Blood Claws and Math Hammer

[Buliwyf]

Hey all, it's good to be back on the forums and in the austere walls of The Fang amongst my battle brothers. I'm not sure if I missed something, but I was hitting the MathHammer last night and think I found something out:

 

Blood claws might actually be worth taking.

 

Now bear with me, I know that for a competitive tactician, what I've just said was heresy, but let's run a few numbers. All my calculations are based on close combat against T4 3+ save enemy (your average Space Marine).

 

If you want the raw data, you can skip the rest

 

 

 

 

A Vanilla Space Marine Unit of 10 versus a Vanilla Space Marine Unit of 10:

If the unit is on the charge, they're getting 21 attacks (2 apiece plus the sergeant with 3) and get across a grand total of 5.25 wounds. A 3+ armor save whittles that down to a total of 1.75

 

Pretty typical, right? And for 170 points that's not anything we wouldn't expect and haven't experienced. Well, let's take it up a step and do a few more 10-man squads. Let's try some Blood Angels Assault Squads at 190 Points.

 

For the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, you get 10 free attacks at Initiative 10. That's a smooth .833 wounds for you. Then you get your attacks, 31 in total with your sergeant. That's an impressive 7.75 wounds inflicted, 2.58 of those will not be saved. A grand total of 3.413. But can't we do better? Let's throw in a Sanguinary Priest. That Furious Charge buff to Strength not to mention the priest's attacks and your rounding down to around 4.95 wounds. That's half a squad!

 

But if we're our Blood Angels brothers-in-arms, all I can think about is how much gore I can accumulate on my chainsword. We can still do better. Let's add a Reclusiarch ON TOP of everything, with his 5 attacks and his ability to reroll stacking onto the squad, things get a little silly. You can get across 8.192 (each unit can now reroll, the strength is increased for the Reclusiarch). That's almost an entire squad, and if you start throwing in AP3 weapons, those vanilla marines are wiped out.

 

All of this comes at a hefty price. If this is in your Assault squad, each of those extras are taking Jump Packs. That's a grand total of 420.

 

I contend that we can do it better, and that we can not only do it better, but with a unit that is one of the "weakest" in our codex. Let's bring in the Blood Claws.

 

Let's grab a 10 man pack for 150 points. Pretty standard. Now that pack of scrubbos is getting a whopping 40 attacks with their berserk rage. That's a measly 2.222 wounds getting across. Not much better than your vanilla marines. But here's where things get a little nuts. All we have to do is top off a Rune Priest with Divination and those rerolls and what do we get? A whopping 5.204. Now sure, you might be saying that the angels are getting 3 additional wounds on us, but we have only just breached the 250 point mark and haven't filled out our entire squad. Let's do that now with 15 blood claws plus the Rune Priest, and we get 7.334 wounds for 325 points.

 

That's 95 points well below our Blood Angels, and all we have are regular Blood Claws plus a Rune Priest. We haven't even factored in any Power Weapons or Mark of the Wulfen. I'm finding that the key is in how many initial attacks the unit can make. If we took a full contingent of Grey Hunters, for example, and gave them the same rerolls with the Rune Priest, they get comparable numbers but they are limited by their model cap. The Rune Priest is the great equalizer when it comes to the unit's efficiency. When you consider that for just 75 more points I can almost annihilate the entire unit, I think it might behoove us to start investigating some possibilities with our untested scrubs. Here's my chart:

 

 

 

*Skip here if you don't want to read the Explanation*

 

 

*The Charge is Assumed on all Units against an infantry force of vanilla Space Marines (Toughness 4, AS 3+)*

 

Blood Angels Assault Squad (190 points)

3 Attacks + Hammer and Anvil: 3.416 Wounds

Points per Wound: 55.62

 

Blood Angels Assault Squad + Sanguinary Priest (265 points)

3 Attacks + Hammer and Anvil + Sanguinary Priest Attacks (4) + Furious Charge Buff: 4.95

Points per Wound: 53.53

 

Blood Angels Assault Squad + Sanguinary Priest + Reclusiarch (420 points)

3 Attacks + Hammer and Anvil + Sanguinary Priest Attacks (4) + Reclusiarch Attacks (5) + Re-Rolls: 8.192

Points per Wound: 51.26

 

10-man Blood Claws (150 points)

4 Attacks: 2.22

Points per Wound: 67.57

 

10-man Blood Claws + Rune Priest w/Runic Axe (250 points)

4 Attacks + Rune Priest Attacks (3) + Rerolls: 5.482

Points per Wound: 45.60

 

15-Man Blood Claws (225 points)

4 Attacks: 3.33

Points per Wound: 67.57

 

15-man Blood Claws + Rune Priest w/Runic Axe (325 points)

4 Attacks + Rune Priest Attacks (3) + Rerolls: 7.334

Points per Wound: 44.31

 

10-Man Grey Hunter Squad (150 points)

3 Attacks: 2.5

Points per Wound: 60

 

10-Man Grey Hunter Squad + Rune Priest w/Runic Axe (250 points)

3 Attacks + Rune Priest Attacks (3) + Rerolls: 5.528

Points per Wound: 45.22

 

5-man Thunderwolf Cavalry Unit w/no special weapons (250 points):

6 Attacks + Rending: 5.0

Points per Wound: 50

 

The clearest winner on wound efficiency (though certainly not longevity), however, is:

 

15-wolf Fenrisian Wolf Pack + Cyber Wolf (128 points):

3 Attacks + Cyber Wolf Attacks (4): 3.833

Points per Wound: 33.394

 

 

So I don't know, guys. You tell me. Are Blood Claws worth it yet? Did I miss the post where someone already math hammered this all out and did I just wasted an hour?

[SamaNagol]

10 Death Company with 2 axes and a 100pt Chaplain say hi. ;)

[Valerian]

Also, you haven't factored in Mobility. The Blood Angels with all of those Jump Packs are expensive because they have paid for, and have the necessary mobility to be a dedicated Assault unit. You have done that yet for your unit of 15 Blood Claws plus Rune Priest, so either you are walking, or your in a Crusader, which means you need to add another 255 points, or thereabouts.

 

The problem that the BC have against GH by comparison, isn't that they are not better in close combat (point for point they probably have a slight edge). The problem is that they are not so much better as to offset the inherent disadvantage of losing that flexibility/versatility that the Hunters have (due to their load-out and better BS and WS). GH are better in every other role than BC, and are good enough in the Assault so as to make them "satisfactory" in that role, too.

 

V

[Wulfebane]

For the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, you get 10 free attacks at Initiative 10.

 

Am I missing something? I thought HoW only allowed 1 member from the pack/squad strike at Initiative 10?

[SamaNagol]

For the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule, you get 10 free attacks at Initiative 10.

 

Am I missing something? I thought HoW only allowed 1 member from the pack/squad strike at Initiative 10?

 

Any model that assaults using their Jump Pack and ends up in b2b contact after the charge move gets a HoW attack.

[Buliwyf]

Also, you haven't factored in Mobility. The Blood Angels with all of those Jump Packs are expensive because they have paid for, and have the necessary mobility to be a dedicated Assault unit. You have done that yet for your unit of 15 Blood Claws plus Rune Priest, so either you are walking, or your in a Crusader, which means you need to add another 255 points, or thereabouts.

 

Val, there are a lot of factors that haven't been considered, including mobility. The other primary factor that this can't really reflect is durability. Finally, the last factor I think one should consider is scoring. Point to wound, your Fenrisian wolves come out on top, but they have no staying power and can't claim objectives unless you have Canis. While all of these are certainly important, I just can't help but wonder at how a swarming pack of Blood Claws would affect my opponent. He can't ignore them for long, and if he does, well, I guess he's not shooting at my TWC, or my Grey Hunters, or what-have-you. Not to mention, whether they are used for assault or just a distraction, they'll always be a viable scoring unit. Are there anymore uses we could squeeze out of a unit like this? It's always said that they're just not as good as Grey Hunters, but I'm just trying to think outside the box here. Am I alone in trying to stick up for our more untested pups?

[chezzie]

Point to wound, your Fenrisian wolves come out on top, but they have no staying power and can't claim objectives unless you have Canis.

 

Even with canis they're not scoring, they've got that rule (name escapes me) that means they're not scoring. Afaict they're always denial units though.

 

D.

[Hfran Morkai]

Alas, Mr Kelly made a slight error during playtesting.

 

And that error? I feel he made Grey Hunters too cheap, not Blood Claws too expensive. The problem is Grey Hunters are TOO good for the points cost, making them a much more attractive choice for list builders.

 

However I say sod this trend, I'll play with and collect what I think is cool, and some Claws are damn cool. Now FW just need to release a standard Heresy Era combat weapons pack (and the book detailing the Wolves so I can see how many Claws I can take in a pack ^_^) and I'm laughing.

[chezzie]

Now FW just need to release a standard Heresy Era combat weapons pack (and the book detailing the Wolves so I can see how many Claws I can take in a pack :)) and I'm laughing.

 

Which book are we slated to be in?

[Hfran Morkai]

Now FW just need to release a standard Heresy Era combat weapons pack (and the book detailing the Wolves so I can see how many Claws I can take in a pack :cuss) and I'm laughing.

 

Which book are we slated to be in?

 

I honestly have no idea, talk is the next book is the Dropsite Massacre, so we could be the third, given that the Sacking of Prospero was at the outset of the Heresy, assuming they're going to try and keep in some sort of chronological order, which they should.

 

Somehow I don't think we'll see a book dedicated to the Burning of Prospero, although it certainly could fill a tome itself, with two very non standard Legions, Custodes, Sisters of Silence and you could even throw in Imperial Soldiery for good measure. But with the first book they did cover four Legions, so who knows? It was certainly a significant battle, and it could have some interesting general urban scenarios to keep those not particularly interested in the two Legions keen.

[Hafdan]

15 blood claws rampaging across the board with a couple of flamers and a power fist, thats just fun stuff. Thats what Blood Claws do though, if your opponent focus fires them...then he's leaving himself open to your 'better' troops. If he ignores them, they're going to crash into something, and its going to hurt.

 

I'd say its fluff working as intended....thats how they act in the novels.

[Stormbrow II]

(name escapes me)

Supernumerary? The thing that prevents them from taking objectives even if they're a Fast Attack choice in the Scouring, which is a shame.

 

The problem is that they are not so much better as to offset the inherent disadvantage of losing that flexibility/versatility that the Hunters have (due to their load-out and better BS and WS)

This. Especially the bit in brackets.

 

The downside of mathshammer is that it is conducted in a vacuum. The 10 Blood Claws might do slightly better on the charge than 10 Grey Hunters with their extra attacks but it doesn't factor in other variables highlighted by other posters such BA Jumpers greater speed making it far more likely they will get the charge than our Claws, nor does it include the fact that Hunters can deal damage at more than 12" away with the majority of their guns and reliably choose to charge or take a charge and get 3 attacks either way. That is arguably why they're better than Blood Claws - they have far greater flexibility and it would appear they don't pay extra for it. There's also the matter of their (GH) fire being more accurate and the fact they will be hit less by the majority of opponents in combat which is a big deal when it comes to fighting against higher Initiative opponents as you will statistically have more guys to swing back.

 

I wonder if it is better to shoot a single pistol shot and assault with 3 attacks each (against most enemies) or double-tap Bolters, sit there and get assaulted while shooting Overwatch fire aswell? It probably depends upon the enemy unit that is in front of the Hunters and what the units are armed with.

 

Are Blood Claws worth it yet?

No.

 

Alas, Mr Kelly made a slight error during playtesting.

 

And that error? I feel he made Grey Hunters too cheap, not Blood Claws too expensive. The problem is Grey Hunters are TOO good for the points cost, making them a much more attractive choice for list builders.

Shh. Don't say that out loud or publish this any further as they might give us a WD 'update' with more expensive Grey Hunters.

[chezzie]

(name escapes me)

Supernumerary? The thing that prevents them from taking objectives even if they're a Fast Attack choice in the Scouring, which is a shame.

 

That's the one, yeah it's a shame, but I guess makes some sort of sense.

[Hfran Morkai]

Shh. Don't say that out loud or publish this any further as they might give us a WD 'update' with more expensive Grey Hunters.

 

I would have no issue with this, remember that this is also one of the primary reasons those who play Codex Marines complain we are overpowered. There is no way in Hel (the frozen one, just to be sure) Grey Hunters and Blood Claws should cost the same.

 

As an aside, what points cost is a Chaos Space Marine with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon? Interested to see how much they're considered to be worth these days.

 

I play with (or will when models are available) Blood Claws even if they are considered a subpar choice. Someone once summed it up: "My list is weak, but it suits me". They could've at least allowed Blood Claws to take more Special Close Combat Weapons, I miss the days of one per five. Would make little sense fluffwise to have more SCCWS per pack than Hunters (I imagine survivors would pick up the weapons of the fallen if they were power weapons) but would give them an edge back.

[Stormbrow II]

There is no way in Hel (the frozen one, just to be sure) Grey Hunters and Blood Claws should cost the same.

This is true.

 

As an aside, what points cost is a Chaos Space Marine with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon? Interested to see how much they're considered to be worth these days.

15 pts each. But that unit doesn't get ATSKNF or Fearless (which is a *huge* deal) and they also lack Counter-Attack while paying "normal" points for special weapons and such.

 

There's no contest between regular CSM and Grey Hunters.

 

I play with (or will when models are available) Blood Claws even if they are considered a subpar choice.

More power to you. I really like the abusepuppy quote that is in the jeske's signature when it comes to taking units that are dismissed as sub-par but fun for the person that uses them. It's especially apt considering we're being asked to mathshammer stuff.

 

They could've at least allowed Blood Claws to take more Special Close Combat Weapons, I miss the days of one per five.

This. Both fancy guns and ccws for every 5 would have made it a tougher choice between GH & BC and wouldn't have been excessive seeing as they're WS and BS 3. A pity indeed.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Unfortunately if Blood Claws were in any other list they'd be a solid choice, but Space Wolves have something better for exactly the same cost. The obvious superiority is why the default Space Wolves list is a Rune Priest, some Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs.

 

The thing is, even if Grey Hunters were 17 points each, and Long Fangs 18, we'd still take them in preference to Blood Claws, unless we were doing Razorspam, where the cheaper Blood Claws would fulfill the same function as the 5 Hunters with flamer do presently.

[eyeslikethunder]

Unfortunately if Blood Claws were in any other list they'd be a solid choice, but Space Wolves have something better for exactly the same cost. The obvious superiority is why the default Space Wolves list is a Rune Priest, some Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs.

 

The thing is, even if Grey Hunters were 17 points each, and Long Fangs 18, we'd still take them in preference to Blood Claws, unless we were doing Razorspam, where the cheaper Blood Claws would fulfill the same function as the 5 Hunters with flamer do presently.

 

Exactly they were that cost on the 3rd ed codex and people still took GH 9 out of 10 times. BC were a little more popular and better then but its the versatility of GH which gets them picked.

[the jeske]

exactly they were that cost on the 3rd ed codex and people still took GH 9 out of 10 times. BC were a little more popular and better then but its the versatility of GH which gets them picked.

yes , but that is because in the post rhinon rush era most SW armies were drop pod based . BC were used post 4th ed faq in slogger lists and only because they could fit in 3 hidden powerfists in to a single unit , which was a hardcounter to nidzilla.

[Tamwulf]

Chaos Space Marines are 75 for five, and 13 for each additional up to a total of 20 in a squad. These guys have a ton of options, but they do not have ATSKNF standard. They have to pay for 'Veterans of the Long War' that increase their leadership by one and gives them Hatred (Space Marines).

 

What I'm kind of getting out of this post is that Blood Claws are good- if you take something else to help them out. I personally have not used Blood Claws at all since the new Codex dropped. There just didn't seem to be any reason to when I had Grey Hunters available.

 

The reduced WS and BS of the Blood Claws, combined with the exact same options as the Grey Hunters, for the exact same points cost, means there is just no reason to ever take Blood Claws. :wallbash:

 

Face it, Phil Kelly wrote an excellent Codex, but he screwed up the Blood Claws. They either required more options then Grey Hunters (1 pf/5 was a great rule), or should have been cheaper then Grey Hunters. Or maybe some other idea/suggestion offered here.

 

As a side note, in reviewing the Blood Claws for my reply, I've noticed that Lukas the Trickster could be a very viable challenge character now. However, Ragnar Blackmane's Saga of the Warrior Born is kinda 'meh' as he'll probably be involved in a challenge on every turn. Still, +1 attack after a challenge is something.

 

Final Nail in the Coffin- Blood Claws always have to attempt to assault an enemy unit within 6". They can't shoot in that turn, but that doesn't prevent your enemy from Overwatch when the Blood Claws attempt to charge. Any type of rule that dictates the actions of your unit, especially one that takes away your shooting phase and makes you attempt an assault- one that you could still fail!- is a rule to be avoided.

[SamaNagol]

Saga of the Warrior Born is great as long as you have a Wolf Guard Pack Leader to accept challenges.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Sorry, I missed a couple of things.

 

Grey Hunters are exactly the same cost as Blood Claws, have proper Space Marine stats, have bolters, and can have two special weapons at 10 men.

 

Blood Claws have to be 15 to get two special weapons, and can't even fire them at a target within six inches unless you pay for a babysitter.

 

So effectively with Blood Claws you get less by paying more.

[SamaNagol]

If Blood Claws could have multiple hidden power weapons/fists they would be enticing. But even then they suffer from the necessity of a delivery system (pretty much has to be a Raider), and by comparison Grey Hunters are just too effective at different roles.

 

There's no way a unit with WS and BS3 and a shortage of Power Weapons should be 15 points.

 

At 14pts a model and 1 special CCW per 5 you would at least consider them with a Rune Priest to baby sit.

[greysquigg]

Looking at the blood claws, they seem to be a more tar-pit/"come at me bro" type unit.

 

I'm going to be fielding some on thursday when I go to play and I'll let you know how they go.

 

 

Makes allot of sense for me, seeing as I run both TWC and LF.

 

+my opponent is a BA player so a tar-pit for his death company seems like a good option while my PC's deal with his 10 footslogging termies..

 

 

GS

[SamaNagol]

They aren't going to tarpit 10 death company. They put out too many attacks. And if he Presciences them you won't hold up more than 1 game turn.

[JimmyGuyy]

If you want a "come at me bro" unit, its Fenrisian wolves with a priest. Run the math on that, especially at I5. then consider theyre 8pts each