My eyes are red.. but my armor?.. is green... with envy

[Chimerical]

Don't get too up in arms about the rumours at this point. They might be Grey Knights ridiculous or they might just turn out to be on the Blood Angels and Space Marines level.

 

Usually, it's simply a matter of whether the units are point-costed appropriately. My personal opinion is that Ward doesn't radically undercost things much more often than the other writers (Coteaz + Psybolts on Dreads + Nightscythe VS Vendettas + Manticores VS Grey Hunters + Long Fangs). The problem is when he makes a bunch of 'cool ideas', some of which break the game (see: Warp Quake, Cleansing Flame). Seeing as most of his worst offenses come from the GK codex, and SMs, BAs and Necrons are on the whole just good codexes (Nightscythes being the only 'game breaking' element), I'm willing to take a wait-and-see approach with DA.

 

If worst comes to worst, play your Chaos as counts-as DA! I sure will, after I waited so damn long for a good chaos dex and didn't take the opportunity to play counts-as SW.

[Trevak Dal]

Well it's reached that time of year where I don't wargame very much. New Cod Day is coming, and Halo 4 seems to be the Second Coming of Halo (been watching the Live stream Early Access).

 

I don't like where the Chaos codex went, I don't like the Daemon Engines, and given the popularity of the complaint and Problems posts, I don't think I'm alone. There's a lot of disappointed people, who wanted their turn at the Power Trough, and got failed by Phil. We don't get anything for Free (except the models we already got...). We don't even get a higher capacity Land Raider. I guess we're the Xenos Marines like Sisters of Battle, the ones quirky people play who want to be shiney pennies.

 

I don't really have many of the problems that a lot of people have though. I don't play in tournaments, and I have fun with the Chaos codex as is, though it feels like they put more effort into it than a White Dwarf update, if half of these rumors are true (and as others have pointed out, Rumors tend to be over the top on power level) it will really feel like GW "Couldn't have been bothered" and threw out fan favorite Phil Kelly to stem the tide of dissent (and pay penance for the Space Wolves codex).

[Rain]

I don't like where the Chaos codex went, I don't like the Daemon Engines, and given the popularity of the complaint and Problems posts, I don't think I'm alone. There's a lot of disappointed people, who wanted their turn at the Power Trough, and got failed by Phil. We don't get anything for Free (except the models we already got...). We don't even get a higher capacity Land Raider. I guess we're the Xenos Marines like Sisters of Battle, the ones quirky people play who want to be shiney pennies.

 

But it doesn't have to be like that. Chaos has the potential to be a very popular faction as we are the antagonists of the universe, it's just that the people that are writing our books don't "get it". I still remember in the first part of the 3.5 codex under the "Why Play Chaos" heading Pete Haines talked about how Chaos wasn't about cackling and incompetent Scooby Doo villains but a faction that is as trained, hard bitten, and well equipped as the heroes but ones who are fundamentally personally flawed. This makes them compelling and credible, and he really "got it", just like Phil "got it" for Dark Eldar, but for some reason he just didn't for Chaos. We are the stormtroopers, and we used to be Darth Vader.

[Azekai]

I don't like where the Chaos codex went, I don't like the Daemon Engines, and given the popularity of the complaint and Problems posts, I don't think I'm alone. There's a lot of disappointed people, who wanted their turn at the Power Trough, and got failed by Phil. We don't get anything for Free (except the models we already got...). We don't even get a higher capacity Land Raider. I guess we're the Xenos Marines like Sisters of Battle, the ones quirky people play who want to be shiney pennies.

 

But it doesn't have to be like that. Chaos has the potential to be a very popular faction as we are the antagonists of the universe, it's just that the people that are writing our books don't "get it". I still remember in the first part of the 3.5 codex under the "Why Play Chaos" heading Pete Haines talked about how Chaos wasn't about cackling and incompetent Scooby Doo villains but a faction that is as trained, hard bitten, and well equipped as the heroes but ones who are fundamentally personally flawed. This makes them compelling and credible, and he really "got it", just like Phil "got it" for Dark Eldar, but for some reason he just didn't for Chaos. We are the stormtroopers, and we used to be Darth Vader.

^Rain hit it out of the park. Chaos has such potential, and this codex and it's predecessor simply squandered it.

[Hellrender]

just noticed our dex doesnt even have a ''Why play'' section anymore.

[Nehekhare]

just noticed our dex doesnt even have a ''Why play'' section anymore.

 

HA! this is revealing on so many levels...

[Sception]

Most of these dark angels rumors sound like the kind of wishlisting rumors we got right before our book - remember 2 wound chosen terminators? remember helbrutes with hades autocannons or dual AP3 flamers?

 

Yeah, I'm not going to get worked up about the dark angels book yet. Oh, I fully expect it to be an ott ward monstrosity, those claiming that we're just the new 'balanced' for 6e are forgetting that Necrons had to have been designed with 6e in mind, but even so, I just can't get worked up about it yet.

 

Besides, even if dark angels weren't on par with necrons or grey knights, even if they weren't up to Blood Angel, Guard, or Space Wolf levels, that wouldn't really help us, would it? Why should dark angels players suffer a half-hearted shrug of a book just because we did? If anything, a strong dark angels book gives us yet another 'counts as' out for chaos players who get tired of our book. Maybe black legion as deathwing, or night lords as ravenwing or word bearers as just plain old bitter marines with fancy chaplains.

[the jeske]

I still stand by my earlier assessment that we are the 6th ed. tyranids.

 

Except that the last Tyranid book was actually good.

:blush:

 

I see no problem with the new DAs. I am sure all DA players and some non DA players are going to be very happy using it or parts of it . Lots of potential 4 different builds with distinct and different game play , new lore . What is there not to like . It would be of course awesome to get a a full geared flyer for under 185pts , but not everyone can be IG/necron.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking of focusing on my Craft world eldar, or perhaps start a small (500-1000pts) Dark eldar or Blood angel force...

[Northstar]

On the note of the nids:

 

Flesh hooks USED to be aweseome, back in 3rd where you could use them to treat impassible terrain as difficult terrain, AND use them as grenades AND get an extra close combat attack.

 

nids were nerfed to the nine hells since 3rd though, like most xenos armies it seems... -.-

 

Just wait, you think that the Chaos dex is okay for now, either the DA dex or a *new* C:SM dex will be printed (more than likely both) and chaos will be slapped down.... again...

 

all the loyalist love is... tiring.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

On the note of the nids:

 

Flesh hooks USED to be aweseome, back in 3rd where you could use them to treat impassible terrain as difficult terrain, AND use them as grenades AND get an extra close combat attack.

 

nids were nerfed to the nine hells since 3rd though, like most xenos armies it seems... -.-

 

Just wait, you think that the Chaos dex is okay for now, either the DA dex or a *new* C:SM dex will be printed (more than likely both) and chaos will be slapped down.... again...

 

all the loyalist love is... tiring.

This, my gaming group is getting tired of it I know people who quit because they got fed up of it and more and more of my gaming group is experimenting because they are getting sick to death of the endless constant bias in the rules towards the imperium and the odd non imperium race.

Edit:I'm thinking of possibly dusting off my wolves if the Dark angels come out as planned and the other codecci are similar...

[Agerjag]

Even with the new DA rumours unless they give them psybolt ammo they look alot like grey knights paladins but slightly worse which is something we already face and its not that big of a deal. I admit that dark angels is my primary army and favorite army and if anyone needs an update its them. As chaos in this edition and the last the lists that I could always clean out easily was paladins and terminator builds. With obliterators and double plasma plague marines these lists fall apart pretty fast. Maybe because I play dark angels I have always favored heavy plasma builds so 2+ in not that big a deal. I think that we have had more problems with horde armies then PA or TDA and we got some help this edition by being able to field more guys. With as many at I ap 2 weapons as we can have(AoBF, Khârn, any Prince) these things will not be as much of an issue as people seem to think. I have much more problems with just efficiently costed Space Wolves then anything else. Now that being said we dont really know the points cost, so dark angels could still be completely worthless like they are now, or passable or super busted (30 point termies with free options or something else with no foresight). I think personally they will be similar to grey knights in terms of power but I dont see them getting some of the things that make grey knights a force to be reckoned with(psy ammo, psychic pilots, warpquake, psycannon, Aegis). They will get their own nifty things but I dont feel they will be that game breaking(though ward can of course prove me wrong).

 

Also i should mention that you guys are complaining about imperial love when guess whose winning most of the tournaments? Daemons and Necrons...amazing.

 

EDIT: orks are also making a showing, mostly as allies though.

[Sception]

The imperial complaints are understandable due to the overlap between chaos marine and other marine books. In many cases, they are just us but better, particularly space wolves which are not only another marine book, but another marine 'barbarian' book. When our strongest selling point among marine books is that we can ally daemons (or, rather, daemons can ally us), that's not exactly promising. And when even that selling point is on a limited lifespan (daemons are getting a new book soon, which will almost certainly kill the cross-book functioning of the tally, and could certainly see the nerfing of the recently boosted tzeentch specialists), well....

 

And I still see a lot of grey knights in my area. If they're not winning, it's only because 'able to beat grey knights' is one of the prerequisites for any list that wants to place well.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

It doesn't have to have gunpowder to be a grenade. It just needs to act like a grenade. Also I didn't blame him. I simply said that is the most abstract grenade I have ever heard of simply because it doesn't behave like a grenade. More like a shotgun version of Scorpion's "Get Over Here!" snake-spear-thingymajig.

More abstract than Slaaneshi musk? :) That seems a lot more abstract to me. At least flesh hooks are still stuff that makes the other side duck for cover like frag grenades do

[Kol Saresk]

It doesn't have to have gunpowder to be a grenade. It just needs to act like a grenade. Also I didn't blame him. I simply said that is the most abstract grenade I have ever heard of simply because it doesn't behave like a grenade. More like a shotgun version of Scorpion's "Get Over Here!" snake-spear-thingymajig.

More abstract than Slaaneshi musk? :huh: That seems a lot more abstract to me. At least flesh hooks are still stuff that makes the other side duck for cover like frag grenades do

Slaanesh musk could be like Blight Grenades, chemical warfare. After all, smoke grenades can be used for both defense and offense. In real life.

 

Flesh hooks are hooks that pop out of a Nid's chest and are used to pull him closer to whatever he's trying to get to. They're like grappling hooks. Therefore, abstract.

[Azekai]

The imperial complaints are understandable due to the overlap between chaos marine and other marine books. In many cases, they are just us but better, particularly space wolves which are not only another marine book, but another marine 'barbarian' book. When our strongest selling point among marine books is that we can ally daemons (or, rather, daemons can ally us), that's not exactly promising. And when even that selling point is on a limited lifespan (daemons are getting a new book soon, which will almost certainly kill the cross-book functioning of the tally, and could certainly see the nerfing of the recently boosted tzeentch specialists), well....

 

If the above proves true, that really chaps my hide. Why would there not be collaboration between daemons and CSM? Synergy should be encouraged, not smothered. What is the purpose of having our two armies be Battle Brothers when all the new rules go out of their way to state that the abilities and characters cannot work together?! It is bad enough that there is such division between the armies as is.

[Sception]

I was hoping to see more ally synergy as well, but the new chaos book sets a strong precedent for 'no rules interaction between allies at all', going out of its way to make sure daemons were excluded wherever possible from the benefits of chaos marine rules. That they cannot use the key in particular was galling, from a narrative gameplay perspective. Then FAQs restricted fateweaver to daemon codex units only. Tally's the only remaining explicit synergy, and given where things have been going, I'm not even sure it will make it all the way to the daemon book without being FAQ'd*, it's got almost no chance of making it into their new codex.

 

*seriously, all it will take is one key designer guy getting stomped by a lucky abby/typhus/epi list, and that thing'll be FAQ'd away in a week.

 

 

That's not to say there will be no synergy between chaos marine and daemon allies, they very well may cover each other's weaknesses or form effective combined forces, but it won't be explicit rules synergy unless their design philosophy on allies does a complete 180 in the next few months.

 

As for tzeentch stuff - well their currently excellent heralds are going to take a major hit from the new big book chariot rules, assuming they go the same way that slaaneshi chariots did. And with how effective flamers and screamers are right now, I'd almost be surprised if they don't see nerfs. In particular, I expect the screamers' warp jaws attacks to go back to a single attack they can make in place of their regular attacks, rather than just applying to every attack they make.

 

 

This is all just wild speculation, and things could easily go the other way, but my point is that I wouldn't be going out right now to drop hundreds of dollars on a daemon army or allied detachment when they've got a new book less than a year out that could look like anything, and as per typical GW fashion the good stuff in their new book is unlikely to be the same as the good stuff now.

[Agerjag]

Synergy is encouraged in the way that you should take allies that fill deficiencies in your list. Cheap effective troops or some needed vehicle hunting or something. What they should NOT do is make it so that special rules interact in ways that make them must haves. Right now the tallyman lists are a little like this but with tzeench daemons also being really strong right now it makes it a little less so. Its nice to have army wide special rules but id hate to be stuck in the situation of feeling like i must take something because it has such obvious synergy. I really disliked that I felt that I had to take transports in every list for every army I own last edition. I really liked playing a slog list of Dark Angels 3rd Company but it was nearly impossible. The current chaos codex and allies I feel give me a great variety of options to play how I would like. You can still do MEQ lists with armor saturation, mass bikes, horde marines and all are descently viable (maybe not against necron air but for all comers lists).

 

In any case the Icons with daemons made sense when we had daemons in our book, but now that we do not it would be a must have when allying daemons. Its obviously not something they want us to have for one reason or another or they would just give us some teleport homers.

 

Also on the subject of grenades, assault gernades just basically stall your opponent while you deal with climbing a wall or maneuvering over some ruins or rocks. I think its pretty cool that the nids just deal with the problem of getting over terrain faster to make up the difference in speed and reaction times. Of course I gotta say musk takes the cake when it comes to how crazy far you can take that idea(still makes sense, just weird).

[alphariusomegon20]

I still stand by my earlier assessment that we are the 6th ed. tyranids.

 

"And when all the new codecii and FAQ rulings foam up around their waists, and all the heretics and traitors will look up and shout "save us!" and Phil will look down and whisper "No." They had a choice, all of them. They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar. Instead they followed the droppings of mutants and daemons and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late."

No! Don't insult Rorschach like that! Never do that to him! I don't care if he is a good guy!

 

On a side note, what exactly would the Tyranids use for grenades? Plasmaworms? Also, I don't think I've ever even heard of Tyranids and anything even approaching a grenade.

 

 

Didn't Frag Spines count as defensive grenades at one point?