Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I've been running a 1000pt Black Tide with mixed success. I've been helped massively by facing dwindling numbers of mech opponents but hindered by lack of any anti-air capability. I'm now planning on taking the army up to 1500pts and was thinking of taking a few Whirlwind Hyperios' and some more bodies but i) I don't want to dilute the tide with tanks and ii) I've been planning to turn an old Terminator Captain that I've had lying around for ages into an Inquisitor, so I've started thinking about taking 500pts of Grey Knights. Specifically, I'm thinking of taking a ten-man Strike Squad with two Psycannons and a Halberd on the Justicar to Warp Quake Flamers, a TDA Inquisitor and a TL-LC/TL-MM Stormraven to hunt Flyers. Thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Probably not a bad idea, if your local meta has Flamers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3228065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 To be honest, I doubt if the coverage from two combat Squaded Strikes is going to do anything to inhibite flamer DSes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3228074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted November 3, 2012 Author Share Posted November 3, 2012 My meta is crawling with Flamers and Flyers. I'm not expecting the Strikes to single-handedly stop the Flamers, I'm expecting them to help out. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3228081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I know you said you don't want to dilute with tanks, but Rhino's would probably be better to help with Flamers than a single 10 man Strike Squad. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3228083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Not really. Two Combat squads can cover most of your castle comfortably, and you can use terrain to make any blindspots in your 'Quake' coverage untenable (impassable terrain, buildings blocking LOS). Templar Rhinos are expensive, ye olde 4th edition expensive. I'd actually bring multiple Raiders, because nothing makes Daemons cry harder in 6th than LRC. Screamers will tear them apart, but they have to survive a turn out in the open (landing turn), at which point you just drive up+shoot+jam Crusaders or Stormhammers down their throats (AP2 hurts but 15-man squads/3++ storm shields can weather it). MC's no longer auto-smash vehicles, even using the 'halve your attacks' ability they need 5's to pen (glances you can shrug off mostly, due to 4HP per Raider). Flamers do cause glances but again, only on a 4, and if they shoot your ride they aren't killing the cargo. There is also the time-honoured way of winning against Daemons. Kill his Troops, then laugh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3229008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 4, 2012 Share Posted November 4, 2012 Flamers laugh at Raiders mate. Auto glance and only needing 4 tampelts to touch one. I wouldn't go anywhere near a Raider if you face the Flamer/Screamer list. As for why Rhinos, you might stop an agressive DS flamer drop, but next turn your Strikes die as the Flamrs jump to them and melt them. Edit: Also you're gambling on first turn, as warp Quake won't help you (in such small numbers) if you go second. The Flamers will agressively DS and roast the two small 5 man squads, to stop you WQing the turn 2+ reserves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3229125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Auto glance and only needing 4 tampelts to touch one. It is really auto-glance? Sigh...GW cannot into game balance. I revise my earlier statement then, Raiders are terrible. Edit: Also you're gambling on first turn, as warp Quake won't help you (in such small numbers) if you go second. The Flamers will agressively DS and roast the two small 5 man squads, to stop you WQing the turn 2+ reserves. Assuming they can reach them. Can't fire over a closer unit of yours, they'll have to burninate whatever is in the way. Bubblewarp 101. I've fought Daemons before, the entire battle is won or lost at deployment (and that was with Tau, with all their overpriced units and gimped shooting phase). It's either 'bugger I forgot about that flank, they fit inside with scatter' or 'please deploy in front of all my guns'. Also, if the Daemon player is even slightly intelligent, they'll split their units between waves. He'll probably still hit hard on the initial drop, but its unlikely you'll fight all six units at once. New plan! Bring Templars as the Allied detachment (you don't miss out on much anyway, Terminators and Crusaders are your star units), have Henchmen as your main army. Psy-Razor spam can create a nice sturdy wall to take the first Screamer charge/Flamer barrage. Coteaz can then cast 'Sanctuary' to screw up the Screamer charge (dangerous terrain could still cause some wounds, they only have 5++). You then counter-charge a full Stormhammer unit into their face and hammer them to death. For the Allied Troops, bring two min Crusader squads with plasma cannon and plasma gun (Rhino is optional). You can't instant death him, so plasma offers better damage output. Storm bolter Acolyte spam is kinda urinating into the wind, one Flamer/Screamer face-rolls over a Henchmen squad anyway, but it would be amusing to counter his cheese with your cheese. Simpler would be to not play Templars against him. Sorry to say, but they're an average codex against balanced armies. This latest rash of 'hurr durr Flamers+Screamers' is designed to kill small elite armies that aren't Grey Knights. Your Stormhammers are just about the only thing worth taking, Crusaders scrape a pass due to 5-man heavy/special spam. I guess IG could shore you up to 'decent chance' (Blob Guard and Conscripts couldn't care less about templates), but yeah...Templars are getting updated soon anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3230874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 It is really auto-glance? Sigh...GW cannot into game balance. IIRC they cause a single auto glance per template. It could be on a 4+ though, like thier to wound. :/ New plan! Bring Templars as the Allied detachment (you don't miss out on much anyway, Terminators and Crusaders are your star units), have Henchmen as your main army. Psy-Razor spam can create a nice sturdy wall to take the first Screamer charge/Flamer barrage. Coteaz can then cast 'Sanctuary' to screw up the Screamer charge (dangerous terrain could still cause some wounds, they only have 5++). You then counter-charge a full Stormhammer unit into their face and hammer them to death. For the Allied Troops, bring two min Crusader squads with plasma cannon and plasma gun (Rhino is optional). You can't instant death him, so plasma offers better damage output. Storm bolter Acolyte spam is kinda urinating into the wind, one Flamer/Screamer face-rolls over a Henchmen squad anyway, but it would be amusing to counter his cheese with your cheese. :D Exactly the kind of thinking that got me to make my "Why GK?" Thread. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3230935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 IIRC they cause a single auto glance per template. It could be on a 4+ though, like thier to wound. :/ Still, they're likely to inflict enough hits to do it. Auto-glance though...I'll have to dig up the FAQ. Exactly the kind of thinking that got me to make my "Why GK?" Thread. Because they're awesome? Srsly, when you think about the point scales: - 20pts gets you a MeQ statline with a power sword, storm bolter, frags, kraks, and an anti-psyker nade. In addition, you can take a psychic test to make all models +1 Strength, or inflict specified (as opposed to 'double Toughness') Instant Death (which still overrides FNP). And a unique anti-Deepstrike power. - 26/29pts buys you a Fearless 2A version of the above, but you either go at I6 (the cheaper one) or go at AP2 S8 (S10 under 'Hammerhand') Concussive. And a unique power that hurts tarpits a lot. - 40pts buys you a TDA version of the 20pt base with 2A, and free upgrade to I6 or S8(S10). Squad upgrade is auto-Instant Death on wounds inflicted, at the price of one model losing his force weapon. - 55pts buys you a 2W version of above with WS5 to boot. And a unique anti-infantry psychic blast to prevent tarpitting happening to them (almost never use it, but its handy). You get what you pay for. Acolytes drop all of those attributes, get a massive price discount, and are either shooty or choppy (not both). Either squad also dies to massed small-arms pretty easily, hence the cheapness (shooty warband is ~150pts minus Chimera bunker cost, melee warband is ~150pts minus Tech-Marine cost and Raven cost). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/264869-allies-for-my-black-tide/#findComment-3231061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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