DarkGuard Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Lets refrain from making assumptions about people's intelligence and skill based on the units they run. Seriously, we're all better than that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3228822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Well, you did get me to crack up a bit there... GKs are not an assault army, as much as the force weapons may suggest otherwise. We can perform in that capacity if pushed to do so or if it's wise to do so (I.e. the true tactical squad), but it's certainly not our forte. Of course dreads won't be working in isolation, neither will the OPFOR. Dreads act as an ephemeral diversion, even in numbers of 2~3, as their destructive capability is extremely limited for the expenditure in points. What they get in return becomes less and less worthy of the expenditure as cheaper, more efficient, and more destructive diversions are introduced into the metagame. Furthermore, the methods of dealing with dreads becomes cheaper and more effective with every passing codex/update. The only walkers in this game that are worth anything would be killa kans IMO, as they bring a lot of hull points, attacks, and ranged firepower for ridiculously low prices. Anything else is simply overpriced and comparatively underwhelming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3228981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 I think Dreadnoughts are a unit which work well with certain armies and are inefficient at best in others, which is why we are finding such a stark divide in opinion. A army with some footsloggers and some vehicles (people like to call it "Hybrids"?) in it can make use of the versatility of Dreadnoughts since they support the infantry with heavy weapons fire and need to be targeted by opponents because no one generally wants Dreadnoughts to charge them (hordes aren't as bothered but even they have smaller units supporting them). As such the Dreadnoughts suck attention away from your other armoured targets. I'm not going to lie though; my 1500pts army may struggle to make good use of Dreadnoughts since it's had to get smaller with the necessity of a Landraider. If I squeeze 1 in then it'll just be shot as it stands out, or ignored because I have less infantry for it to advance with. But that's just my list :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 The only walkers in this game that are worth anything would be killa kans IMO, as they bring a lot of hull points, attacks, and ranged firepower for ridiculously low prices. Anything else is simply overpriced and comparatively underwhelming. Eldar War Walkers. Lacking in the HP department, but ridiculous amounts of firepower. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 @ Deus Ex Ferrum Everything you say about ironclads is nice in theory, but it really does require your opponent to be kinda bad. Anyone with a little sense will shoot the ironclad before it can charge anything. Throughout 5th, I've seen many people droppod ironclads, and yet only a handful of those ever reached close combat. In 6th, it's going to be even worse, what with HPs and AP2 being better at killing vehicles (chances are huge AP2 shots are going to at least be immobilizing/deweaponizing the dread). Finally, all this wouldn't be such a big problem if the dread wasn't just plain overpriced for what it does. @ DarkGuard But wouldn't marine armies still use rhinos/razorbacks, seeing as that's effectively their only transport aside from LRs? Not to mention necrons with their many av11 skimmers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Most Marines armies I've seen are more foot based with their troops. You'll see a couple of Rhinos, but you'll very rarely see a lot of Rhinos now. As for Necrons, they're skimmers are basically AV13. When I went up against them in a tournament I didn't stand a chance, got wiped off the board and therefore dropped to 4th. I played a good game, but my lack of strong firepower beyond Vindicators and the amount of firepower and AV13 they had meant that no matter what I did, I was going to lose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Right now, beyond a few specifics, I think it's sufficient to say C:SM is suffering a bit in 6th edition. This is, of course, only considering the 5th edition codex. I've got my bets on the 6th edition codex bringing quite a few new things to the table (fixing ven dreads, Ground to Air weaponry, more substantial SM aircraft options, lowered devastator costs, hopefully good new units, etc), so I'm waiting for an update before I put any more nails into C:SM's coffin. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Most Marines armies I've seen are more foot based with their troops. You'll see a couple of Rhinos, but you'll very rarely see a lot of Rhinos now. @Darkguard - I think this is due to the initial knee-jerk "ohmygoodness vehicles are no good in 6th" reaction. The meta is still shifting, and there are signs that rhinos/transports will rise again in popularity. People are starting to realize that vehicles may die more easily, but will be more effective before they die (compared to 5th) thanks to less stun-locking. And as always, a tac squad on an objective is one of the more difficult troops in 40k to shift. Certainly there are some "tournament" bloggers (BOLS, etc) who are advocating more rhinos, not fewer. Right now, beyond a few specifics, I think it's sufficient to say C:SM is suffering a bit in 6th edition. This is, of course, only considering the 5th edition codex. I've got my bets on the 6th edition codex bringing quite a few new things to the table (fixing ven dreads, Ground to Air weaponry, more substantial SM aircraft options, lowered devastator costs, hopefully good new units, etc), so I'm waiting for an update before I put any more nails into C:SM's coffin. @spartan249 - I disagree that C:SM is suffering due to a change in editions. If anything, it's simply suffering from codex creep. The issues you bring up were problems in 5th as well (overpriced ven dreads & devastators), or are a problem across most 5th ed codices (lack of AA/flyer options). Look at anyone other than Necrons or IG - we're all in the same boat, or worse off, vs. flyers. So I wouldn't say C:SM is suffering in 6th - it's just that Necrons and IG are very overpowered (for now). If you include Forgeworld units, C:SM actually is one of the stronger codices with many good options available (Mortis Contemptors, Hyperios batteries, Predator Executioners, etc). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3229718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 So, guys, anyone here had any experience with storm talons? Been looking at them these days and I really like them, I keep imagining them in my chapter's colors, and am thinking of getting a pair with TL-lascannons & TL assault cannons. They seem a lot more cost efficient than shooty dreads or even landspeeders in 6th + the fact they're fliers makes them serve as an anti-flyer in their own right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I have one with lascannons; bought a second, still haven't finished putting it together, but I did push its empty base around the table a time or two. I use them as interceptors to shoot down other flyers. All told, they work pretty well unless your opponent rolls like a boss on his Jink saves (which mine yesterday did). My one serious issue with them is that if you encounter an ADL with quad gun, I hope you can roll like a boss on your Jink saves, too. They're only 2 HPs and AV11, so they die pretty quick to Interceptor fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Stormtalons face an uphill battle against the top tier fliers. They do work, but they lose point for point against vendettas. They will be sufficient for most situations, I suppose, but low AV, expense, and lack of hull points plays directly against their effectiveness IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 So, guys, anyone here had any experience with storm talons? Been looking at them these days and I really like them, I keep imagining them in my chapter's colors, and am thinking of getting a pair with TL-lascannons & TL assault cannons. They seem a lot more cost efficient than shooty dreads or even landspeeders in 6th + the fact they're fliers makes them serve as an anti-flyer in their own right. They're not great but they're better than nothing if you have to face other flyers (which is becoming the norm). The choice of armament is a bit tricky, consider the following for a moment before you glue anything. The main thing we have to worry about is AV12 flyers, i.e. Vendettas and Heldrakes. So our Stormtalons, which are primarily anti-flyers (if we didn't have to worry about enemy flyers, I wouldn't recommend our own), must be able to deal with those threats. Warning, mathhammer follows. Don't hate, it's just food for thought. After doing some mathhammer with Giga's correction, -CML penetrates AV12 44% of the time and gets at least a glance 67% of the time. -TL-lascannons penetrate AV12 44% of the time and get at least a glance 59% of the time. When they penetrate, they have more of a chance to destroy the enemy flyer in one hit. -Skyhammers penetrate AV12 33% of the time and get at least a glance 67% of the time. The assault cannons also have a 44% chance of getting a penetrating hit (they can't glance AV12). So in any given turn shooting at an AV12 flyer you'll probably knock off a single hull point and get a roll on the damage table, with any choice of armament. Skyhammers are the least effective against the enemy flyers which we have to worry about, although they are the most effective of the lot at dealing with AV10/11, so it's probably best not to equip those. Pros of lascannons: -better chance of blowing up AV12 in one shot -better at taking out AV13/14 -5 pts cheaper Pros of CML: -slightly more likely to glance AV12 -better at taking out AV 10/11 -more versatile Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 One thing I like about the Stormtalon is that it's AV11 all around. You don't have to worry about someone getting shots at your rear armor as you zip around the battlefield. I don't have one myself, but I've faced three on the battlefield and I can attest to their efficacy - as long as your opponent isn't too loaded up on AA assets. Your local meta will probably dictate how effective they end up being. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 6, 2012 Author Share Posted November 6, 2012 The one thing I really can't understand is the fact Storm Talon has 2 HP, yet still costs similar (or more than) other flyers while having less armor and not all that much firepower. What's up with that, lol? @ I_Heart_69 Skyhammer = str 7, so it glances AV12 on 5 and penetrates on 6. At BS4 and 3 shots, that seems like a rather nice chance per missle you'll get at least a glance. Gets better if you do the hover strike move. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3230848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyroknight Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The one thing I really can't understand is the fact Storm Talon has 2 HP, yet still costs similar (or more than) other flyers while having less armor and not all that much firepower. What's up with that, lol? The storm talon is a tad bit overpriced and most of us know it. Compared with having nothing, its pretty amazing. Compared to other flyer and AAA choices, it is just okay. They perform well, but not the most cost effective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I've had some good successes with my one, whole squads killed off, HQs dying, tanks being blown up. But still, for its points tag, it hasn't impressed. It's good, just not great, and too many points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Has anyone used its escort special rule, and found it useful at all? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 The one thing I really can't understand is the fact Storm Talon has 2 HP, yet still costs similar (or more than) other flyers while having less armor and not all that much firepower. What's up with that, lol? @ I_Heart_69 Skyhammer = str 7, so it glances AV12 on 5 and penetrates on 6. At BS4 and 3 shots, that seems like a rather nice chance per missle you'll get at least a glance. Gets better if you do the hover strike move. Wow I really confused myself. Thanks for catching my mistake. Will edit my above post, but copy it here as well. CML penetrates AV12 44% of the time and gets at least a glance 67% of the time. TL-lascannons penetrate AV12 44% of the time and get at least a glance 59% of the time. Skyhammers penetrate AV12 33% of the time and get at least a glance 67% of the time. Still, the conclusion stands that Skyhammers are the least effective against the enemy flyers which we have to worry about, although they are the most effective of the lot at dealing with AV10/11. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 I take it you are taking into account multiple shots when you the odds of penetrates or glances? I'm no mathematic genius, but a lascannon has the exact same chance as a missile launcher or Sky Hammer at getting glances on AV10 to AV12. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 This really isn't that important to the topic at hand, the conclusion stands as is. I'll send you a PM with more details. More on topic, Darkguard, are Vindicators still treating you well this edition? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Cheers. I really do struggle with maths! I imagine a Vindicator can be a prickily proposition in 6th editon. High strength blast templates got a boost against vehicles, especially ordnance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Vindicators are ok but like all armor still suffered a bit cause they can be glanced to death. In my experience 6th edition put more emphasis on going whole hog or no hog when it comes to armor. You need to have lots of armor out their to spread an opponents shots out. So the lone support vindicator (a pretty common tactic in lower point lists in 5th) took a hit in 6th but that has nothing to do with the codex. However all things considered the vindicator got allot of nice boosts and for the points range its really nice. - Templates became more effective at getting hits on opposing armor. You can take out a whole swath of vehicles if they are packed together tightly enough. (castling took a hit in 6th) - Randomized weapon destroyed results are a huge plus to vindicators. Seems minor but a 50% chance your D-Cannon survives a weapon destroyed result is pretty damned nice! - The AP1 gives you the +2 to the pen roll so your getting explodes on 4's or better. Again none of it's codex specific but still that's huge. The codex as a whole got some boosts because of the general rules of 6th. Tac Squads are a better troop choice in 6th than they were in 5th. Sniper scouts are a whole lot better since they can all choose to allocate wounds on 6's. The easy access to lots of IC's and characters (sergeants) as well as the good variety of weapons options makes the codex pretty strong when it comes to challenges (issuing and accepting). I would also say the bikers got a pretty good boost and bikers were always a C:SM specialty. Their is more but at least IMO Vanilla Marines are a good army and arguably a better army in 6th than they were in 5th. Now I could stand to see a few things change like Land Raiders come down in points but nothing is ever perfect and we are not the only codex that is dealing with some of these issues. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giga Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Damn. Now I really want to buy at least two vindicators + a pair of storm talons, and I'm broke. :S Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3231969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Demolishers are AP2, not AP1. So you're back to killing armor on a 5+. Ranged AP1 would be nice to have in our codex somehow, but for now a MM attack bike is the closest thing we have... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3232189 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Fatiswon Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Demolishers are AP2, not AP1. So you're back to killing armor on a 5+. Ranged AP1 would be nice to have in our codex somehow, but for now a MM attack bike is the closest thing we have... dread (s) with twin linked laser cannons? str8 ap1 rg 48" re-roll misses? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264833-vanilla-marines-in-6th-ed/page/2/#findComment-3232623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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