Melta delivery units

[minigun762]

I'll start out by saying that I still believe melta weapons are valuable. Plasma and the like might be on the rise but sometimes you can't whittle down a vehicle fast enough or you didn't bring enough S8+ to stop that raider. Melta still does a great job of killing tanks or ID T4 models.

 

That said, what are the best ways to utilize it? I see 4 major options personally.

 

#1 bikers. Cheapest possible unit. Fast moving and durable, but must get within range the traditional way.

#2 raptor. Medium expense. Biggest advantage is you have deployment options, either on the table or deep strike.

#3 terminators. Good ol' termicide. More expensive but 2+ is more durable now and mauls are cheap tank busters.

#4 troops. Squads of CSMs or PM. Most expensive and relies on the weaker Rhino but scoring. If you run Abbadon, chosen are possible but have all of the same issues.

 

For me, I'm still feeling terminators. More durable means they are less of a throw away squad.

[the jeske]

bikers. your runing biker HQs anyway so you will run bikers . terminators this edition are better used in big units . 6-8 terminators with full combi plas load out draw fire from a whole army . raptors are higher cost , harder to use , bikers and runing a jump pack HQ gives us nothing .

 

pms or csm are too slow , it is better to give them plasma the change to rapid fire weapons and shoting this edition is a big boon for all those plasma units.

[allwaysoffside]

With troops I assume you include havocs that can take 4 meltas a squad and jump in a rhino?

 

Either way on foot, if you get to within 6 inches (which is where the melta really dones it work) of a L/R your opposition is an idiot. or you're a genius.

Foot slogers are too slow, rhinos are to fragial. Never on foot.

 

Termies - DS is too unreliable for me. You can end up to far away to use the 2D6. Which means rapid fire plasma guns are mathmaticly better against all armour upto 13. so if your aiming at taking out one tank inparticular - go plasma. if you need to remove a tank line, then fine. but targeting a LR with DS is not a good idea. It can work, but why risk it when there are better methods.

 

Raptors - same problem as termies unless you move them up the board in which case see below. if you do DS them, then why not go termies? DS behind the enemy is a sure fire way to get shoot to crap. Fine termines are twice the price. But they will handle twice the fire power.

 

Bikes - for three points you drop the jumppack and DS, but get +1T, 5++ save when moving, turbo boost. For minimum squad with two Meltas, bike are cheaper, 90pts to 115. Can not see past bikes.

 

Added note on radier hunting.

Raiders are used to drop elite troops (termies) stright into the heart of the enemy. If not they are wasted points. Which means whist I have said "troop are too slow" if you know there is raider coming your way, its possible to ambush the bloody thing. Even if your opposition sees this ambush the only real counter actions slow down the advance of the tank or risk the tank being wasted with the termies inside. Eitehr way, you meltas earn their keep.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Raptors - same problem as termies unless you move them up the board in which case see below. if you do DS them, then why not go termies? DS behind the enemy is a sure fire way to get shoot to crap. Fine termines are twice the price. But they will handle twice the fire power.

 

There is another option of raptors fast delivery: Master of Deception.

Huron will allow you to infiltrate at least 1 infantry unit. Since Jump Infantry is still considered infantry per rulebook you can infiltate them. Even if you are unable to deploy outside enemy los you deploy at 18", with a 12" movement you are within melta range on your first turn, something Termies cannot do.

[allwaysoffside]

Good idea. I like it. but if you dont have turn one armour is heading the other way. however, if its just raiders we are talking about, making it go the long way round so it take more time to get those termies in to HTH, is a good thing.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Good idea. I like it. but if you dont have turn one armour is heading the other way. however, if its just raiders we are talking about, making it go the long way round so it take more time to get those termies in to HTH, is a good thing.

 

Well since you can deploy anywhere at more then 18" from enemies units you can choose where the raptors are deployed. In that case you simly put the raptors at 18" form your vehicle target :lol:

 

I still like the idea of infiltrating terminators but I thought it was worth to mention the possibility to use master of deception as fast delivery for raptors...

[Lepaca]

Maybe also noteworthy: Slaanesh Lord on steed + combi-melta to outflank a Chosen/Havok melta squad?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

It's tough to argue against Bikes as the premier melta delivery system we now have, but I haven't quite given up the Rhino melta bus concept yet.

[empchildrenbob]

Who said melta wasnt valuable?Why not try chosen? For 160 you can get 2 meltas,a combi melta and melta bomb on the champ in a rhino. But for cheap fast melta I say go raptors with 2 melta for 115 or bikes of course. Either way, take advantage if the fact that all chamPs can get combi weapons.

[Marshal Goderic]

Raptors - same problem as termies unless you move them up the board in which case see below. if you do DS them, then why not go termies? DS behind the enemy is a sure fire way to get shoot to crap. Fine termines are twice the price. But they will handle twice the fire power.

 

There is another option of raptors fast delivery: Master of Deception.

Huron will allow you to infiltrate at least 1 infantry unit. Since Jump Infantry is still considered infantry per rulebook you can infiltate them. Even if you are unable to deploy outside enemy los you deploy at 18", with a 12" movement you are within melta range on your first turn, something Termies cannot do.

 

Please tell me where jump infantry is infantry because when i read it they are different, ie jump infantry can't embark into transports because it is not infantry, it is jump infantry.

 

I'm dying to be wrong about this but doubtful. please prove me wrong, please.

[Ifrit446]

Raptors - same problem as termies unless you move them up the board in which case see below. if you do DS them, then why not go termies? DS behind the enemy is a sure fire way to get shoot to crap. Fine termines are twice the price. But they will handle twice the fire power.

 

There is another option of raptors fast delivery: Master of Deception.

Huron will allow you to infiltrate at least 1 infantry unit. Since Jump Infantry is still considered infantry per rulebook you can infiltate them. Even if you are unable to deploy outside enemy los you deploy at 18", with a 12" movement you are within melta range on your first turn, something Termies cannot do.

 

Please tell me where jump infantry is infantry because when i read it they are different, ie jump infantry can't embark into transports because it is not infantry, it is jump infantry.

 

I'm dying to be wrong about this but doubtful. please prove me wrong, please.

 

Same here, you would MAKE MY DAY if you can prove this true. All sorts of maniacal ideas are brewing inside of my head right now ;)

[Cmdr Shepard]

Raptors - same problem as termies unless you move them up the board in which case see below. if you do DS them, then why not go termies? DS behind the enemy is a sure fire way to get shoot to crap. Fine termines are twice the price. But they will handle twice the fire power.

 

There is another option of raptors fast delivery: Master of Deception.

Huron will allow you to infiltrate at least 1 infantry unit. Since Jump Infantry is still considered infantry per rulebook you can infiltate them. Even if you are unable to deploy outside enemy los you deploy at 18", with a 12" movement you are within melta range on your first turn, something Termies cannot do.

 

Please tell me where jump infantry is infantry because when i read it they are different, ie jump infantry can't embark into transports because it is not infantry, it is jump infantry.

 

I'm dying to be wrong about this but doubtful. please prove me wrong, please.

 

Same here, you would MAKE MY DAY if you can prove this true. All sorts of maniacal ideas are brewing inside of my head right now ;)

 

It's on pag 47 of rulebook, especially the "bold text".

It says Jump is not a classification in and of itself but exists alongside other classifications, usually infantry and sometimes MCs. Those models follows the rules of both cetegories.

So Jump Infantry it's still infantry, since jump it's not an autonomous classification.

 

Jump Infantry can in fact embark transport but they follow the Bulky rules (thuse 1 model counts as 2 for embarking purposes). They canno embark rhinos because rhino FAQ says they cannot transport bulky models. They can embark a Land Raider, though.

 

It's not so controversial. On that matter 6th edition is greately different from 5th. 6th clearly states what I posted above: it's not my personal interpretation; it's actually RAW.

 

I hope it helped ;)

[Dallas Drake]

#5 Allied Screamers. Super at punching armour.

 

Dallas

[Noctus Cornix]

I just double checked this and Commander Shepard is absolutely correct.

 

Minds... They have been blown.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Jump Infantry can in fact embark transport but they follow the Bulky rules (thuse 1 model counts as 2 for embarking purposes). They canno embark rhinos because rhino FAQ says they cannot transport bulky models. They can embark a Land Raider, though.

 

Incorrect. Pg 78 of the DV rulebook under Transports states that "only Infantry can embark on Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise." No cramming Raptors and Warp Talons into Land Raiders.

[Noctus Cornix]

really? Damn I'll have to check that when I get back .

 

EDIT: ok just read it and khestra is correct. They can still be subject to master of deception but land raiders are a no go. ;)

[Ifrit446]

I just double checked this and Commander Shepard is absolutely correct.

 

Minds... They have been blown.

 

Even without transporting them, Raptors with Infiltrate sounds WONDERFUL!!

 

And yes noctus, MIND BLOWN :tu:

[x01848m]

I built a melta raptor squad specifically to use with Huron - it is the one case where raptors outshine bikes. I love it, especially for a night lords force.

[Noctus Cornix]

I built a melta raptor squad specifically to use with Huron - it is the one case where raptors outshine bikes. I love it, especially for a night lords force.

 

What does that have to do with Night Lords? :D

[the jeske]

using infiltration on raptors is a waste of the rule , specialy if the unit is something else then naked 5 man melta.

[AekoldHelbrass]

And what do you think about Vraks renegades as allies? Disciples of Xaphan are cultist*2 pts per model and 3 specials per squad, infiltrate built-in!

[Biaz]

Minds... They have been blown.

 

Haha this. Great work Shepard!

[Cmdr Shepard]

I just double checked this and Commander Shepard is absolutely correct.

 

Minds... They have been blown.

 

Haha this. Great work Shepard!

 

Thanks. :P If you succeed in destroying a vehicle in turn 1 due to this strategy you can inform your opponent you just used the "Shepard Manoeuvre", named after a member of B&C. ;)

Seriously, I'm glad I helped you. That's why we share our opinions on these forums.

 

Pg 78 of the DV rulebook under Transports states that "only Infantry can embark on Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise." No cramming Raptors and Warp Talons into Land Raiders.

Correct. I forgot about this exception to the general rule about infantry/jump infantry when I posted my reply. Anyway, the fact there is an exception proves by general rule jump infantry follows the rules of infantry for the purpose of Master of Deception.

[greenee22]

doesn't the rulebook state that jump infantry is counted as infantry in the case of transports (and many other occasions)? I havent got the rulebook here atm, but I really thought it worked that way. gonna check it though :P.

 

EDIT: my bad, on page 78 it says infantry does not include jump infantry.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Pg 78 of the DV rulebook under Transports states that "only Infantry can embark on Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specifically stated otherwise." No cramming Raptors and Warp Talons into Land Raiders.

Correct. I forgot about this exception to the general rule about infantry/jump infantry when I posted my reply. Anyway, the fact there is an exception proves by general rule jump infantry follows the rules of infantry for the purpose of Master of Deception.

 

I threw the MoD question into the Central Texas Wargaming forum, because that's usually where the biggest rules lawyers hang out, and none of them could provide a RAW counterargument to it. They seemed a bit puzzled as to why one would bother to Infiltrate Jump Infantry because of the "no charge on arrival" mechanic, but it seems perfectly legal to do so by RAW.