cant decided raptors or warp talons?

[cypher 89]

ive just got a box of these guys but cant decide which to use, or which would be most effective , my army is a deathguard army so they will have the MON, just wondering what people opinions for these 2 units are and how they done in games for people.

[Hellrender]

the general consensus is that Warp Talons are overpriced, and sort of fail due to no grenades.

 

Raptors give you very fast special melta delivery, and are a whole lot cheaper. Most people still prefer bikes, but raptors are not far behind. Warp Talons however, are pure flavour, and should not be used in a competive/efficient list.

[Sception]

Of the two, raptors are generally considered to be better, due to points efficiency, assault grenades, and the versatility afforded by their special weapons. Both units, however, are somewhat overshadowed by Chaos Bikes as fast attack options.

 

If you play on tables with sparse terrain, and have problems with power armored adversaries like grey hunters or space marine command or vet squads, then the warp talons might prove useful for you, but otherwise I would look to the other options. If you do run the talons, don't try to use their blinding deep strike rule, just deploy them out of line of sight, and jump from hidey place to hidey place until you can pull off an assault on a unit out of cover. MoN helps somewhat with your lack of assault grenades if you are forced to assault units defending terrain, but it's still not something they'd like to do.

 

Nurgle raptors play similarly, but can take a couple special weapons to either hunt vehicles with meltas, snipe at 2+ save units with plasmas or flush units out of terrain with flamers, and their assault grenades and cheaper wounds mean they don't have to be as leery about assaulting enemy units in cover. They aren't as deadly to marines, but they'll smash up less chewy enemies just as well, and unless you're looking at a dedicated assault unit, even most power armored enemies don't like to be charged by a unit of assault marines with T5 and hatred.

[Vilicate]

For reasons stated above, take raptors.

 

I don't think the Warp Talons are a terrible choice, but I feel like I'd rather have almost twice as many models from the raptors.

[Urauloth]

Warp talons are completely awful, almost anything else in the codex you could spend those points on would be more useful in almost all situations. A combination of their cost, lack of shooting (meaning they sit around for a turn doing nothing but getting shot at after they arrive) and lack of grenades (ridiculously bad on an expensive assault unit) negates any benefit there might be to taking them.

 

Raptors, on the other hand, are great. They're much more sensibly priced, and capable of being made into a decent assault unit while remaining versatile enough to be fulfill other roles.

[Sception]

'after they arrive' implies you're thinking about deep striking them. Don't. Neither raptors nor warp talons like to deep strike, just deploy them on the board, and try to avoid line of sight while you hop to your target. I agree that the talons are poor investments for their points, but they probably won't be stuck 'doing nothing' any longer than raptors will in a given game - reaching assault range in about the same time it would take raptors to get into position to fire their short ranged weaponry. Raptors can take plasma for some longer range, but that's usually better left to CSM squads.

[the jeske]

If your using MoN then buying raptors is like buying higher cost bikers and as others said talons suck . To be honest I dont see the way to make either good in this edition .

anything else for the same points would have worked better.

[cypher 89]

aww ok im mainly adding them as i like them but also want all options for my deathguard, i think im going to go with a raptor squad with 2 melta and maybe a champion with twin lighting claws and MON on the squad which comes in at 160pts for them

in comparison to a 5 man bike squad with 2 meltas, champ with twin lighting claws and mark of nurgle total is 190pts i know you gain a extra Toughness and a twin linked bolters , personally i think it a close call between the 2 squads i like the raptors as they can jump over terrain, gives them a bit more flexibility. but it a close call for me between bikes and raptors.

[the jeske]

both units are only good at anti tank and then there is no gear on the champs other then combi weapons , but bikers can be 3 man strong and raptors have to be 5 man minimum . 5 man for a meq hth unit is just too weak , they would have to be 2 wound each to work . . a hth unit supported by an HQ for raptors is 8 man minimum . bikers work with 6.

[cypher 89]

well i was planning on using my 5 man squad as tank hunters but also i play alot of marine armys so equipping my champ with lighting claws allows me to also hunt things like dev squads or even tatical squads more effectively

[Minsc]

Raptors are much better than Warptalons for the cost 99 times out of 100.

Add the fact that they have frag/krak and can buy special-weapons and that seals the deal.

Warptalons are good model's and a cool unit, but in competetive play you're better off leaving them on the shelf.

 

I'll also agree with what Jeske said earlier: If you use Raptors, don't give them MoN as that essentially makes them slower (and more expensive!) Bikes.

Raptors are best of with MoK or MoS, and imo with 2 meltas, which gives them a versatile anti-tank/anti-infantry role.

[Sception]

OP's playing Death Guard, MoN's just kinda the thing. It's a theme army, so sometimes effectiveness has to take the back seat.

 

Of course, in general death guard tend to go for slower, infantry based forces, rather than emphasizing fast attack. The comparative points inefficiency of MoN for fast attack units, while I doubt it was deliberate, doesn't feel entirely unfluffy in effect, as it will tend to lead nurgle players to focus on infantry troops where the extra wounds helps the added toughness go farther, and where the mark is cheaper anyway, with less efficient nurgle fast attack choices being a rarer sight and existing as support rather than as the main tool of the army.

 

 

Anyway, for nurgle-marked fast slots, I'd say spawn > bikes > raptors > talons. And while you can't give it a nurgle mark, there's certainly something to be said for a pestilential heldrake vomiting balefire, perhaps a conversion using the arachnarok spider to create some sort of giant fly?

[Emperors Immortals]

Either is fine for fun, but id take Talons for fun CC against MEQ, raptors for mobile shooting and fast exploitation of opponents weakness.

 

Both are unfortunalty vastly outshone by bikers.

 

Someone on here was advocating MoN raptors actually, but i cannot find the thread.

[cypher 89]

yeah my force is a deathguard but im kind of basing around them as a pre heresy era, so ive kept a resemblance to there original colour scheme and think they would defiantly of had jump infantry pre heresy ( tho in smaller numbers than most legions) so think it would fit well and if used correctly to just hunt targtes like devastators or hunt tanks they could be really effective.

 

yeah im planning on making a converted helldrake to expand my army, using the orc and goblin spider but thats a little way away at the moment.

[Urauloth]

'after they arrive' implies you're thinking about deep striking them. Don't.

You're right - for some inexplicable reason I was thinking warp talons had to deploy by deep strike. Brain blip there. Deploying normally and cover-hopping makes them considerably less horrid.

 

Raptors can take plasma for some longer range, but that's usually better left to CSM squads.

I don't know, your CSM squad (while a good source of plasma) rarely has the manuverability for flanking fire. Raptors can quite easily hit enemies from incovenient angles to inflict directional casualties and target vehicle rear armour.

[zyl-]

Just as a thought: Do you take unmarked death guard? I don't think I'd take MoN on what is basically going to be used as a tankbusting suicide unit.

[cypher 89]

Just as a thought: Do you take unmarked death guard? I don't think I'd take MoN on what is basically going to be used as a tankbusting suicide unit.

 

i havent , i mean my forces consists of plague marines , typhus , MON terminators and MON oblitirators at the moment which seems to work really well, i could take the raptors unmarked and may try it out, but i was gonna use the squad as tank busters , and maybe counter charges to help my plague marines or even to take out heavy squads so the +1 toughtness.

[x01848m]

If you haven't opened the box yet, you could exchange for bikes. nurgle bikes would really help you with at, disruption, and perhaps some counter attack help. but if you are intent on keeping/using them:

 

If your primary gap is tank busting, as said, go for dual melta raptors. I have one squad like this, but then again I use them in conjunction with Huron, to infiltrate them up to a good jump off point or to outflank, depending on deployment,which is the one case where they are better than bikes. But for death guard I would deep strike them. T5 would give them a better chance of surviving the initial drop (ie enemy fire after they drop in and melt something), which could mean a chance to jump and melt a second target. T5 also helps with weathering explosions from vehicles you destroy.

 

If you are more worried about counter attacking something that hits your lines, go for warp talons. Keep them in the back, and when something charges and is tar pitted by your plague marines or nurgle terminators, which often happens if they are charged, then the talons can jump in to an on-going assault - meaning grenades are meaningless anyway (locked units don't get terrain initiative bonuses against units charging through cover).

 

But for the price of the warp talons you could get almost twice as many raptors and then use them either way (although I would not risk a 10-man raptor squad on melta deep strike, and would instead work on moving them into position).

[techsoldaten]

I agree with just about everything everyone has said in this thread. I have also been thinking about the case for Warp Talons, and may have some perspective on when someone would want to use them.

 

Big Tank Hunting. Drop them in against a unit of Leman Russes. The lightning claws are going to be more effective than the meltas at taking out multiple tanks.

 

But that's it. I can't think of another scenario where I would prefer Warp Talons.

[Spacelizard]

Hypothetically...if warp talons were to get FAQd to have assault grenades do you guys think that they would be worth taking?

 

Also...what if their Warpflame Strike was changed to something along the lines of "any unit wishing to shoot at the Warp Talons in the turn after they deep strike count as BS1"?

[Spacelizard]

Big Tank Hunting. Drop them in against a unit of Leman Russes. The lightning claws are going to be more effective than the meltas at taking out multiple tanks.

 

Uh....Lightning claws do nothing against AV dude.

[Marshal Goderic]

yeah, the quickest way to warp talon fail is to charge a vehicle with them, or worse a walker where they will die horribly but slowly with the 5+ inv.

 

I've played 6 games with warp talons (love the models and flavor) and they have literally never come HALFWAY close to making up their points. They've not survived a game either except the time i had a ten man unit get tarpitted by a defiler that charged them, 2 left at the end of the game with MoT (playing with loadouts TRYING to make them workable... and failing). they are an awesome model with righteous fluff and absolutely no table top application whatsoever, raptors all day everyday.

[Minsc]

yeah, the quickest way to warp talon fail is to charge a vehicle with them, or worse a walker where they will die horribly but slowly with the 5+ inv.

 

I've played 6 games with warp talons (love the models and flavor) and they have literally never come HALFWAY close to making up their points. They've not survived a game either except the time i had a ten man unit get tarpitted by a defiler that charged them, 2 left at the end of the game with MoT (playing with loadouts TRYING to make them workable... and failing). they are an awesome model with righteous fluff and absolutely no table top application whatsoever, raptors all day everyday.

 

You know there is a rule called "Our Weapons are Useless", and that Warptalons aren't fearless right? :D

[techsoldaten]

Uh....Lightning claws do nothing against AV dude.

D'oh! So, I got nothing then. Maybe we should talk about the situations where they would be good, albeit that will be a short conversation.

 

How would they do against a field of grots?

[the jeske]

bad . too few attacks and grots overwatch and hit them back like normal marines , but each kill costs the talons a lot more.

 

they do ok again power armored targets under 9 models in the open , as long as there are HQ among those 8 or less models.