Psybolt, worth it?

[Vexicus]

Hail Brothers,

 

Does anybody take psybolt any more? I mean with the shift to infantry with 6th ed is there much point now. Pyscannons will wound most things on a 2+ anyway and S7 is enough to deal with most tanks anyway. The only real use i can see is to give the Stormbolters that little extra boost. What do you the more experienced players think?

 

Cheers

Vex

[Creamywynch]

I usually take psybolts on 10 man strikes and termies. the points investment spread out over large units is completely worth it. Strength 5 storm bolters are extremely useful. You are already hitting on 3's and now wounding marines on 3's and most other infantry units in the game on 2's. Add in prescience for re-rolls and you absolutely annihilate units in a turn. worth it for 20 points especially when every shot counts for grey knights. I dont leave home without it :)

[Vash]

Same as before. No change for me.

In a unit with 10 man or rather if atleast 7 members have use of the psybolts I go for them. That extra boost really helps and has secured many wins for me.

Outshooting necrons, at the same level as Tau with basic weapons, and with 2 shots.

Also, Light transports, Orks, Dark eldar (Necrons once their quantum shields are down) etc can be taken down with hull points.

[spartan249]

Psybolts only affect storm bolters, psycannons have always been unaffected.

 

That being said, Psybolts are ALWAYS worth it in a unit that has 8+ storm bolters. It dramatically increases your damage output against infantry, gives you much greater odds of destroying vehicles when deep striking and hitting up rear armor, and gives your basic weapons the ability to destroy AV11, meaning that Rhinos/Razorbacks cry themselves to sleep in their cases.

 

Don't take Psybolts at your own peril. That +1 strength can often mean the difference between a comfortable win and a close loss.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

S5 dakka is nice, but we ultimately don't need it. The same stuff that was immune to S4 is only slightly affected by the boost (6's are still hard to come by, even with our output). The stuff that'll die to S5 massed dies to S4 massed only slightly less. I'd invest the 20pts in more psycannons, an upgrade elsewhere, put towards a Rhino etc. We have much better uses for our points normally.

[BrotherWasted]

The 20pts we spend on our Psybolt is usually taken into consideration AFTER we've crammed as many Psycannons as we can into the army.

 

2 Points per Knight to turn my Storm Bolters into Sonic Blasters is perfectly fine by me.

[Vash]

The 20pts we spend on our Psybolt is usually taken into consideration AFTER we've crammed as many Psycannons as we can into the army.

 

2 Points per Knight to turn my Storm Bolters into Sonic Blasters is perfectly fine by me.

 

True, we usually buy Psycannons first, as they give more damage output for the same points.

But the upgrade will cost 2.5 pts per model not 2 ;)

Only 8 will use the psybolts, not all 10 members B)

 

I usually try to always include psybolts on my strikes as it really increases their damage output (or it feels like it atleast). For 240 pts you get a strike squad with 4-8 psycannon shots at S7, and 16 bolter shots at S5.

Not so bad for a Grey Knight unit.

[AnImA8]

I tend to think that this upgrade is totally worth it on squads of 10 strikes (as others have stated.) But to make this question a little more specific, what do y'all think of putting them on Purifiers? Since a primary consideration is the notion of spreading the cost out over the weapons (2.5 pts a model for 8 SB Strikes; excluding the 2 PsyCan Strikes), does this still seem worth it on 10 Purifiers with 4 PsyCans (now 3.33 pts a model for 6 SB Purifiers, excluding the 4 PsyCan Purifiers...)?

[Zeratul29]

I would say its not worth putting on the purifiers as you already have soo many psycannon shots coming out of the unit

[chaplainmeliadus]

Does anybody else put psybolts on vehicles? I occasionally but them on a Rhino with two storm bolters, just to suprise people :cuss

[Creamywynch]

Yes I use Psybolts on heavy bolter armed razorbacks which is very nice for those str6 shots, and of course for the autocannon armed dreadnought psybolts are a must. Another to consider is putting it on a storm raven armed with hurricane bolters, heavy bolters and assault cannons. Pretty nasty against infantry but a waste of the ravens potential I feel, especially as gk are so lacking in general anti tank/plasma.

[jeffersonian000]

I've stopped taking Psybolts, as the point investment was just not worth the minor increase to damage. Yes, S5 looks awesome, but it the fact is the difference between S4 and S5 attack on T4 enemies is minimal, and I'd rather have an extra body with a Stormbolter in my wound-pool to force more saves on my opponent's wound-pool.

 

SJ

[boreas]

I guess it depends on your most common opponents. I never play without it on a GKSS. The ability to mow down squads of Orks, IGs and nids is just too good. I'll often use the "re-roll ones to wounds" with TGS. Its gives me almost auto-wound vs T3, which is extremely annoying :) Also, the ability to hurt AV10-11 with glances is very convenient. I won't pay on units that have too many psycannons, though (purifyers, Paladins).

[BrotherWasted]

I've stopped taking Psybolts, as the point investment was just not worth the minor increase to damage. Yes, S5 looks awesome, but it the fact is the difference between S4 and S5 attack on T4 enemies is minimal, and I'd rather have an extra body with a Stormbolter in my wound-pool to force more saves on my opponent's wound-pool.

 

SJ

 

Putting two more S4 shots on the table does not come close to the additional benefit you gain from making 8 Knights wound on 3s instead of 4s.

 

It's like Furious Charge, but for shooting. Why wouldn't you do it?

[spartan249]

Yeah... 16.67% increased effectiveness per shot is quite a significant upgrade, as is the ability to glance AV11 with our basic weaponry. It's not only a "win more" upgrade, it provides you a new capability, which is one of the basic requirements of a must take upgrade.

[BrotherWasted]

Yup.

 

One Grey Knight with a S4 Storm Bolter and no Psybolt Ammo inflicts .22 wounds on MEQ.

 

8 Grey Knights with S4 Storm Bolters inflicts 1.77778... wounds

 

8 Grey Knights with S5 Storm Botlers inflicts 2.37 wounds.

 

That's roughly a 33% increase in lethality.

 

So, by purchasing Psybolt Ammo for the whole squad (which should be at maximum anyway), you basically guarantee the death of a 2nd MEQ, instead of adding 2 shots to your squad that have a 1/5 chance of killing something.

 

Buy the Psybolt Ammo for a 10-man squad. You have no reason not to, IMO.

[BrotherWasted]

Yes I use Psybolts on heavy bolter armed razorbacks which is very nice for those str6 shots, and of course for the autocannon armed dreadnought psybolts are a must. Another to consider is putting it on a storm raven armed with hurricane bolters, heavy bolters and assault cannons. Pretty nasty against infantry but a waste of the ravens potential I feel, especially as gk are so lacking in general anti tank/plasma.

 

We might lack Plasma (which we don't, because we have access to Henchmen, plus we have Force Weapons to deal with 3+ armor), but we carry the all-around best anti-tank weapon next to a Meltagun in every Knight Squad.

 

(I say best, because while a Melta weapon within half range is actually better, Psycannons don't have that range limitation and can pen at any fireable distance).

 

A 4-shot Psycannon is twice as good than a Lascannon at getting at least a glancing hit on AV14.

 

Odds of scoring at least a glancing hit on AV14:

 

Lascannon: 1-shot, 4/6 to hit, 2/6 to get 5 or higher on penetration = .2222222

Psycannon (heavy 4): 4 shots, 4/6 to hit, 1/6 to trigger rending (any rend is an automatic glance, 7 + 6 + 1 = 14) = .044444

 

 

They're still better at penetrating, too. Both weapons need 6 to penetrate or rend AV14:

 

 

Lascannon: 1-shot, 4/6 to hit, 1/6 to get 6 on pen roll = .1111111

Psycannon (heavy 4): 4 shots, 4/6 to hit, 1/6 to trigger rending, 4/6 to get 2 or 3 on rending roll = .0296296

 

 

We don't lack anti-tank. Not when we pack basically the statistical equivalent of 5 lascannons in a basic Strike Squad.

 

===

 

"But, Wasted, what happens if your Psycannons are moving?"

 

Well, the Psycannon is still superior, because it's basically a Rending Autocannon.

 

To penetrate AV14, an Assault-mode Psycannon has .148 chance. A 1-shot lascannon has .111 as mentioned previously.

[jeffersonian000]

1.7778 is approximately 2.

 

2.37 is approximately ... 2.

 

Like I said, looks great, but its only a minor increase, not a major one. And that is if you take the units in question in a vacuum (which this forum loves to do). I take 3 TDA units, two 10man, one 5man. I can take one extra TDA with my 5 man squad for 40 points, or I can buy Psybolts for the two 10man squads at the same price. If I fire all three units at the same target, do I get 6 guaranteed kills with Psybolts? Do I get 6 guaranteed kills without Psybolts? Is that 1 wound gained for the 5man worth more than the .6 wounds lost per 10man?

 

I don't find the cost worth it ... for me.

 

SJ

[BrotherWasted]

1.7778 is less than 2. Which is to say, on average, you are not killing 2 MEQ.

 

With Psybolts, on average, yes, you are killing 2 MEQ.

 

No, one more Terminator on the table is not worth the extra wounds that your other 16 Knights will be able to cause.

 

In your example, your three squads give you, before buying Psybolts:

 

20 S7 Psycannon Shots

40 S4 Storm Bolter shots

 

Buying Psybolts gives you:

 

20 S7 Psycannon Shots

32 S5 Storm Bolter shots

8 S4 Storm Bolter shots

 

Buying a Terminator gives you:

20 S7 Psycannon Shots

42 S4 Storm Bolter shots

[boreas]

In a sense, though, I understand what Jeffersonian means... Let's say you have lots of DCA and psycannons. Assaulting MEqs and shooting vehicles is already something your army can do, so psybolts are less useful. I usually play with less psycannons than the usual GK player (6 in a 1500-1850pts list), so the extra kick vs light vehicles, as provided by psybolts, is much more useful.

 

To me, it comes down to this: GKSS need psybolts to shine. They are mid-table harrasser and psybolts+2psycannons can damage any "regular" units (meaning most troops, elites, fast) while soaking wounds. They'll end up the game "making their points back". Paladins and purifyers will usually not justify the cost, because they either have to few stormbolters and will see more assault (usually mopping up what's been damaged by my GKSS). So my games usually look like this: First 1-2 turns: all units advance, shooting. Turn 3-4: Purifyers, paladins and NDK assault while GKSS hang back, still shooting. Turn 5-6: Purifyers, paladins and NDK still alive keep the opponent back while GKSS advance to grab objectives, still shooting.

 

On an average game, a GKSS unit of 10 models with 2 psycannons can put out about 60 stormbolters shots (40 hits), as I lose some models in the course of the game. On a Meq, that's 27 wounds instead of 20, so only an average of 2 more kills. Vs GEq (my most common opponents), it's 33 wounds instead of 27, so 6 more kills (less in cover). But as I ofter use the "re-roll ones to wound" strategy (via my GKGM), it's almost 38 wounds instead of 27. That really makes a difference when you've decided to take out that autocannon unit or lascannon unit that using "bring it down" order to kill your NDK!!!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

In summary:

 

- Strikes want it (take full squads to get the 2nd psycannon anyway

- Purifiers don't (full squad has quad psycannon anyway, and the rest wanna invest in halberds/hammers)

- Terminators might (only after you first take Bro Banner and double psycannon, don't skimp on those)

- Paladins don't (they get double psycannon per 5-dudes, and unless you run Draigowing you are running 5-man combat squads usually)

- Razorbacks do (BolterBacks like being S6, assault cannons = psycannons)

- Dreadnoughts do (obviously)

 

As others have mentioned, always be cognisant of the fact we're a small elite army, and its often hard to get the basics into a list. If you really have nothing better to invest in, yeah its a useful upgrade that will have an impact. I'd think really carefully though, as 20pts adds up across even a couple of squads.

[adamv6]

Taking psybolts has several times changed the complete stance of the game.

 

People forget that S5 bolters can glance AV11 to death.

 

I have stopped a rhino line dead in its tracks, meaning the contents have then had to walk through my stormbolter fire for an extra turn.

 

2pts per model for +1 strength on a Stormbolter is an absolute bargain.

[jeffersonian000]

2pts per model for +1 strength on a Stormbolter is an absolute bargain.

 

I'd concur, if it was 2pts per model. But its 5pts per model, which can add up to more models in my case.

 

SJ

[spartan249]

... it's neither. The flat rate means that some units like it while others don't. For the ones that stand the most to gain from it, psybolts are basically a must have. For others, not so much.

[Vash]

2pts per model for +1 strength on a Stormbolter is an absolute bargain.

 

I'd concur, if it was 2pts per model. But its 5pts per model, which can add up to more models in my case.

 

SJ

 

Considering maximum psycnanons/incinerators/Psilensers:

 

- A 10 man unit 8 members use the the psybolts. 2.5 pts per model.

 

- A 5 man unit 4 members will use the psybolts. 5 pts per model.

 

 

So, yes if you play with 5 man units it will be 5 pts.

But hey, why not get a 10 man unit, buy the upgrade, and combat squad them? Then it will be 2.5 pts.

Anyhow, it all depends on how you build the unit really.