Walkers and Additional Melee Weapons

[BlacKnight]

So I'm not really sure if I'm playing this right so I thought I'd check here to make sure.

 

The way I have my defiler set up is with what used to be 2 additional dreadnought close combat weapons, but now I've been saying one is a Power Scourge. So my Defiler now technically has 3 power fists, 1 power scourge and of course the battle cannon.

 

This is how think it should be played:

 

The additional power fist gives me an one additional attack more than what I already would have from having two power fists that come stock with the defiler. So he would get 5 attacks with power fists because I get +2A for having two additional power fists after the first one (which is also inline with the new army builder update that includes the new CSM book), but I only get those 5 attacks if I use power fists. Having the power scourge gives me the option to attack at Initiative 3 with 3 attacks at S8 AP2 and reduce the WS of the models touching the defiler by D3.

 

Am I playing this correctly? Does having two different melee options on the defiler work like it would on an infantry model? I just chose which one i want to fight with at the beginning of every fight phase and determine the number of attacks based on which weapon I'm using that phase?

[Legatus]

The Defiler would be attacking at Initiative 3 even when using the power fists, because walkers are not affected by the "unwieldy" penalty. And you don't need to attack with the scourge to reduce the enemy models' WS. Their WS will be reduced simply by the Defiler being equipped with it.

Traditionally walkers were not affected by different special weapon types either and simply got bonus attacks for additional weapons, no matter the type. But unfortunately the 6th Edition rules are not entirely clear on that matter. (Probably because walkers usually only get power fists and nothing else.)

[Fibonacci]

I get +2A for having two additional power fists after the first one

All you ever get is +1 for having 2 melee weapons. Check the rules for number of attacks -- I don't have the book handy or I would give a page number but it is in the Assault Phase section. It says right out that having more than two does not gain any additional attacks.

 

Also, they do work like normal for having different melee weapons. Pick the one you want to use for that fight sub-phase. You even get to keep the +1 Attack for having two melee weapons equipped.

[Legatus]

Since 5th Edition, walkers get further bonus attacks for each additional close combat weapon after the first. (Presumably specifically to accomodate Defilers.) In 6th Edition that rule can be found on page 84 of the Rulebook.

[Calnus]

I would add the Ork Deff Dread to the example, but Legatus is perfectly correct.

 

So for your Defiler, you get base +1 for having 2 DCCW (should be in the profile), +1 for your third DCCW, and then a further +1 for the Scourge. And you can pick whether all those attacks are made with the S and AP of the Scourge or a DCCW each fight sub-phase. Since you're on a walker, unwieldy doesn't matter and therefore both options share initiative.

 

+edit: spelling+

[Fibonacci]

Since 5th Edition, walkers get further bonus attacks for each additional close combat weapon after the first. (Presumably specifically to accomodate Defilers.) In 6th Edition that rule can be found on page 84 of the Rulebook.

Ah. I missed that. But them I still mis-remember 4th edition rules far too often.

 

So how does the Specilist Weapon rule work with this? The power scurge is not a specialist weapon but the fists are.

 

3 Attacks base.

Scruge for base.

first power fist is specialist so adds nothing.

+1 for the second PF

+1 for 3rd PF

 

5 total?

[Acebaur]

Is the Scourge a DCCW? If so then you'd get +1 for that when combines with the first PF. (unless it comes with the PF stock in which case the bonus attack is already included in it's profile)

 

first power fist is specialist so adds nothing.

 

Specialist rule doesnt apply to DCCW. The dreadnought rules say that you get +1 attack for having two DCCW's and +1 for each additional

[greatcrusade08]

Is the Scourge a DCCW? If so then you'd get +1 for that when combines with the first PF. (unless it comes with the PF stock in which case the bonus attack is already included in it's profile)

 

first power fist is specialist so adds nothing.

 

Specialist rule doesnt apply to DCCW. The dreadnought rules say that you get +1 attack for having two DCCW's and +1 for each additional

 

i think the problem is, that defilers/hellbrutes etc, dont have DCCW, they have power fists, which ARE covered by the specialist rule.

ive always played it that the scourge doesnt give a bonus attack, but you pay the points to reduce the enemy Ws and increase the effectivness of the fists

[Fibonacci]

Is the Scourge a DCCW? If so then you'd get +1 for that when combines with the first PF. (unless it comes with the PF stock in which case the bonus attack is already included in it's profile)

 

first power fist is specialist so adds nothing.

 

Specialist rule doesnt apply to DCCW. The dreadnought rules say that you get +1 attack for having two DCCW's and +1 for each additional

"If a Walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains +1 bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first. Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a Walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks. If one of its additional weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat wepon, the Walker loses the bonuses conferred by the Dreadnought close combat weapon."

This does not counter the specialist weapon rule, if simply states that you loses the 2X strength or whatever that DCCW normally gives.

 

And for what it's worth, the DCCW is going away. C:CSM, being a 6th ed codex, does not have any DCCW. So the power scourge is Melee, Flail. The power fists are all the same as any other: Melee, Specialist, Unwieldy. Unwieldy rule does not count for walkers as per the rule itself. Specialist weapon I don't see any exception for. So I am curious if you get +1 for having a non-specialist weapon along with two specialist weapons of not.

 

So maybe ...

3 base attacks.

+1 for 2 power fists (you get the bonus attack for having 2 specialist weapons)

+1 for third powerfist (satisfies both the specialist weapon and walker melee weapon rules)

+1 for Power Scourge. Satisfies the walker melee weapon rules. It is itself not a specialist weapon so does not fall uner the specialist weapon rules; even if it did, there are two specialist weapons equipped so nothing is denying the bonus there.

 

Total of 6 attacks?

[BlacKnight]

So it looks like whether the Defiler has 5 or 6 attacks when equipped with all melee is up in the air at the moment.

 

In the recent Army Builder update equipping the Power Scourge doesn't change the number of attacks you get. So I think I'm leaning towards 5 at the moment, but if you get to use the -D3 to enemy weaponskill in conjunction with powerfists it makes sense that that particular loadout of Defiler gets 6 attacks.

[Gentlemanloser]

Are both the Walker and Unwieldy rules Advanced?

 

If so, then the Player who's turn it is gets to choose which over rides the other.

 

In your turn, your defiler gets +1A from the Scourge. In your opponents Assault Phase, you don't.

 

Simple. ;)

 

Illogical, but it's really a half :cussed lame cop out of a rule that GW has introduced about player turns...

[Legatus]

The walker close combat rules and the Defiler rules are just insufficiently described.

 

In 4th Edition, walkers were not affected by the regular rules of "fighting with two weapons", which included the clause that a model githing with a special close combat weapon and a different weapon could not claim the bonus attack for fighting with two weapons. Walkers had their own rule set for fighting with multiple weapons, which granted them +1 attack for each additional weapon after the first. But in 6th Edition, the rule that prevents a model from claimimng the bonus attack is now not specifically for "modles fighting with two weapons", but is instead a rule inherent in the weapon's profile.

 

Also, in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos, the bonus attack for the Defiler's second powerfist was said to be included in his profile, and was one of his 3 base attacks. But the 6th Edition Codex does not say that, so presumably, since attacks for additional weapons usually are not included in a model's profile, the Defiler now has 4 default attacks. 3 from his Profile and +1 for his second power fist.

 

I.e. if this was 4th Edition, the Defiler would unambiguously have 5 Attacks. 3 in its profile and +2 for the two added optional close combat weapons.

 

In 6th Edition, as far as I can tell, he gets 5 Attacks as well. 3 in its profile, +1 for its built in second power fist, +1 for the optional third power fist. I would be included to say that he even gets a 6th bonus attack for the power scourge, since the "specialist weapons" rule seems to specifically adress the "fights with two weapons" bonus, which is the general rule that applies to models, but not what applies to walkers, but that is not entirely clear.

 

I am not certain that the Defiler is not still meant to have the attack for his second power fist built in (it was in the last Codex, but the current does not say so) and I am not certain that the specialist weapon is meant to apply to walkers (it did not on 4th Edition, and might not now).

 

Two things, at least, are pretty certain: The Defiler can attack at Initiative 3 with his power fists, as he is not affected by the 'unwieldy' rule, and the power scourge will have 'flail' effect even if the defiler is not attacking with it, since that effect is not dependant on any attacks being made. There is no need to attack with the S8 power scourge over the S10 powerfists ever, unless the defiler has lost all of its power fists to 'weapon destroyed' results.

 

So, 5 Attacks for a filly CCW Defiler seem to be a safe bet, even though it might be 6. All of the attacks are made with the power fists, but the 'flail' rule still applies.