Vanilla Marines in 6th ed

[Giga]

Alright, so I want to return to 40k after a couple years of being away from the game and I'm trying to figure out how the 5th ed vanilla marine playstyle has changed in 6th ed. From what I can see in the new rulebook, mobile melee-based vanilla marine armies are even weaker than before, and playing gunline seems to be the way to go, what with the buffs to overwatch shooting, defensive grenades, etc.

 

Here are a few specific questions:

 

- how are vulkan armies in 6th ed?

- th/ss termies in a land raider, how popular are they in 6th ed?

- how do vanilla marines deal with flyer heavy armies?

- venerable/ironclad dreads, still useless?

- scouts any good in 6th ed?

- fortifications?

- tactical terminators?

- honor guard seem like they might be useful with the current AP3 on most power weps.

- did speeders suffer a huge survivability nerf?

- have you tested librarians with new 6th ed rulebook powers, and how has that worked out?

 

I'm mainly wondering how we are doing in the tournaments and what do good all-comers lists look like in 6th ed.

[spartan249]

Hey Giga, it's been a while. Nice to see you're back.

 

Well... there's good news and bad news.

 

Good news is that C:SM has gotten a few new tricks to pull with the new way of handling bike toughness and rapid-fire weapons (Tactical Squads now operate better on foot). Vulkan armies are still pretty decent, as meltas lost no effectiveness vs armor in a time where everything else took a serious hit in effectiveness against armor (compensated by Hull Points, making death of a thousand cuts happen in an eye-blink). Tactical Terminators are much better off now as they can now stand up to power weapon wielding units very well (it requires a much higher investment of points in close combat to see off Tac Terminators). C:SM Librarians are one of the librarians that are actually most likely to keep their powers rather then trade them (Null Zone is still one of the best powers in terms of usefulness, IMO), but in the case that you do trade out, you have access to Telepathy and Biomancy, 2 very nice tables that boast some good force multipliers and offensive capabilities.

 

Bad news is that... well, armor in general has gotten a bit less effective overall in the current metagame. LR + Termies are a dying breed, although they still do show up (when I ever see anyone playing C:SM, that is) since they are basically the only real unit C:SM has for effective close combat against serious CQB threats. Dreads in general are still useless (even more so now that it takes about the equivalent of a stiff breeze to kill them) as are Speeders. On the flip side, fortifications are outstanding, but C:SM has the same access as everyone else to them, making the playing field equal. Telion can make life difficult since he can man the Icarus Lascannon or Quad-gun and pretend that he's a Vindicare Assassin and pick guys off (I guarantee you'll get some groans when you pull this combo out).

 

Scouts got a bit of a second wind, as Sniper Rifles became able to precision shot (great fun to force armor/cover saves on special weapons/icons/stuff). They lost the ability to alpha strike with combi-meltas and the LSS, which limits the usefulness of that unit combo.

 

C:SM has no way of really dealing with fliers outside of fortifications, forge world, and allies. Storm Talons are a joke compared to the Vendetta/Caestus Assault Ram. Be prepared to buy some more stuff to not be helpless.

 

Right now, the tournament circuit is dominated by Daemons using a retarded white dwarf update that makes them basically invincible in a tournament setting (tailoring is basically impossible) and Grey Knight armies that are able to counter Daemons without sacrificing their ability to take on other armies. It's a horrible joke right now, so I wouldn't bother until Daemons are updated.

[Giga]

Heh, that sounds encouraging. Thanks for the answers anyway. :S

 

What about rifleman dreads? I remember them being rather good in 5th ed, and they don't seem all that shoddy to me right now. Would you have any good example SM lists for the 6th ed? Just so I get a general idea of what's the meta right now.

[spartan249]

Rifledreads have always been mediocre. In 5th, their niche was in high demand because light armor spam was in style. Now, they're basically there on the off chance that someone still brings heavy mech. In any other situation, Rifledreads take up an elites slot that could have gone to terminators, sternguard, or whatever.

 

To be honest with you, I've seen 2 C:SM armies in all my time playing 6th edition so far, and only one of them are actually changing their army towards slogging/drop pods. Most of the C:SM players are either not in my area, have changed to a variant marine codex, or have stopped playing. I, for example, have sold off a lot of my Iron Hands in favor of Grey Knights when they were finally updated, and I have no intentions of returning to C:SM.

[DarkGuard]

Good to see you back Giga, it's been a long time.

 

I'm sorry you had to return to this mess of a 6th Ed (I really don't like it). IMO it did too much, a couple of the rules changes would have been fine, but when then they all stacked up, and you know... ^_^

 

Changes to missions have also meant that objectives can be deployed deep in deployment zones again, encouraging gunlines more than mobility, as gunlines can just shoot out transports easily, making it near impossible to do anything about it.

 

Cheesy lists have grown, I went up against a Plague Marine/Nurgle Epidemus list and quit after two turns, it was near impossible to deal with. I mention these things because they impact Marines. Marines were never massive army killers, they relied on their Elites for that. Marines also liked mobility, to get to where they're needed. Compared to other gunlines they pale, as they just can't get that quantity of heavy weapons that you need.

 

Anyway, Marines have got better on foot. Less armour now due to HPs and ridiculous nerfs to units that disembark from them etc. Those changes to transports killed my favoured Honour Guard unit I was using, while the changes in HPs have forced me to rethink my entire approach to armoured list. Rhinos just die too quickly now! If using army, you need AV12+ to even stand a chance of the little things surviving. I also wouldn't mech your entire force anymore, hybrid is the way to go now (which is a good thing).

 

Vulkan sort of got nerfed. It was a short ranged army, so anything that impacts mobility impacts it. With less tanks as well meltas aren't as needed as they were compared to plasma and flamer. IMO, Vulkan now works best either staying with lots of tanks for saturation, or for Drop Pod lists.

 

Terminators in LR are still going strong in Marines, as spartan said they're a good CC unit. IMO Honour Guard got nerfed a bit, their big advantage over Terminators was being able to get a cheaper transport, that's different now. If you use them, you use them for hordes and challenges. They're still good, just now pricier than Terminators, and changes to power weapons do help them, both offensively and defensively.

 

Tactical Terminators are a little less survivable in the open, with cover saves being worst, but more survivable in combat against power weapon units. They're near enough the same IMO, I still like them.

 

Speeders got hit massively with only 2 HPs. Of course, they have jink, but a 5+ is actually a lot harder to make than a 4+, at least consistently. Variants now are 2x MM for suicide runs, and Typhoons because range still helps them out.

 

Close combat Scouts got nerfed with changes to Scout and Outflank rules, no more charging from reserve or alpha strikes. Snipers are better with precision shots I suppose, they're the only Scouts I'll take nowadays.

 

Vanilla struggle a bit against fliers. Other armies have cheaper access to fliers than the Stormtalon, which isn't that good, for its points. The Aegis line though is pretty cheap, even with the quad gun, and is a budget way to take down fliers, I'd consider that over the Talon.

 

Libbys have got better IMO, sort of. Perils is now more dangerous, but with the ability to trade in Codex powers for Rulebook, you have a lot more flexibility. Some of the rulebook powers are good, stick to Biomancy and Telepathy for things like Enfeeble and Puppet Master. The only downside is that they're random, and the best discipline isn't available to us, Divination. Psychic Hoods also got nerfed. They're still a solid choice for.

 

For tournaments, I haven't been keeping it. Idaho has a tournament report thread in UM though, it's worth checking out.

 

Good to see you again brother, hopefully our tidings of doom haven't put you off returning, it's not all that bad. ;)

[Giga]

Darn, I was kinda afraid of hearing that. The problem with C:SM in 5th ed was that, basically, the army was designed to do everything well but ended up being subpar or just plain crappy at most roles. With 6th ed further nerfing our HQs and making rhinos, razorbacks, and dreads even easier to kill, I feel we have very few viable units left in the codex. I've been reading blogs and forums quite a bit, and can't really find any C:SM doing well in 6th ed tournaments. :/

 

Also, I'm noticing power fist sergeants might be out of vogue now, what with the entire challenge mechanic and the precision strikes, it seems so easy to single them out or just prevent them from throwing any attacks.

 

Furthermore, when outfitting a captain (I'm trying to make my generic captain, my favorite model, work somewhat in 6th ed, heh), it seems to me relic blade/artificer armor combo is better than relic blade/storm shield, seeing as you should avoid power fists/thunder hammers/MCs regardless of the 3++ save, whereas artificer armor gives you a 2+ save against almost every single melee weapon in the game.

 

I suppose I'm gonna make a fluffyish list and try to get some games in to get the feel of the new rules and the new dexes.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think 6th edition is worse at all, in fact I enjoyed it. The only part I didn't like is the micromanaging of some rules which takes it's time to do and wears you out. I personally enjoyed 6th edition so far.

 

6th edition Marines are generally like 5th only work better for it. The army is best designed with solid shooting and some close combat ability, so if you can come up against a dedicated shooting army you can turn into assault and vice versa. 6th edition reduced cover saves for infantry, which helps us since opponents always benefited more than Marines, whilst getting cover saves for our vehicles is easier now we only need 25% to cover vehicles. I actually got a cover save on a Landraider the other day!

 

Although vehicles are more vulnerable to being glanced to death, lucky glances won't cripple our vehicles which is a benefit on the whole. I mean, 3 glances often ruins vehicles anyway!

 

Transports get increased movement now, which is a life saver! Rapid firing from transports is better for us, but assaulting is more difficult. I agree with Dark Guard that I felt this change was attrocious for some armies, Chaos in particular. However, if you plan on using a Landraider then things are more likely you'll get your squad into assault turn 2 or 3.

[Giga]

Omg, Idaho you just made my day. I totally overlooked the rule that tanks could flat out for a total 18" move per turn. Even with the nerf to disembarking (being unable to disembark if transport moves more than 6"), this should indeed allow C:SM armies to get into melta/flamer/charge range rather fast in lots of situations. This now gives me a whole new way to look at list building. :]

[Ming]

Vulkan lists gained alot - twin linked flamers in tac squads are awesome in overwatch, twin linked meltas are great, thunderhammers still awesome.

 

6th edition has created a few major conundrums for codex SM players that require tactical adjustments:

 

(1) Enemy flyers - there are ways to deal with them (bring your own flyer or an Aegis/quad gun or look to twin link massed high-S fire through some mechanism to increase chance to hit)

(2) Infantry cannot charge out of non-assault vehicles (either bring assault vehicles, or weather the one-turn dismount penalty, or bring jump pack assault marines or similar tactical adjustments, or use optimal spacing and cover to go on foot)

(3) Horde opponents - the opposite of meched opponents (every anti-tank weapon you bring impacts your ability to pound hordes)

[Gideon999]

Also dont forget that with the change to templates and vehicles you can take a vindicator and get S10 hits on enemy armour with any part of the pieplate now.

 

And I have to disagree on the viability of speeders. I use them a LOT, and I have found them more survivable now, especially the dual MM "suicide" variant. The jink save isnt much, but it is a 5+ invul all the time anytime which they never had before (which makes a big difference when you drop in front of a gunline) and sure they only have 2HP, but I have found that if someone wanted to kill my speeders before they wouldn't take more than 2 hits anyways before eithe being dead or useless.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And I disagree about the Dreadnoughts -- Ironclads, especially -- but Spartan's been vociferous and virulent about them, so I'm not going to bother drawing an argument about it here and now.

[maturin]

Good to see you back, Giga!

 

I like 6th a lot, if for no other reason than shaking up the status quo. And it's definitely changed things! In fact, the "meta" is still shifting rapidly and lists are still evolving. It's refreshing to see.

 

I'll agree with Deus Ex Ferrum that dread lists are still viable; I've found that AV13 heavy lists still work thanks to more plasma and less melta. (But who knows how much longer that'll last?)

 

One more thing I'll point out is that Forgeworld is putting out some very neat toys that work very well in 6th - Hyperios platforms, Mortis Contemptors, Predator Executioners, etc. If you can convince your local gaming group to start allowing FW you won't regret it.

[pyroknight]

This thread is clear evidence that many people are on both sides of the fence.

 

The changes in 6th edition are very different, and it forces you to change the way you think about any army. Those that have embraced this new line of thinking will have good things to say. Those who have not will have bad things to say. Good or bad depends on what you want to do.

 

Heck, since my metagame switch to plasma over melta, my tanks are actually more survivable in 6th.

 

With the addition of allies, there are a lot of different viable army builds now, and people are still figuring out what works and what doesn’t. These days, I am lucky if I face the same build twice.

It has been a wild ride if nothing else.

[spartan249]

And I disagree about the Dreadnoughts -- Ironclads, especially -- but Spartan's been vociferous and virulent about them, so I'm not going to bother drawing an argument about it here and now.

 

YMMV. I have an unforgiving meta, and dreads are at the bottom of the pecking order in point efficiency, damage output, and survivability overall. My iron hands were somewhat viable in 5th, but 6th has not treated any armor very well. It's also only bad for dreads, since they got all the bad and none of the good (can't flat out with a walker) of 6th edition.

 

Perhaps there is too much IG/DE/GKs around me, as that has skewed my thinking a bit.

[DarkGuard]

This thread is clear evidence that many people are on both sides of the fence.

 

The changes in 6th edition are very different, and it forces you to change the way you think about any army. Those that have embraced this new line of thinking will have good things to say. Those who have not will have bad things to say. Good or bad depends on what you want to do.

 

I think there's a lot of truth to this. I moan about 6th because I still struggle to make a new list that works well with it. I am still very much stuck in 5th with the idea that transports are everything etc. I am trying to change things around though, but the other thing that always sticks in my mind is that most people play Marines, making boltguns not that great. You want plasma then, but to bring that to its peak effectiveness you want to use a Rhino to bring it within range, but then that has some problems. So my list building is going around in circles at the moment. And I'm still upset about the loss of my Honour Guard.

[Giga]

From my experience, ironclad & venerable dreads in C:SM were never good. You could get some mileage out of droppoded ironclads or multimelta dreads in vulkan lists (although sternguard were arguably better in this role), but generally the only good variant was the rifleman dread. With close combat nerfs to walkers and the death by HPs, I can't see them working in 6th, either.

 

Anyway, rifleman dreads still *seem* pretty good to me, what with vehicles being easier to kill now and its huge range, 25% vehicle cover rule, and walker mobility enabling it to get good shots while remaining pretty safe from most shooting/assaults. The same could be said about typhoon speeders, although they're more of a glass cannon variant.

 

 

 

I'm still unsure as to how allies could best be utilized. The most obvious way to go about it is to get a cheap IG HQ and a bunch of IG troops with cheap lascannons, autocannons, etc., translating into a LOT of cheap effective troops with long range firepower for objective holding and the like, thus enabling us to spend fewer points on the crappy tacticals and get more of the good stuff. How do you guys do it?

 

Also, nobody told me anything about the power fist question. Are power fist sergeants any good now, seeing as they can be easily neutralized via the challenge mechanic?

[Captain Idaho]

I've often found Dreadnoughts to work best in numbers or else you can expect them to only to contribute with your firepower and target saturation. I've been thinking about dropping a solo Dreadnought to be honest, unless I have a few other heavy AV units around to help me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I can't hold my tongue any longer. If anything, Ironclad Dreadnoughts in particular got better on 6th Edition, especially if you're drop podding it. Here's why:

 

- AV13 is immune to krak grenades, whether thrown or in close combat.

- AV13 is extremely resistant to plasma (the new favorite MEQ weapon) and autocannons (still the favorite IG weapon).

- AV13 is resistant to missiles and power fists.

- Defensive grenades now grant Stealth USR if the shooter is within 8"; in terrain or after a smoke launcher pop, you'll have a 4+ save against threats like half-range melta and thrown haywire grenades.

- A pair of heavy flamers on a resilient platform provide excellent anti-infantry firepower; Overwatching with them combined with defensive grenades and immunity to krak grenades in CC makes for a potent mix and an excellent tar pit against power armor models.

- The fact that it also comes with a pair of DCCWs means that unlike normal dreads, a single Weapon Destroyed result won't neuter it in assault.

 

In fact, I'm in the process of building and painting a second Ironclad to go with my army because I have to found them to be extremely worthwhile in my armies.

[Giga]

Eh, I'm really not convinced.

 

Ironclad has what, 3 attacks (unless he loses a DCCW), so 4 attacks on charge (3 if the opponent has defensive grenades) at WS4? Even if you get it into assault, it's going to take ages to kill an infantry unit, and with only 3 attacks you can't get enough casualties to reliably cause them to fail leadership checks and die to sweeping advances.

 

Overwatch + flamers? Lol, who the hell assaults an ironclad with infantry units? They either shoot them to death or send an MC at them.

 

Even GW is aware of how useless close combat dreads were in 5th ed. That's why they came up with the uber dreads for the BA dex.

[Muctar]

From my experience, ironclad & venerable dreads in C:SM were never good. You could get some mileage out of droppoded ironclads or multimelta dreads in vulkan lists (although sternguard were arguably better in this role), but generally the only good variant was the rifleman dread. With close combat nerfs to walkers and the death by HPs, I can't see them working in 6th, either.

AV13 on a walker is great now, in particular because of the aforementioned shift away from massed melta to plasma. Ironclads in pods are much better now then they were in 5th due to 3 things:

1) 25% hull obscured = cover save

2) Ironclad Assault Launchers count as both offensive and defensive grenades, and defensive grenades give stealth (+1 cover) from shooting within 8".

3) Though being hit at weapons skill in combat, Krak grenades have no effect.

 

I have no experience with venerables but they seem to have lost a lot of their staying power due to hull points, especially considering their hefty points cost.

 

Also, nobody told me anything about the power fist question. Are power fist sergeants any good now, seeing as they can be easily neutralized via the challenge mechanic?

Personally, all of my power fist sergeants are collecting dust at the moment. I find them to be too many points for units that are primarily meant for shooting, such as tacticals and sternguard, and too easy to kill off in a challenge before they get to swing. My only exception may be assault sergeants with power fist/thunder Hammer with a storm shield since they have a reasonable chance of surviving to swing their unwieldy weapon in assault. I think that most sergeants will be equipped with combi-weapons and possibly melta bombs, keeping them cheap and (relatively) disposable in assault.

[spartan249]

Idaho, I tried desperately to make dreadnoughts work (especially via numbers) and I just could not. The dreads take up too many slots and don't do much for those slots. I performed a lot better when I left the dreads in the case and went heavy sternguard/shooty command squad instead.

 

Just because something gets better doesn't mean it becomes good. Ironclads barely pass muster as a diversion, as they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They're nothing a little maneuver warfare can't counter extremely quickly, as I have done everytime one showed up against me

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Eh, I'm really not convinced.

 

Ironclad has what, 3 attacks (unless he loses a DCCW), so 4 attacks on charge (3 if the opponent has defensive grenades) at WS4? Even if you get it into assault, it's going to take ages to kill an infantry unit, and with only 3 attacks you can't get enough casualties to reliably cause them to fail leadership checks and die to sweeping advances.

 

Overwatch + flamers? Lol, who the hell assaults an ironclad with infantry units? They either shoot them to death or send an MC at them.

 

Even GW is aware of how useless close combat dreads were in 5th ed. That's why they came up with the uber dreads for the BA dex.

 

1. Four attacks on the charge is enough to generate two kills on the charge against any Marine squad other than Hammernators or maybe GK Termies/Paladins. Consider that it would be preceeded by TWO S5 templates? Against your standard ten-man power armor squad, that's enough hits to push wounds through their armor save. and besides how many units in the game right now have defensive grenades -- not access to, but actually take them or have them standard? Plague Marines, maybe Fire Warriors. And besides, I mentioned them as a tarpit. It might take it three turns to chew through a squad, but it locks that squad in a single location and if they don't a fist or hammer in there, then they don't pose a threat to me anyway.

 

2. You'd be surprised how people react when an AV13 walker drop pods right in front their quad-gun. And besides, not every army has access to MCs, or even takes them. The price hike on DPs and requirement for marked Lords to move cult units to Troops has eliminated lots of CSM DPs, for instance.

 

 

Idaho, I tried desperately to make dreadnoughts work (especially via numbers) and I just could not. The dreads take up too many slots and don't do much for those slots. I performed a lot better when I left the dreads in the case and went heavy sternguard/snooty command squad instead.

 

Just because something gets better doesn't mean it becomes good. Ironclads barely pass muster as a diversion, as they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. They're nothing a little maneuver warfare can't counter extremely quickly, as I have done everytime one showed up against me.

 

Your derision is exactly why I was reluctant to get into this topic in the first place. Considering the fact that the mechanized meta is dying out and many players are going foot heavy completely renders your "maneuver warfare" comment null. The by-product of this change in general list building is that many people are also taking fewer anti-tank guns; double plasma, for example, is the new hotness on CSM squads instead of the old double melta. And guess who doesn't give a flying monkey's :) about plasma? That's right, AV13.

 

Drop pods give Dreadnoughts the maneuverability that they need to dictate the location of the battle, which is the entire point of maneuver warfare anyway. If you put multiple ones of the ground Turn One, the enemy is going to have to stop to deal with them, which gives the rest your army -- and remember C:SM is a predominantly shooting 'dex -- more time to put rounds down range.

[spartan249]

Is that dread av13 all round? Not if I remember correctly. Dropping them danger close for application of flamers creates situations where maneuvering to the rear becomes a simple proposition for people who didn't abandon all common sense and included mobile elements. The dread most certainly draws some heat when it drops, but it's not like it even takes that much to neutralize it as an intact battlefield threat. If 3 glances don't kill it, an immobilization will basically amount to an inconsequential presence.

 

Frankly, someone actually wrought asunder by ironclads because of their delusions about a meta-game shift deserve their loss, as it's a kind of threat easily anticipated and prepared for.

 

Fliers and FMCs are the new top tier diversionary unit, there is no comparison between the two. Any other application of dreads see more survivability and firepower provided by other units available.

[DarkGuard]

Anyway, rifleman dreads still *seem* pretty good to me, what with vehicles being easier to kill now and its huge range, 25% vehicle cover rule, and walker mobility enabling it to get good shots while remaining pretty safe from most shooting/assaults. The same could be said about typhoon speeders, although they're more of a glass cannon variant.

 

Not really, at least that's not my experience. Took a couple to a tournament and they were my worst units. Basically, a lot of people have moved away from AV10-11 due to HPs and how easy it is too kill. Most vehicles are now AV12+, which Rifleman always struggled against. IMO, the new standard anti-tank weapons are krak missiles and lascannons.

 

Also, anything unwieldy on a Sergeant isn't great, because they're so easy to pick out and neutralise with the challenge mechanic. Take nothing, a combi or a power sword. Assault squad Sergeants can get away with it, but I feel you'd want a storm shield to keep them alive.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Is that dread av13 all round? Not if I remember correctly. Dropping them danger close for application of flamers creates situations where maneuvering to the rear becomes a simple proposition for people who didn't abandon all common sense and included mobile elements. The dread most certainly draws some heat when it drops, but it's not like it even takes that much to neutralize it as an intact battlefield threat. If 3 glances don't kill it, an immobilization will basically amount to an inconsequential presence.

 

Frankly, someone actually wrought asunder by ironclads because of their delusions about a meta-game shift deserve their loss, as it's a kind of threat easily anticipated and prepared for.

 

Fliers and FMCs are the new top tier diversionary unit, there is no comparison between the two. Any other application of dreads see more survivability and firepower provided by other units available.

 

 

So apparently you're saying that if my opponents aren't idiots in their placement and maneuvering, then I'm the idiot in my placement and maneuvering. No, its rear is AV10, you're right. But I'm also smart enough that if there's terrain in my drop zone, I'll go there -- the Stealth from defensive grenades will help mitigate the threat to my rear armor. I also aim for the flanks if there's a juicy target over there, so I'll put my back to the board edge if at all possible. Combined with the fact that I'm punching multiple dreadnoughts on Turn One -- never less than three pods in an army, even if the third comes down empty -- it creates more than a diversion, it forces the enemy to fight Turn One on their side of the board. If even one Dreadnought survives to Turn Two, then Step One of my battle plan has been achieved: force the enemy to fight on their side of the table. Normally I've got at least a third Dread in a pod and one or two Stormtalons in reserve, so Turn Two I can start putting even more units on the table that are affecting the enemy in their own deployment zone. The rest of my army normally consists of a TFC and Tactical Squads with plasma cannons with las/plasbacks, so I want the fight to happen no closer than midfield, where I can pump bolter and plasma rounds into them. Given the still-high proportion of assault armies in my local metagame -- Wolves, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Chaos Marines -- this tactic usually works.

 

But as you said at the start of this discussion, mileage varies. What works here doesn't work there, and there's no point arguing about it since neither one of us is willing to budge.