Charging Multiple Units with a Single Model

[BlacKnight]

With the 6th edition rules I was wondering if it's even possible for a single model like a Monstrous Creature, Walker, or other some such close combat monster to charge multiple units simultaneously.

 

The reason why I ask is because when you charge you pick your two targets (primary and secondary) and you first have to move into base contact with the primary unit. Using normal charge rules you must move the charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route.

 

So does this mean that it will be almost impossible to charge multiple units with one model unless your opponent lines his models up in a nice even line making the nearest enemy from two different units equidistant? I can see that you might be able to finagle a charge into multiple units with one model, but it just may be very hard to do.

 

What do you guys think?

[ShinyRhino]

It is 100% impossible to multicharge with a single model unit, no matter how big a base you have. Youhave to make base contact with the first unit, as you said, by shortest route and to closest model. Any additional pivoting, rotating, or finagling of your model violates those rules.

[Panzerbjørn]

It is 100% impossible to multicharge with a single model unit, no matter how big a base you have. Youhave to make base contact with the first unit, as you said, by shortest route and to closest model. Any additional pivoting, rotating, or finagling of your model violates those rules.

 

I disagree. It is certainly going to be incredibly unlikely that this will ever be possible, but if two enemy models are placed just right, then a direct line to one model could bring you into base to base with two units.

 

However, it would almost definitely have to be done intentionally by your opponent.

[ShinyRhino]

The problem is that once you make base contact with one model, you stop. You don't pivot around, you don't reverse your oval base, etc. If the "secondary" model is in the charge path of the first model, you cannot make contact with that model on the way in.

[Morollan]

It is 100% impossible to multicharge with a single model unit, no matter how big a base you have. Youhave to make base contact with the first unit, as you said, by shortest route and to closest model. Any additional pivoting, rotating, or finagling of your model violates those rules.

 

I disagree. It is certainly going to be incredibly unlikely that this will ever be possible, but if two enemy models are placed just right, then a direct line to one model could bring you into base to base with two units.

 

However, it would almost definitely have to be done intentionally by your opponent.

 

It may not be 100% impossible but it's certainly 99.999999999999999%. The two enemy models would have to be exactly equidistant from the charging model so that at the precise point that the charger touches the base of the first enemy he also touches the base of the second. Achieving that is nigh on impossible.

[Seahawk]

Nothing is impossible, it's only highly improbable.

 

The equidistant scenario allows it to happen, but it's a one in a million odds, so don't bank on it. :cuss

[ShadowHaunt]

I think there's another way this could be pulled off. If you declare the charge against two units, and declare the more distant unit as primary, you end up going around the secondary target unit to reach the first. In essence, you are allowed to come into base contact with the secondary, so if you do so, then continue moving until in base contact with the primary, without having to leave base contact with the secondary, it should work.

 

For a simple example, consider a pair of 5-man squads being charged, like so:

 

MM

MM

 

1 1 1 1 1

 

2 2 2 2 2

 

Because the large model charging can't fit between the models of unit 1, to reach the models of unit 2, it must go around them. This should leave it in an arrangement roughly like this:

 

 

1 1 1 1 1M

.............MM

2 2 2 2 2M

 

 

Which, if the two target units are close enough together, should put you in base contact with both, without any post-contact shenanigans.

 

Edit: fixed second diagram.

[ShinyRhino]

This is actually addressed right in the rulebook:

 

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models. that said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.

 

There's two reasons you can't pull off a secondary charge with a single model unit: only 'remaining models' can charge a primary or secondary target, and you can only charge a secondary target if you could not reach the primary target.

The single model unit can't base a secondary target because it COULD reach its primary target.

[Gentlemanloser]

This isn't too far fetched with something like a Nemesis Dreadknight and a Personal Teleporter.

 

You can move and angle you massive oval base into position to end up in base with 2 units.

 

Won't be easy, and you won't be able to do it often, but it's possible.

[SeattleDV8]

It might be 'possible' but it isn't allowed BRB pg. 28

If the inital charger successfully moves into base contact with the primary taget, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units....

 

The initial charger doesn't have the permission, only the 'remaining' models of the unit do.

[Gentlemanloser]

I see absolutley nothing there to restrict a model from being in b2b with another unit, if they are sucessful in reaching b2b with the primary unit following the assault rules.

 

A large enough base, espeically an oval one, could potentially allow you to satisfy the assault rules and also end up in b2b with another unit. Possibly even a vehicle.

[Venemox]

I see absolutley nothing there to restrict a model from being in b2b with another unit, if they are sucessful in reaching b2b with the primary unit following the assault rules.

 

A large enough base, espeically an oval one, could potentially allow you to satisfy the assault rules and also end up in b2b with another unit. Possibly even a vehicle.

 

 

Page 25, 'That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base to base contact with a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.'

 

No, you cannot end up with the initial (or only) model of the charging unit in base to base with both the primary AND secondary targets. This sentance speaks of 'charging models', and not 'remaining models', allowing it to apply to the initial charger.

[Gentlemanloser]

Page 25, 'That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base to base contact with a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.'

 

And as said, you've angled your massive oval shaped base just so, so that you are unable to move into b2b with the primary target, unless you also end up in b2b with a secondary...

[Venemox]

If you fail to reach your primary target, the charge fails. In it's entirety. Move no models. If you can reach an unengaged enemy model, you are forbidden for getting in base to base with the secondary target.

[dswanick]

Sorry, guys - but you are suffering from 5th Ed think. In 6th Ed a single model may assault multiple enemy units. It is unlikely to work, but it is possible.

The Movement Phase - Models in the way

1. "

A model can not move within 1" of an enemy model unless they are charging into close combat in the assault phase.

", BRB,

Pg

.10

 

Moving charging models

2. "

All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move -...- following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models.

", BRB,

Pg

.21

 

The Assault Phase - Move initial charger

3. "

Move the initial charger into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route.

", BRB,

Pg

.21

 

Multiple Combats - Move initial charger

4. "

Once Overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault(...) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would for a single target

", BRB,

Pg

.28

 

5. "

If the initial charger moves into base contact with the primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models.

", BRB,

Pg

.28

 

6. "

That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with an unengaged model in a secondary target, unless it can not move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.

", BRB,

Pg

.28

 

So long as the single assaulting model (who is the initial, and only, charger) moves directly into base contact with the closest model of the primary unit being charged(as per quotes #2 & #3), then it is a successful and legal charge. If, by doing so, the model also ends up in base contact with a model from a secondary unit - it is still a legal charge.

Quote #4 reinforces that in the case of a multiple combat, the charging model must still move to engage the closest model in the primary charged unit.

Quote #5 affirms that so long as the initial charger ends up in base contact with the closest model from the primary unit it is a legal charge, and allows additional models to move into base contact solely with models from secondary units. This does not prevent the initial charger from ending up in base contact with a model from a secondary unit in addition to a model from the primary unit - it just ensures that the initial charger doesn't end up solely in base contact with a model from secondary units.

Quote #6 only prevents charging models who can reach a model in the primary unit to charge a model in a secondary unit.

 

The end result of all this is - if the sole model in a charging unit (the initial charger) can move directly towards and into base contact with the closest model in the primary unit being charged, it is irrelevant (and perfectly legal) to also end up in base contact with a model from a secondary unit. That said, the odds of it happening in any given game are astronomically against.

[dswanick]

Here's a quick and dirty diagram relating to my above post.

In this diagram single model "red" shot at enemy "green" squad. "Red" declares a charge, and must do so against "green". "Red" declares a multi-charge against "green" and "yellow". Because his move brings him directly to "green" using the shortest route possible and ends with him in base contact - it is a legal charge. There are no prohibitions on the initial charger which would prevent him from making this move and thus ending up engaged with both "green" and "yellow".

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/assaultmove.png

[DarkGuard]

I would certainly agree with that. It's not prohibited, so it's perfectly legal, and could happen. I like your diagram dswanick (and your new avatar).

[dswanick]

I would certainly agree with that. It's not prohibited, so it's perfectly legal, and could happen. I like your diagram dswanick (and your new avatar).

Thanks. And yeah, if the positioning is even the slightest bit off (green is a fraction of an inch too far away or too close, yellow is the same or a degree too close or far from the "direct" approach to green) then the whole multi-charge falls apart, and could potentially nullify even the primary charge (by stopping the charger before he can get base contact with his primary target). Then, when you factor in the loss of the +1A charge bonus, it really becomes a high-risk/low-reward maneuver. The only possible use I can see are with models like Mephiston or a Daemon Prince, if you're looking to keep him locked in combat to avoid shooting or if you need to pin one enemy unit which wasn't worth firing at but was well positioned near a unit that was.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you want to smash a tank up, and keep an enemy unit locked in CC with you (so they can't get away, or shoot you next turn). Maybe you're using a Dread, and have charged a transport that has already disembarked the shooty unit inside.

[Leonaides]

The biggest point to remember is you're talkign mathematically potentially hypothetically possible - real world keep dreaming because you are talking about a situatin that would(!) only come up maybe once in a thousand games if that. Certainly I've never had it come up in any game I've ever played in for the last 18 years...

[dswanick]

The biggest point to remember is you're talkign mathematically potentially hypothetically possible - real world keep dreaming because you are talking about a situatin that would(!) only come up maybe once in a thousand games if that. Certainly I've never had it come up in any game I've ever played in for the last 18 years...

But you haven't been playing 6th Ed for the last 18 years. Remember, this is the "measure twice/cut once" edition - you have full authority to pre-measure any and all distances. So it is quite feasible to maneuver a model such that you can set up a dual-charge with some awareness of the tactic and careful measurement of moves. Again, I'm not saying this situation will occur often - but it can occur.

[Gentlemanloser]

Especially with a massive oval shaped base, Jump movement, and as said above, the aility to premeasure your miss-shapen base precisly before you roll for charge distance.

 

Harder for a single Power Armour base, for sure.

[Venemox]

6. "That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with an unengaged model in a secondary target, unless it can not move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.", BRB, Pg.28

 

Quote #6 only prevents charging models who can reach a model in the primary unit to charge a model in a secondary unit.

 

This was the point of my post. If a charging model (like say, the initial or only model) can reach an unegaged model in the primary unit, it is prohibited from making base to base with a model in the secondary unit. Since the initial (or only) charge MSUT make nase to base with the primary target, that model cannot also make base to abe with a model in the secondary unit.

 

Here's a quick and dirty diagram relating to my above post.

In this diagram single model "red" shot at enemy "green" squad. "Red" declares a charge, and must do so against "green". "Red" declares a multi-charge against "green" and "yellow". Because his move brings him directly to "green" using the shortest route possible and ends with him in base contact - it is a legal charge. There are no prohibitions on the initial charger which would prevent him from making this move and thus ending up engaged with both "green" and "yellow".

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l634/dswanick/assaultmove.png

 

 

In this diagram, 'red' must charge 'green', who is unengaged. If he can reach green, he is prohibted from being in base to base with 'yellow' by your own point # 6. If he can't reach 'green', the entire charge fails.

[dswanick]

This was the point of my post. If a charging model (like say, the initial or only model) can reach an unegaged model in the primary unit, it is prohibited from making base to base with a model in the secondary unit. Since the initial (or only) charge MSUT make nase to base with the primary target, that model cannot also make base to abe with a model in the secondary unit.

 

In this diagram, 'red' must charge 'green', who is unengaged. If he can reach green, he is prohibted from being in base to base with 'yellow' by your own point # 6. If he can't reach 'green', the entire charge fails.

Incorrect. You are applying rules written in the paragraph pertaining to subsequent chargers to the initial charger. Refer to Pg.28 of the BRB -

Multiple Combats - Move initial Charger

"

Once overwatch is resolved, find the initial charger for the primary assault (the model in the charging unit closest to the primary target) and attempt to move it into base contact with the primary target, just as you would against a single target. If his charge fails, the charging unit doesn't move at all.

", BRB,

Pg

.28, paragraph one

That paragraph covers all of the rules for moving the Initial Charger. There is no prohibition in this paragraph on ending up in base contact with only a model from the primary unit.

 

The next paragraph goes on and gives you the rules for how to move all other chargers once the Initial Charger has moved.

"

If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact

with the primary target,

remaining models can charge

models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models.

That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target.

", BRB,

Pg

.28, paragraph two

Your quoted prohibition is found only in the paragraph pertaining to subsequent charging models, and only applies after the initial charger has already made his successful charge move.

[Venemox]

A 'charging model' is the subject to that sentence. Not the ‘initial charger’ or 'remaining models'.

 

Let's go up one level from sentences and paragraphs to sections. The header for those paragraphs is called 'Move Initial Charger'. I posit that each and every particular detail of those sections, unless explicitly stated otherwise, must refer (at least) to moving the 'initial charger'.