, and even if you do, wiping out the Meganobz will be just as difficult. Landraiders? Good luck planning on glancing them to death, the assault unit inside will be with you long before you destroy it.

 

Sure against power armour AP3 is pretty good, but you have heavy weapons in part to even the odds, which also means destroying 2+ armour saves (much more frequent in games now).

 

Against vehicles, there is no such thing as over kill when it comes to one shot kills. If you fire 4 Lascannons and get a one shot kill, you've acheived a kill with your shooting and that's good. Relying on Hull Points to kill things is indecisive and will mean you come up against problems when you face opponents with multiple medium to heavy armour units in an army.

 

It's not that I don't agree you need a decent amount of weapons and paying the points for Lascannon Devastators is unbelievably extortionate, but Lascannons are more important in this edition than ever. Sprinkling them around your list is a great way to augment your multiple missile launchers in Devastators and Typhoons.

[Venemox]

Thanks Captain, but I had discounted Landraiders when the OP said:

 

Assuming melta elsewhere in the list for true anti-AV14.

 

EDIT: Finishing my post at home, vice at work :lol:

 

You do bring up good points about the shift to 2+ saves. I have not seen that in my local meta, but we're fumbling our way through Cron Air and Tzeentch Daemons. I am (slowly) creating a 2+ save list using BA/DA.

 

The biggest reason I chose Missile Launchers over Lascannons before was cost. The Lascannons were simply prohibitively expensive. And I have Melta readily available throughout my list, as well.

 

While 2+ save IS on the rise, I still feel that 3+ save and Toughness 4 are the benchmark numbers. Strength 8, AP3 bypasses the armor and causes ID (which also bypasses my precious FNP).

 

My preferred platform is Devastators, with ablative wounds. A cheap source of 4 heavy weapon shots per turn. Taking losses gradually reduces effectiveness, vice the all/nothing issue I've encountered with vehicle based gun platforms.

 

Between Devs and Scouts, I've been known to run 13 Missile Launchers (Scouts get 1, plus Sniper Rifles).

[Mannyu78]

My perspective is, if you can fit a lascan in the backfield tactical squad do it. Otherwise, save lascannons for predators and razorbacks. Devestators are too expensive and I want my sternguard mobile.

[Fibonacci]

ML or LC is not a choice made in a vacuum. It really depends on what you want to use your devs for and how the rest of the army is equipped. LC is obviously a better choice against vehicles and TDA, they both have the same instant death range and ML can better handle hordes while still being able to take out their transports.

 

If you have melta throughout the rest of the army, I would go with ML to help take out any horde armys you go against. If you have flamers on your troops, then take LC.

 

While you could take 2 LC and 2 ML, I have found that trying to make a unit do a little of everything never pans out since they don't really do anything well.

[Gideon999]

I would say that if they were costed the same, I would pick lascannons all day long and fill out the lack of anti infantry with other units. That said, most codex's charge you almost double the points or more for a lascannon vs an ML. This is the real issue. Its a LOT easier to get melta into your list with a good number of ML's instead of the reverse. That being said though, I might have to look at reversing it to look more closely at it since I would dearly love to be able to ID those 2+ models from longer range and melta units tend to end up being suicide units if you arent careful.

[DerekLee688]

I think we all know a single weapon will not fill all the anti-vehicle/MC that an army needs. ML's need melta to supplement AV13-14 and LC's are too expensive to stop TEQ, hordes, or rhino/razor spam alone. In a lot of cases having missile launchers on opposite sides of your deployment zone will take advantage of the weaker side armor a lot AV12-14 vehicles have: Battlewagon, chimeras, predators, vindicators. Typhoons and ML-scouts can work the side armor facings; won't work on Land Raiders or monoliths, but melta does fine now.

 

With allies, I can pick the better Melta/ML options that Space marines have and the cheap Lascannons/Plasma gun/melta the IG have.

 

I will say that power weapons losing the ability to ignore 2+ saves has hurt C:SM ability to fend off melee. Lucky enough, any sucker with a 2+ save is probably expensive enough to justify the price tag of a LC to toast it, Mephiston anyone?

[DarkGuard]

I would say that if they were costed the same, I would pick lascannons all day long and fill out the lack of anti infantry with other units.

 

This. Come on, if they were priced the same we wouldn't be having this debate, it'd be lascannons all the way with anti-infantry focussed units to supplement.

 

However, cost is a big issue, and lascannons can be extortionately priced, especially on Pred and Devs.

 

The other issue though, is that with changes to the vehicle damage table it's harder to kill with krak missiles. Of course, you can glance to death now, but that's not too reliable. It's good, but not foolproof.

 

So I agree with Idaho, run some of both. Have your Devs and Typhoons and Terminators with massed missiles, which is the cheapest option for them. But then take lascannons on your Razorbacks, Tactical squads and Sternguard where they're cheaper. Supplement your krak missile fire with lascannons to have some greater chances of killing tanks outright.

[Azash]

Personally I have always preferred the flexibility of Missile Launchers. It's all well and good to have that AP 2 Str 9 hit for a the singular big targets bug against Ork, Nid, even guard armies as well as foot slogging marine armies those 1 big boom weapons are not that effective. The problem is people go one way or the other. However Missile launchers for all their flexibility are not going to take out those damned Tau Rail guns suits or terminators (2+ sv in general), or reliably take out av 13. But if you load up the las you end up with "I sure killed the hell out of the lead ork to bad the other 29 cut us to ribbons!".

 

I have an idea for a new strategy to build a list around that moves away from having to make that choice. The best answer is not ML or LC its ML and LC but how do you get them both in a list in enough quantity without running low on points. Also how do you play to the strengths of both weapons. My idea is simple massed ML's as this plays to their strength they are a light armor killer, a horde killer, and a death by glancing weapon. All of which work better when fired from massed sources. Also in C:SM it's easy to get massed missile launchers for relatively cheap, typhoons, cyclones, dreads, or a dev squad with 4 missile launchers (one of the cheaper but more effective dev squad load outs).

 

Las cannons are a different animal though. As others have stated they are a 1 shot 1 kill (or explosion) type weapon. So firing them from massed sources really is self defeating. Why fire 4 las cannons from a dev squad at 1 target. Sure it ups your odds but you have just paid an insane amount of points to take out a single target. Also if 1 explode or kill shot happens the other 3 shots are kind of waste since you can't redirect that fire somewhere else (wasted points wasted shots both not good). The solution in C:SM is tac squads with LC's I believe. In relative terms the 10 pts it costs to stick an LC in a tac squad is cheaper than the per LC cost for the dev squads. It also singles our your LC's so if you are successful on the first shot the second squad's LC and shoot at something else. Another great platform for single fire LC's would be a Las/plas Razor perhaps as a dedicated for the dev squad again it gets you las that you can redirect your fire other places or if your first shot is unsuccessful you can concentrate more and more shots until you are. Also the Auto Las pred is a good option for this since its cheap and it's only 2 paired up las cannons the bang for the buck makes it very tempting.

[Mannyu78]

^This. Better explained, but its what I do.

[Muctar]

The solution in C:SM is tac squads with LC's I believe. In relative terms the 10 pts it costs to stick an LC in a tac squad is cheaper than the per LC cost for the dev squads. It also singles our your LC's so if you are successful on the first shot the second squad's LC and shoot at something else. Another great platform for single fire LC's would be a Las/plas Razor perhaps as a dedicated for the dev squad again it gets you las that you can redirect your fire other places or if your first shot is unsuccessful you can concentrate more and more shots until you are. Also the Auto Las pred is a good option for this since its cheap and it's only 2 paired up las cannons the bang for the buck makes it very tempting.

I second this idea. If you combat squad a lot, such as in objective games which happen 5 out of 6 times, then you can use combat squaded tacticals with the lascannons to hold the objectives in your deployment zone. That way the lascannons can remain stationary and you can shoot them one at a time at targets since you are trying for the 1 hit kills. This is the cheapest way to get infantry lascannons in C:SM. The combi-pred is great as well because at least 1 lascannon will usually hit each time it fires.

[Venemox]

I keep seeing 'one hit kills' popping up again and again. Yes, the lascannon IS more likely to achieve this result (and in some instance, the only option of the 2 presented that will do it). However, with the new wound allocation rules and Focus Fire (rule, not tactic), and Precision Shots; your solo Lascannon operator is a prime target. Also, one hit kills are at the whim of fewer rolls to the Dice Gods.

 

Weight of fire is acheivable with an all ML approach, and another truism you might have seen is 'Quantity has a Quality all it's own'. Especially since you can now move AND fire them (albeit, as Snap Shot Kraks).

 

In short, I prefer ML's, and in quantity.

 

As for Hull Points being less reliable than 'one shot kills', I don't beleive that's true. If anything, the ability to strip hull points allows you to NOT have to rely on a single roll on the Vehicle Damage chart being good enough. You're not going to achieve supression via hull points.

 

I second the idea of putting solo lascannons in Tactical Squads vice Devestator squads. Mostly due to cost, but also the ability to Combat Squad, or swing 9 of 10 models around and keep the heavy weapons operator stationary to avoid Snap Shots. When I did run tac squads, I went for as cheap as possible, so it was ML's for my. New edition, however, new meta and new rules to adapt to.

 

Oh, and one very, very nice thing about Frag Missiles...'Swarm'.

[Captain Idaho]

I keep seeing 'one hit kills' popping up again and again. Yes, the lascannon IS more likely to achieve this result (and in some instance, the only option of the 2 presented that will do it). However, with the new wound allocation rules and Focus Fire (rule, not tactic), and Precision Shots; your solo Lascannon operator is a prime target. Also, one hit kills are at the whim of fewer rolls to the Dice Gods.

 

Well this is a possibility but really it's not such an issue to place a Lascannon in a unit at the back of a unit. And precision shots are unlikely at range, and something which would effect any other heavy weapon just as much as a lascannon.

 

As for Hull Points being less reliable than 'one shot kills', I don't beleive that's true. If anything, the ability to strip hull points allows you to NOT have to rely on a single roll on the Vehicle Damage chart being good enough. You're not going to achieve supression via hull points

 

Thing is, lascannons strip Hull Points too. They have the same chance against a vehicle as missile launchers (i.e. a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a glance) and also get a better chance of penetrating.

 

A good Space Marines army would have reasonable amounts of firepower as quantity (from cheap missile launchers etc) and have lascannons sprinkled in for good measure to provide extra punch.

 

So I think we have some consensus:

 

I second the idea of putting solo lascannons in Tactical Squads vice Devestator squads. Mostly due to cost, but also the ability to Combat Squad, or swing 9 of 10 models around and keep the heavy weapons operator stationary to avoid Snap Shots. When I did run tac squads, I went for as cheap as possible, so it was ML's for my. New edition, however, new meta and new rules to adapt to.

 

...Have your Devs and Typhoons and Terminators with massed missiles, which is the cheapest option for them. But then take lascannons on your Razorbacks, Tactical squads and Sternguard where they're cheaper. Supplement your krak missile fire with lascannons to have some greater chances of killing tanks outright.

 

I particularly adhere to the latter.

[appiah4]

I like taking them both. On a dreadnought. So awesome.

[Venemox]

Captain, the point was if you're taking lascannons, you aren't going to bea ble to take as many of them at the same cost. Ergo, having fewer heavy weapons makes losing each one hurt that much more. Whether that's to silly things like Necron Deathmarks who DS behind your unit, Sgt Telion manning his Quad Gun, the Vindicare, Bjorn's assault cannon, etc.

 

Given the option, based strictly on ability to kill vehicles, 4 lascannons will beat 4 missile launchers. Hands down, every day of the week.

And in 3 unit of Dev's, 12 lascannons will beat 12 missile launchers at killing vehicles. However, paying for that will cost, dearly.

 

I still think missile launchers are better en masse, and lascannons are good when cheap enough or the only tank hunting option. (i.e. Predator sponsons, Tac Squads, etc.)

[Brom MKIV]

Most of my lists in 5th ran no less than 15 missiles, and usually more. Now however ive noted a marked decrease in effectiveness of missiles, largely due to the changes to the damage chart and the lack of suppression of vehicles but also due to the increase in infantry. Anyway ive made a conscious effort to move away from missiles but not to take las. Ive instead moved towards template and large blast weapons, and dakka. My AT is still melta either via DP, transport or speeder.

 

The other problem with missiles I see is that plasma is now alot closer to missiles, except plas is far more accessable. and rapid fire. and ap2. Missiles in comparison are only +1 str (obviously range matters but so does line of sight).

 

I do agree that tacs should be taking las now and in fact las in conjunction with combat squads is actually the tacs main strength when compared to other troops choices like BAs assault marines or grey hunters, at least IMO.

 

Anyway missiles are still good, just much closer to what they should be now along with everything else. When using my deathwing or when taking devs they are still my heavy weapon of choice. For those units. For everything else I think other options are better now.

[Captain Idaho]

Captain, the point was if you're taking lascannons, you aren't going to bea ble to take as many of them at the same cost. Ergo, having fewer heavy weapons makes losing each one hurt that much more. Whether that's to silly things like Necron Deathmarks who DS behind your unit, Sgt Telion manning his Quad Gun, the Vindicare, Bjorn's assault cannon, etc.

 

Given the option, based strictly on ability to kill vehicles, 4 lascannons will beat 4 missile launchers. Hands down, every day of the week.

And in 3 unit of Dev's, 12 lascannons will beat 12 missile launchers at killing vehicles. However, paying for that will cost, dearly.

 

I still think missile launchers are better en masse, and lascannons are good when cheap enough or the only tank hunting option. (i.e. Predator sponsons, Tac Squads, etc.)

 

It looks like we're in agreement about the conclusion then, with just the nitty gritty getting to the conclusion we might have to hammer out.

 

:)

[Venemox]

It looks like we're in agreement about the conclusion then, with just the nitty gritty getting to the conclusion we might have to hammer out.

 

:D

 

TBH, you've persuaded me to try lascannons outside my normal builds. To think outside my self imposed box.

[Captain Idaho]

And I went away and tried to squeeze in Typhoons so I could get 4 more Missiles into my list!

[DarkGuard]

Why not quad ML Devs? Cheaper, and IMO, more durable.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

... with the armies i play against. (mostly MEQ) :blink:

 

I would choose the ML over lascannon.

My playstyle is quantity over quality.

 

The vehicles do not trouble met that much as most MEQ tanks are AV11. None play with preds in their list and if they do then 1 lascannon is sufficient.

 

All of this thoughts is under assumption that there is a melta in the list for AV14.

[Azash]

I ran the the list and tactic I described in my earlier post and it wrecked face. The ability to target high value armor targets at the beginning of your shooting phase with the las cannons and then see what damage was done then move on to the missile launchers to secondary targets or do clean up duty was vicious. Nothing on the battlefield is safe when your running a combination of these two weapons. How many could I fit in a 1500 point list? I managed a 4 ML squad of Dev's, Typhoon (LS), and a Cyclone (5 man termy squad) combined with 2 Tac squad LC's, Two Razorback LC's, and an Autolas Pred. That's 8 Missile attacks, and 5 LC's a turn. I still had points left for a full bike squad, bike capt with all the trimmings, and some sternguard. Also a few melta's thrown in their just in case!

 

Effective, versatile, and relatively cheap.

[minigun762]

Point values aside, I know I'm more afraid of seeing massed lascannons instead of massed missiles. Having a weapon that is a legitimate threat to everything on the board has it's own value.