So just how powerful is Abaddon?

[Phantomworks]

From various sources, mostly Black Library novels, I get the impression that most if not all Chaos Lords, even from the original legions kind of swear fealty to Abaddon and see him as the Chaos Overlord ruling all underneath him, albeit some reluctantly...

 

Is this perception correct? Are there any other Chaos Lords that stand to him eye to eye or don't fall under his reach of power?

 

I know that most of the original Chaos Legions don't seem to have a single Chapter "Master" for the lack of a better word leading a legion as a whole, but separate Warlords that command a faction of the overall legion...Is that assumption also correct?

 

Thanks,

G

[Hellios]

From various sources, mostly Black Library novels, I get the impression that most if not all Chaos Lords, even from the original legions kind of swear fealty to Abaddon and see him as the Chaos Overlord ruling all underneath him, albeit some reluctantly...

 

Is this perception correct? Are there any other Chaos Lords that stand to him eye to eye or don't fall under his reach of power?

 

I know that most of the original Chaos Legions don't seem to have a single Chapter "Master" for the lack of a better word leading a legion as a whole, but separate Warlords that command a faction of the overall legion...Is that assumption also correct?

 

Thanks,

G

 

Hmmm it depends...

 

As an individual (by himself) he is extremely powerful. I don't know if it is fear, charisma, great leadership or what but he has also been able to bring the black legion from the edge of the abyss. He now runs one of the strongest and most unified legions (as far as we can tell...). So that makes him dangerous as a chaos lord. Also a number of marines including entire war bands from other legions have sworn to him/joined the black legion.

 

Then he has the ability to get many other lords to join him for his campaigns, either they agree with his plans in the short term or they think they are getting something out of it. For the likes of Typhus that might just be spreading Nurgle's plague, for a war band of Khorne it might be taking skulls, and that sorcerer of Tzeentch is after arcane knowledge... The Iron warriors might just want that forge world for themselves.

 

Are there leaders who match him for power? Probably not. Are there leaders who could? Yes. Depending on how big Huron's forces actually are (I don't think they are that big.), Huron could one day match him if he keeps growing. However I imagine Big A. would take action if he though Huron was a threat. The other answer is the Primarchs. They are still around and in most cases doing nothing. Should one decide to call his forces to war you should expect a serious number of people to join them (from their legion at least), however Angron is the only primarch who has taken any meaningful action against the Imperium as far as I can tell. Magnus has tried some revenge against the SWs and who knows what Alpharius is doing :lol:

 

As for legion command structure.

 

Primarchs rule but most primarchs don't really pay any attention to their legions anymore. After the primarchs it varies from legion to legion and some legions are more fractured than others. The Word Bearers seem to have a central command in the form of a council of apostles, but I'm not sure how much power this has.

 

The World Eaters on the other hand are completely shattered. However before Angron was banished he did gather up some 50K berzerkers; although some of these may not have been World Eaters.

[Kol Saresk]

Abaddon is powerful enough to gather enough forces to launch Thirteen Crusades, Twelve of which are considered failures by all except those who knew the true objectives of each Crusade. He also has the resources to design something like the Defiler and the Planet Killer as well as build two of the Planet Killers. It's not hard to see why people say he is the clone-son of Horus when he can do so much. He has drawn in berzerker-surgeons into his Legion. He has enough resources at his disposal that he can attract entire Renegade Chapters to travel from the Maelstrom to the Eye. So I would say, alot.

[Prot]

So just how powerful is Abaddon?, Fluff wise mostly...

 

Almost as powerful as Huron!

 

/ducks the tomatoes being thrown at him.

 

Always liked the idea of Abe, but he's been written horribly over the years. I see him as the past of chaos. He has the toys, and rules by fear. Huron is the future. Charismatic, and just crazy enough to make sure you listen to him. He's also tactically superior IMHO, using any and all weapons available to him, including 'unorthodox' military units.

 

Even the Horus Heresy portrays Abe as a school yard bully ruling by fear, threatening to beat you if you don't give him your lunch money. Not someone I'd associate with any true tactical acumen.

 

Abe's the old school wrecking ball, where Huron is the sharpened dagger. Just my personal thoughts..... But if you're just looking at _Personal_ power, like the ability to win arm wrestling contests, then yes, I believe Abe would win the majority of those. :P

[Sception]

Personal power: with the blessings and artifacts of chaos he's collected he's probably around pre-herasy primarch level in personal power.

 

Military power: it is difficult if not impossible to pin down the exact strength of a chaos legion, however, with just his black legion and the forces directly serving it (dark mechanicus forges, bound daemons, mutants, cultists, and feral warrior hordes, titans and warships, etc) I would approximate the Warmaster's military strength as approximately equivalent to 12 - 16 space marine chapters, and 2-4 each of guard regiments, subsector fleets, and titan legions, plus a considerable number of bound daemons and dark mechanicus monstrosities. However, these forces are frequently somewhat dispersed, pursuing individual missions assigned by the Warmaster, individual goals of the warlords that control them directly, or even supporting the actions of other Chaos forces in exchange for their support in past or future crusades. The Black Legion is typically only pulled together during a crusade, at which point their numbers swell to twice or even as much as three times their usual strength, or more, in the case of his latest crusade.

 

As of the 13th crusade, the Warmaster's forces are approximately equal to that of an imperial Battlefleet - the military strength of an entire sector. Of course, that's by a wide margin the strongest force that Abaddon has ever been able to assemble at one time, and the disposition of the forces is biased towards infantry strength rather than naval might - though the naval forces are supported by three 'super weapons': the rebuilt planet killer, and two fully functional Blackstone Fortresses, one of which has been possessed by a shard of the essence of the Chaos God Slaanesh, the closest to a physical manifestation of a chaos god that the galaxy has ever seen.

 

Even so, the full might of the forces of chaos are dwarfed more than five times over by those of the Imperium, and many of the mercenary and allied war bands bloating Abbadon's host will pull out the moment they start facing significant resistance, to say nothing of the daemonic hosts that are physically sustained in the material world only by his victory and will be unable to continue participating in any sort of protracted combat.

 

The long war has always been something of a guerrilla affair, with a small, embittered force needling at the side of a much larger and more powerful body - keeping it off balance so that it cannot effectively defend itself from the other threats that surround it, from internal corruption to the external threats posed by Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, Tau, and so forth. Even with this final great incursion, Abaddon is relying on the fact that the Imperial forces in Segmentum Solar have just been severely weakened by Hivefleet Leviathan, and that Imperial forces embattled elsewhere in the galaxy cannot simply be pulled at a moments notice from their current engagements.

[Morollan]

A quick question but what is the best source of stories about the Black Crusades? I'm intrigued by the Blackstone Fortresses, Planet Killers etc but are there any novels featuring them?

[Sception]

for some info on the planet killer & blackstones, check out the battlefleet gothic game. Also, look for the eye of terror campaign book for some info on the 13th crusade. If you look hard enough, you might be able to find the campaign progress reports that were published on the online sight, as well as white dwarf progress summaries from that time.

 

Keep in mind, though, that most of the previous 13th crusade info was retconned when the timeline was rolled back to before its start, and Abaddons goal in the campaign was changed from 'demolish Cadia to allow for free chaos travel into and out of the eye & establish a chaos controlled presence in the area of space surrounding the eye' to 'destroy earth it self by ripping reality apart from the eye to Terra.

 

I'm not especially happy with that change, because the former allowed Abaddon's 13th crusade to be victorious without the entire game ending, while the latter doesn't. The former, Abaddon could be successful and the timeline could still advance (and that's exactly what happened, for a time). The latter, well if the timeline ever does advance then it can only do so if the 13th crusade was an outright failure, or at the very least is retconned again.

[Morollan]

Okay thanks.

[Kol Saresk]

Hey Malisteen, quick question about the Black Fortresses. The one that is possessed by a shard of Slaanesh was an event in the EoT Campaign right? So since the campaign has been retconned, wouldn't now just be a normal, corrupted Black Fortress since the event never happened?

[Biaz]

Hey Malisteen, quick question about the Black Fortresses. The one that is possessed by a shard of Slaanesh was an event in the EoT Campaign right? So since the campaign has been retconned, wouldn't now just be a normal, corrupted Black Fortress since the event never happened?

 

In addition to this, didn't Eldrad get eaten by the Slaanesh Blackstone (or am I on drugs?)? Does this mean he's... not... eaten?

[Vesper]

Hey Malisteen, quick question about the Black Fortresses. The one that is possessed by a shard of Slaanesh was an event in the EoT Campaign right? So since the campaign has been retconned, wouldn't now just be a normal, corrupted Black Fortress since the event never happened?

 

In addition to this, didn't Eldrad get eaten by the Slaanesh Blackstone (or am I on drugs?)? Does this mean he's... not... eaten?

 

Yup, technically. Even if it's really likely to happen.

[Sception]

Current continuity: Abby has two fully functional blackstone fortresses. More than that is unknown. Whether one is still possessed by Slaanesh is unknown - yes the campaign event that said so has been retconned away by the revised timeline, but the possession itself has not been explicitly contradicted.

 

Look at it this way: Abaddon wants to rip the eye of Terror open, dragging its unreality out across the galaxy until it reaches earth itself. That is canonically his big plan now. How much sense would it make if he was planning on using the essence of Slaanesh itself to do it, the very god whose birth spawned the Eye of Terror in the first place?

 

The Chosen of Abaddon have also been seemingly dropped in the new book, but haven't been officially retconned, and if they remain then so may the quest Abaddon sent a couple of them on to retrieve the 'heart of chaos' at the center of the Eye of Terror, a quest which Korda successfully achieved. How else to undertake the bonding of a chaos god to one of the blackstone fortresses than via the 'heart of chaos' found at the center of the warp storm of its birth? More to the point, what else would one use such an artifact to do?

[Minsc]

Is this perception correct? Are there any other Chaos Lords that stand to him eye to eye or don't fall under his reach of power?

 

As malisteen has pointed out, Abaddon has undisputedly the biggest millitary warhost at his disposal out of all the major CSM-players.

As for personal prowess however, Angron, Magnus, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Perturabo and Lorgar could probably best him in a 1v1, however neither of the Daemon Primarchs have any good reason to do it.

I'm not even sure about the Daemon Primarch's opinion about Abaddon.

[Brother Ambroz]

I believe we'll find out, if ADB does do the book mentioned earlier somewhere on this forum. He's been horribly depicted so far, with a few exceptions.

 

As far as comparing him to Huron goes, well Huron might be getting the numbers to close on Abby but then again most of Huron's are probably just renegades. Abby has the titans and traitor chapters/fragments of the legions with him. In physical ability I think old Abby would smash Huron to the ground, but that's just my opinion.

[Kol Saresk]

Current continuity: Abby has two fully functional blackstone fortresses. More than that is unknown. Whether one is still possessed by Slaanesh is unknown - yes the campaign event that said so has been retconned away by the revised timeline, but the possession itself has not been explicitly contradicted.

Fair point. I guess I assumed that since (IIRC) they found out about the Possession when Eldrad tried to purify it and instead he got eaten, that it must have happened around then or so.

[Trevak Dal]

Is this perception correct? Are there any other Chaos Lords that stand to him eye to eye or don't fall under his reach of power?

 

As malisteen has pointed out, Abaddon has undisputedly the biggest millitary warhost at his disposal out of all the major CSM-players.

As for personal prowess however, Angron, Magnus, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Perturabo and Lorgar could probably best him in a 1v1, however neither of the Daemon Primarchs have any good reason to do it.

I'm not even sure about the Daemon Primarch's opinion about Abaddon.

 

Yeah, I think besides Abaddon, maybe the Word Bearers are still pretty much 'together'. He really accomplished an amazing thing: His Legion was pretty much dead, with various Captains/Sargents/wannabe Warlords breaking off and leaving like the Emperor's Children and World Eaters. They were hounded by the other legions-pretty much Ganged up on because of Horus dying like a bitch and they nearly met his fate.

 

But Abaddon stopped that. He reunited his men, became more than who he previously was, and carried what was left of his Legion on his shoulders. He turned a scared, remnant of a Legion and turned it into the most feared and respected force inside the Eye of Terror (and arguably out too). The Black Legion is probably the only warband that can rightfully call itself a 'Legion' except maybe the Word Bearers.

 

Huron at the end of the Badab War books (Damn, it's surprising that it's only been roughly-100 years in the timeline!) has a lot of Geneseed, 200 or so Tiger/Astral Claws, and maybe a couple hundred more Mantis Warriors and Lamenters who probably dropped flags/fell to chaos, not counting a squad or two here and there of other chapters who have just said "Yo ho ho a pirates life for me," as well as Huron's experience at boarding actions and the nature of the Maelstrom's chaos forces, he's probably been trying to build himself a "Red Legion" out of the Chaos Warbands he's encountered and has made powerful strides. The short story Bitter End by Sarah Cawkwell seems to suggest that Huron has the blessing of "The Four" through the Haymadra critter.

 

About that, I wonder if the 4 chaos gods power extends beyond the Milky Way or if they are all localized from this galaxy. I wonder what Warp Space is like in the black between galaxies.

 

If they Tyranids have truly devoured multiple Galaxies...supposedly full of creatures that don't want to be eaten, what becomes of them after they leave?

[Minsc]

I wonder what Warp Space is like in the black between galaxies.

 

Don't go there... ^_^

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I think besides Abaddon, maybe the Word Bearers are still pretty much 'together'. He really accomplished an amazing thing: His Legion was pretty much dead, with various Captains/Sargents/wannabe Warlords breaking off and leaving like the Emperor's Children and World Eaters. They were hounded by the other legions-pretty much Ganged up on because of Horus dying like a bitch and they nearly met his fate.

 

But Abaddon stopped that. He reunited his men, became more than who he previously was, and carried what was left of his Legion on his shoulders. He turned a scared, remnant of a Legion and turned it into the most feared and respected force inside the Eye of Terror (and arguably out too). The Black Legion is probably the only warband that can rightfully call itself a 'Legion' except maybe the Word Bearers.

Not to mention he turned around took out some pretty high profile targets. Like IIRC, the first thing he did was attack the EC, destroy Horus' body and killed the clones then attacked a Word Bearers Fortress. I mean he turned around and did some serious damage before he actually started regrowing his own Legion.

[Sception]

Actually, the Word Bearers canonically have barely a 10th the military strength of the Black Legion. I imagine this is due to continually sending out apostles & their bodyguards to serve with & preach to other chaos forces in the eye, or nurture fledgling heresies outside of the eye. If you're looking for another legion that still has considerable coherent strength, I don't know, maybe Iron Warriors?

[Lepaca]

Actually, the Word Bearers canonically have barely a 10th the military strength of the Black Legion. I imagine this is due to continually sending out apostles & their bodyguards to serve with & preach to other chaos forces in the eye, or nurture fledgling heresies outside of the eye. If you're looking for another legion that still has considerable coherent strength, I don't know, maybe Iron Warriors?

 

Also they don't recruit as much and care more about the origin of their gene-seed.

AFAIK most of the Word Bearers in 40k still carry Lorgar's gene-seed while the Black Legion consists of all kinds of Heresy-era veterans of different legions, more recent renegade marines and CSMs bred by using captured gene-seed from loyalist chapters.

Therefore the Black Legion has the potential to grow much much faster.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually, the Word Bearers canonically have barely a 10th the military strength of the Black Legion. I imagine this is due to continually sending out apostles & their bodyguards to serve with & preach to other chaos forces in the eye, or nurture fledgling heresies outside of the eye. If you're looking for another legion that still has considerable coherent strength, I don't know, maybe Iron Warriors?

I wouldn't really consider the Iron Warriors "cohesive". IIRC, ever since Perturabo locked himself up, they've been constantly attacking each other for perceived, or actual, slights and I don't think I've ever heard of a joint-Grand Company effort since the Iron Cage. Every chance I'm wrong though.

[Sception]

Agh. Yeah. Fair point.

 

Ok, so literally none of the other heresy era legions have anything like the cohesive military might of the Black, although if any of the daemon primarchs were to get off their arse and call a gathering, you can bet that many if not most of the disparate chaos forces that trace their origins to that primarch's legion would drop what they were doing to be counted, resulting in a fairly significant host (if still not on the black legion level) overnight, though even one of the daemon primarchs would be unable to call in even the tentative allegiance of the rest of the Eye, the way Abaddon has in the 13th.

[Aegnor]

In addition to serving Abaddon out of fear or greed, there's another reason why guys like Typhus, the Word Bearer council, Khârn and even the daemon primarchs would flock to his banner and join in his Crusades. He is the chosen champion of the Gods. They want Abaddon to unify the forces of Chaos for the Crusades, and presumably Nurgle tells Typhus that, Slaanesh tells Fulgrim, they all tell the Word Bearers - "go follow Abbadon". Khârn would come just to shed blood, but Khorne also tells his champions to do so.

 

I think Abaddon properly personally controls more military might than any other single person in the galaxy, aside from the Hivemind (if you count that as a 'person').

 

Abaddon, in terms of military might, would smash Huron. In a personal fight, you'd say he'd probably kill Huron most of the time, but I think the true answer would be that who would win would be in the lap of the Gods, literally. They are both chosen champions and derive lots of their power from the blessings the Gods give them. It would likely come down to who the gods wanted to win - the other might find their powers fading at a particularly inconvenient time!

 

As for the point that the new objective of the 13th Black Crusade now means the Crusade has to end in failure or mean the destruction of the entire setting - that's always been the case. The 13th was always going to be the last and greatest crusade. But even so, it could end in a partial failure that would still count as a huge win for Chaos and significantly hasten the death of the Imperium and the galaxy. Say he doesn't manage to expand the Eye all the way to Terra and is stopped well before that, BUT in the process still manages to double the size of the Eye, destroying Cadia, the worlds and bases of the Angels Praeses, Ulthwé craftworld, etc. The objective of the crusade failed, but the good guys are still in deep deep doggy-do. Chaos will have much greater rein to raid the Imperium and bleed it dry. The Imperium would be mortally wounded in my estimation, even if it took another few hundred years for Chaos to regroup from its defeat and press home the advantage.

[Sception]

Papa Smurf directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly, controlls probably about the same military might as Abaddon even at the onset of the 13th crusade, as he's more or less the king of an entire Imperial Sector, and the largest (though not the most heavily populated or fortified) one to boot. And if you count the high lords of Terra as one body, then yeah, again, the total might of the imperium (if you include ultra-land) outmatches Abby's five times over, but is engaged in about a dozen major conflicts not even counting minor battles & insurrections, so it's not like they can just pull it all together on a whim.

[Aegnor]

Calgar doesn't command all those Chapters the way Abaddon does. He is hugely respected and influential, but not the absolute dictator over them. Similarly, the High Lords are not a single person - they're a council with competing agendas and (practical/logistical) limits upon their power. The Imperium as a whole is way more powerful, but it can never be united under one banner the way Abaddon does with the Eye of Terror.

 

Ghazkull at the height of his Waaagh might control the same power as Abaddon.

 

One interesting thing about the new objective of the 13th BC - it should now galvanise the entire Necron race to oppose Abaddon. IIRC they were on the "good" side in the EoT campaign, but they're no longer looking at an internal war amongst primitive usurpers that they might take a passing interest in - they're looking at the expansion of the hated warp across half of their galaxy.