The Nature of Khorne - looking past GW's abolsutes

[Nemesis Divine]

So it's obvious that Khorne embodies violence, aggression, hate and such things related to battle. But I've noticed a two-sidedness that I can't ignore. On one hand, Khorne lusts for blood like a psychopathic killer, not caring if his own are cut down. He revels in violence like a child in a candy store, and his followers (in this case Berzerkers) share his madness and battle-craze. Who cares about tactics? Run into the fight and kill! But on the other hand, he comes across as an honorable general, embodying warfare and strategy. In this form (notable in the organized Blood Pact warrior-cult) he represents military superiority, organization and cunning. So where do we draw the line?

 

If Khorne's a mad god of bloodletting and all-out attack with little thought of strategy, can he also be a militaristic general capable of feeling honor? What's honorable about killing your own men? It seems to me that the Space Marine worshipers of Khorne much prefer the bloodier of the two, and human devotees, or at least the Blood Pact, follow him more like a great general and tactician. Granted, they're only human, so many of them are still rapists and murderers, but they're not angry all the time. Do Space Marines under Khorne suffer their thirst for killing because they aren't as human anymore? They're on another level, not needing to care about morals and "human concerns." Or am I just looking too far into it instead of accepting, "It's Chaos, so it's beyond understanding"?

 

What do you think about Khorne's portrayal? I don't really want to focus so much on his followers' actions, as they're few and far in-between, but rather Khorne himself and how he perceives the universe.

[Babel_Triumphant]

Khorne, as with every chaos deity, has a broad domain. He is the god of anger, violence, strategy, honor and martial pride. A berserker would empower khorne, but so would a samurai completely dedicated to the art of war.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

I have always imagined that Khorne, like the other Chaos Gods, ultimately has very simple needs - for Khorne this is that hate exists and blood is spilt in his name. Whilst he himself is a twisted paragon of rage, martial prowess, anger, war and fury, this underlying constant means that he is also capable of being expressed in a number of different ways.

 

It is similar to figures such as Brahma or Khaine; deities who are one and yet many. Like them, Khorne is Khorne the Hunter (who appreciates the kill at the end of a stealthy hunt), Khorne the Wise (to whom the blood spilled by an army reflects well on the hatred of the general at its head) Khorne the Noble (who respects the grace with with a pistolier duelist slays) and Khorne the Berserker - who as we know roars at the glorious charge of warriors. Khorne can be all of these things, even when they seem incompatible, because ultimately they all support the hatred and bloodlust that forms the crux of Khorne's theology.

 

To explain why Space Marines differ from human soldiers when they fall to Khorne - its because of their own nature. Space Marines are warriors first, soldiers second, and have been gene-sculpted and psychoindoctrinated to be shock and awe weapons. Their entire life is spent being worked up into holy rage, being led in hating the xenos and the traitor by their Chaplains and Commanders - all that they have ever known is the crucible of the bitterest and most extreme fighting and so when they fall it is onto these certainties and memories that they fall.

By contrast the likes of the Imperial Guard are not warriors. They are not trained to exemplify any form of combat or to seek out one-on-one fights, they are soldiers who have been trained to ensure the most efficient plan for spilling enemy blood can be enacted. They are all but broken and remade as (idealy) little more than a walking lasgun that will follow their orders. As such when they fall they use this regimented approach to keep some sanity and to express their new loyalties, meaning that it is easier for them to form groups such as the Blood Pact than roaving bands of gladiators or berzerkers.

 

The Chaos Gods are not 'stupid' - they understand that it is easier to change an allegiance than a mindset. Space Marines are brutal warriors, and Guardsmen are obedient soldiers - why try and change that when you can simply give them a new enemy? By the same logic if Khorne were to turn his influence to an academic (say a scholar and lecturer on Imperial history) he would do so by exploiting that individual' sense of importance or their love of knowledge, not by trying to make them soldiers. The gods represent a broad sweep of linked concepts and related emotions and it is by exploiting all of them that they are able to feed the core concept at heir heart (be it hate, change, excess or decay) on the scale needed to maintain their part in the Great Game.

[Julgolax]

Honestly, since it's all gothic fantasy, you can do what you want with Khorne and as long as it makes sense for the god specifically, it should fly.

 

My Black Fiends break most of the "khorne rules". My warriors fell to chaos because they had to, Khorne favored them so they worship him as a god of war. They pay homage to Khorne through the collection of skulls and the bloodletting of battle. None of my warriors are drooling, snarling psychopaths, in fact my warriors are all disciplined, efficient, and quiet brutal. Not to mention the color scheme I have planned is basically just like the Black Legion but the gold is more of a bronze/brass with chains, skulls, daemon mutations, and marks of Khorne.

 

I mean it sort of goes for all the gods. Not every follower of Slaanesh has to be a hermaphroditic naked mole-rat with fetishes for sound weapons and acid cubes. I've always seen Slaanesh worshippers as an army of slavers and perfectionists. I had an idea for an army led by a sorcerer who was obsessed with spreading the influence of Slaanesh through the capture, perversion, and infiltration of women AND men into flesh bars in the underworld of Imperial Hive Worlds, and when he wanted, he activated the cells and these cults spread into the hive worlds turning them into spires of harems, torture galleys, and palaces of Slaanesh worship.

 

Chaos gives you the freedom to explore the darker possibilities of the 40K universe.

[Dammeron]

Khorne has become increasingly myopic in terms of his portrayal in 40K background since his inception. Time was he was portrayed as a very general kind of deity, with a wide range of aspects and ambiguities, just like his fellow dark gods.

 

Khorne's essence is derived from the human emotions of hate and fury, but even that suggest certain complexities: he is not only the cry of the barbarian brutally slaying his tribal enemy; he is also the scream of injustice of a child for its murdered parents; he is vengeance, martial honour and obsessive devotion to ideological causes, to the dereliction of all else. Whereas Tzeentch and Slaanesh, his antitheses in the Chaos pantheon, are patrons of the ego, pandering to those who seek personal glory or fulfilment, Khorne, like Nurgle, is a God of the selfless; he favours those who abandon all sense of self or personality to causes, preferably military ones, though he is just as likely to favour the assassin, the murderer; the paladin, the crusader or the avenger.

 

Were I to include any Khorne Berserkers in my army (which I wouldn't, as I'm a Slaanesh fan-boy :eek ), they would be Crusaders; a unit of silent, holy warriors, who barely speak until battle is joined, at which point they explode into a controlled, martial fury, butchering with elegant brutality, 'til their enemies lie severed and bleeding at their feet.

 

Les we forget, Khorne is also the lord of war in ALL of its aspects, and favours those who create or deploy engines and machines of war. An army of Khornate technologists is now entirely possible, and would make for an extremely interesting force on the battlefield.

[Watch Commander Danek]

Khorne is and always has been a visceral god of war, rage and bloodshed. He prefers close combat because it is hands on. Truely visceral. The image of him tied to martial prowess I've always attributed to those who start down his path and how they rationalize their march towards damnation. Proud soldiers justifying their bloodlust and romaticizing the frenzy.

[Kraull the Rampager]

Were I to include any Khorne Berserkers in my army (which I wouldn't, as I'm a Slaanesh fan-boy tongue.gif ), they would be Crusaders; a unit of silent, holy warriors, who barely speak until battle is joined, at which point they explode into a controlled, martial fury, butchering with elegant brutality, 'til their enemies lie severed and bleeding at their feet.

 

That sir, was an awesome idea. Really dig that.

[Jiron]

I see a problem in the word "honor". For example in ancient Rome, to die by the hand of gladiator in arena was an honorable death even while the victim has been blindfolded an unarmed.

Medieval showed us honor duels when one of the participants has been digged in the groud knee deep.

So from the Khornate point of view, it is honour to be in the front of assault. If your brother fails to claim such an honor why should he live?

It is honorable to slay your enemy in close combat where even unarmed foe can defend himself, not to shoot him from afar.

It is honorable to compare your strength with the opponent and it is as honourable to die by his hand in the name of khorne.

 

From my point of view... Khorne is just and as he see it, the close combat is his justice. The stronger, the better, the more furious lives while the weaker, the worse dies. In Blood we are all equal.

[Loher]

I really can't find where you took the idea that Khorne is honorable ON PURPOSE. Khorne is the rage, tha violence, the bloodshed and do not care for honor at all, as long he can reclaim skulls for his throne. Nothing can be more far from a samurai (yay my laurea has some use XD).

Fluffwise, zerkers implants overcome their search for martial skills, and turn them into psychotic war machines. They would kill women, kids and weaks alike. That is (at least nominally though not really true) the difference between zerkers and a "so called" honorable space marine.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Khorne is and always has been a visceral god of war, rage and bloodshed. He prefers close combat because it is hands on. Truely visceral. The image of him tied to martial prowess I've always attributed to those who start down his path and how they rationalize their march towards damnation. Proud soldiers justifying their bloodlust and romaticizing the frenzy.

 

True. But I would add that I think that it's easy, with our player's-eye-view to lose sight of how the Ruinous Powers work and interact with folks in realspace on a wider level. We see the gods themselves, their heralds, and their greatest champions, and we know that underneath all the excuses and lies what they really are right down at their core level.

 

But as creators (and, momentarily, during critiques) we need to abandon our perch and our truth and try to understand what it's like for mortals who have not yet reached the point of fatal understanding, or who still cling to their illusions. Having a Khornate warband that exalts, or even merely cloaks themselves, in the "warrior virtues" or romantic chivalric codes does not deny what Khorne really is, and it does not redefine what Khorne really wants. After all, any blood spilt in violence is claimed by Khorne as tribute. If Khorne does not care whence the blood flows, only that it does, then Khorne is equally pleased by the quixotic so long as their windmills BLEED. What this does is lift tediously narrow constraints when creating a character or warband, and that is a Good Thing.

[Watch Commander Danek]

Very poetically written, and I agree completely. Some here may remember hearing of the "Teeth of Khorne" - World Eater heavy weapon specialists who preferred the gory punch of the autocannon or frag missiles shredding their prey. carnage comes in a variety of ways, and creating a characterful warband can show that easily.

 

That said, one doesn't have to be a World Eater driven mad by Butcher's Nails to froth at the mouth and find rational thought burned away by the passion of violence. Eventually all who serve the Blood God find his ferocious madness waiting for them.

[Yogi]

Khorne to me is only really about killing and the emotions involved anger, hate in the end. The rest of it is his followers interpretations. I'd also say the closer to a chaos god, the more you understand the madder you would be.

 

So you could pray to khorne for strength fight normally and with honour and more then one tactic.

 

Or you could be a genocidal maniac rewired to feel rage. Even if you didn't worship Khorne you would be a bit loopy.

 

GW seems to illustrate that the further down the path you get the more berzerker like you become.

[Brother Ambroz]

I see a problem in the word "honor". For example in ancient Rome, to die by the hand of gladiator in arena was an honorable death even while the victim has been blindfolded an unarmed.

 

When you give this example, aren't they the defeated gladiators while the victorious one executes him? So it's not really quite as black and white. I like to think of it like the Predator where they seek opponents who will give them a challenge.

I really can't find where you took the idea that Khorne is honorable ON PURPOSE. Khorne is the rage, tha violence, the bloodshed and do not care for honor at all, as long he can reclaim skulls for his throne.

 

It's in there, it might be from the old Slaves to Darkness books but I definitely remember seeing Khorne as the God of martial pride and honor as well.

[Watch Commander Danek]

I remember it being one of those things mentioned in passing in Slaves to Darkness. How he saw the use of magic as being cowardly and without honor. This, coupled with mention of generals falling into worshipping him believing their martial prowess will be rewarded, may be one of those snowball effect things. It wasn't meant to be THAT big a deal, but over time as Khorne worshippers degraded into berserkers it became a point of contention amoungst fans.

 

You have to remember the same book branding magic as cowardly in Khorne's eyes also said he loved the explosive power of cannons (Teeth of Khorne) so much so that Khorne warband leaders in fantasy could be rewarded a boltgun lol

[Mortifis]

The question of honour aside, I definately see Khorne as being the most honest of the Chaos Gods. Everyone knows what he wants :tu:

[Dammeron]

In the ancient Epic book, Renegades, Flesh Hounds of Khorne are described as being manifestations of the Blood God's sense of vengeance and honour, hunting down those amongst the Blood God's followers who betray their honour by hacking down an unarmed or unworthy foe. This isn't out of any sense of altrusim, of course, rather Khorne simply considers such individuals as beneath his attention and that of his followers. Khorne IS the mindless butcher; the wanton, indiscriminate killer, but he is also the martial supremacist, and waxes strong when warriors of skill pitch themselves in equal combat.

[Kol Saresk]

I would suggest Hammer of Daemons as a good reading for this specific topic. Many different aspects of Khorne are shown, both in how his servants worship, altars to specific Aspects that have been raised as well as the nature of the cities on one of his daemon world's.

[Watch Commander Danek]

Out of curiousity what books are out there detailing the World Eater's decent? I know Betrayal is coming out and Butcher's Nails is already out but at a loss for which others to look for.

 

Kinda off topic but not really.

[Kol Saresk]

The World Eaters? That's about it. We see glimpses of them spread throughout the series in Horus Rising, False Gods, Galaxy in Flames, Battle for the Abyss, Tales of Heresy(Short story After Desh'ea), Age of Darkness(Short story The Face of Treachery) and The Outcast Dead. Those are all of the stories I can think of off the top of my head in which the World Eaters make an appearance. I know I'm missing some but it's a start.

[Watch Commander Danek]

Many thanks.

[Vomikron Noxis]

Chosen of Khorne by Anthony Reynolds is well worth a look too (although very much post-heresy, it gives an interesting insight into their background and ideology).

[Kol Saresk]

I just finished listening to that. Even though there are different authors, there is still a remarkable change in attitudes between Butcher's Nails and Chosen of Khorne. One shows where they were at the edge of the precipice, ready to jump, and the other shows where they landed.

[Nehekhare]

I think the word "god" may be misleading here. It's not some personal father figure representing a certain domain within the boundaries of human culture, although he may be percieved as such from a human perspective. Rather, Khorne - like all other chaos gods and daemons - is raw emotion bled from realspace into the warp over billions of years, conglomerating and forming consciousness in the process: pure, materialized Anger, Rage incarnate. Honor is not an emotion, it is a cultural construct formed around those emotions to contain, formalize and control them, thus only being associated with them. Khorne does not care whence the blood flows.

[Kol Saresk]

Khorne does not care whence the blood flows.

Chosen of Khorne might disagree with the culturally constructed statement based on the fact that Khornate warriors are willing to fight and kill each other as much as the enemy.

[Brother Ambroz]

Nehekare, let's not start discussing the divinity of the chaos gods again, that's just annoying and pointless.

 

Kol I don't really understand what you're saying. How's Chosen of Khorne disagreeing with what he said? Khorne does not care where the blood flows is supported by his followers not caring that they're fighting one another. Or is that what you meant and I'm misunderstanding?