Sanguinary Guard + SM JP Librarian

[L30n1d4s]

Much has been remarked about the (relative) improvement to units with 2+ armor saves in 6th edition, given the reduction in PW AP values. I believe this forum has already commented extensively about what this could mean for Sanguinary Guard and how to employ them.

 

I was reading elsewhere that units with power weapons can generally avoid Terminators, since they are slower, thus enabling the PW unit to target enemies with a 3+ save or worse. That made me think "yes, they can avoid Terminator-like units, except for Sanguinary Guard, which is one of the only non-HQ units in the game that has a 2+ save and can move 12" or more in a turn (i.e. Dreadknight with a PT is one of the other few). Combine that with them being Fearless and you have a unit that can effectively get the charge, chop up tough enemy units, and absorb the return attacks. What SG lack compared to Terminators is a 5++ save, Relentless, and access to heavy shooting weapons. This is where the allied SM JP Librarian comes in, I think. Without having to roll for it, SM Libbys can choose powers like Force Dome, Null Zone, Avenger, and Vortex of Doom. Say you take Force Dome and Null Zone... now your Sanguinary Guard have that 5++ save and can force re-rolls of enemy Invul saves when you go up against units like Terminators or characters with an Iron Halo, Sigil, etc.

 

Imagine a unit of one allied SM Libby (Epistolary, JP, Force Axe, Null Zone, Force Dome), 5SG with five Axe Glaive Encarmines, and a Sang Priest with Power Axe... because of JPs, they have a high chance of getting off the charge, giving them 21 S6 AP 2 attacks on the charge, all with forced enemy Invul re-rolls.... against normal Terminators, that yields an average of 7-8 dead TDA models.... against TH/SS Termies, that yields an average of 4-5 dead Termies ... swing back, a unit of 5 enemy Terminators gets 10 attacks, 5 hits, 4-5 wounds, and 2-3 unsaved wounds... as you can see, even against TH/SS Termies, that is a pretty decent tradeoff, at least according to Mathammer.

 

Curious, anyone out there have any experience using SG + SM Jump Pack Librarian effectively?

[SamaNagol]

The TH/SS terminators get 4 wounds back. So you have just spent 450pts to mutually destroy a 200pt unit....

[mmaarrkk]

And that unit would be at least 350pts and a imo weak libby in there, once he takes a wound to perils or otherwise you wont want to be casting powers. Why not put a sang priest in there for 5+FnP and furious charge?,

 

Also how are they getting 21 attacks on charge?

[SnorriSnorrison]

And that Sanguinary Guard unit is useless after the terminators strike, even 3-4 wounds means 3-4 dead SG marines. Now you have a SM libby, a Priest and maybe two SG. That's only two models with a 2+ save.

 

To kill Terminators, there's nothing better than plasma in this edition. Don't even bother with close combat if you're not on a suicide mission. It's much better to simply buy a 5 men devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons. Add a Priest if you're funky, and place them in a ruin.

 

 

 

Snorri

[mmaarrkk]

Only faced terminators a few times, terminators on terminators is ok hammnators of course are better powerfist on powerfist is usually mutual desctruction. DC have done very well on charge against TH SS termies.

[L30n1d4s]

@SamaNagol --- I don't think you gents are taking into account Null Zone and Force Dome.... Termies of any kind (except LC) would only do 2-3 wounds back (i.e. Force Dome give 5++), versus the 4 (TH/SS) or 7 (Regular Termies) they suffer themselves (remember, Null Zone drops TH/SS down to a 4++ equivelant and regular Termies down to a 6++ equivelant).

 

@Mmaarrkk --- If you look close, there is a Sang Priest in there... hence, FNP (not agsint TH or PF Termies, but most everything else) and also Furious Charge on everything but the SM Libby.. hence S6 AP2 (FC + Power Axe)... also, their are 7 units (5 SG + SM Libby + Sang Priest =7 models, each with 2 atatcks base, 3 on the charge), which comes out to 21 attacks on the charge. Also, I agree with you about Death Company, but I am looking at Sang Guard here and how they play with a SM Libby (and the 5++ save and Null Zone force multiplier he can provide).

[DominicJ]

I don't think you gents are taking into account Null Zone and Force Dome.... Termies of any kind (except LC) would only do 2-3 wounds back (i.e. Force Dome give 5++), versus the 4 (TH/SS) or 7 (Regular Termies) they suffer themselves (remember, Null Zone drops TH/SS down to a 4++ equivelant and regular Termies down to a 6++ equivelant).

 

But 2 to 4 is a fair showing for 225 pts to 450pts.

 

Face 450pts of Hammernators, and your SG/Libby squad probably wont survive, let alone "win".

[Drunken Angel]

Yesterday I ran 15 Sanguinary Guard with BA libby and priest, one squad sat back the other 2 squads ran with each other and the priest covered both of them, I had three bikes and 2 stormravens for support. I avoided termies and problems like that. The SG are for cutting down troops jumping out of wrecked vehicles. Snorri is right, its a waste to use SG on SS/TH termies when you can shoot them which is my best advice for those things. I do differ from Snorri as I will find the points and take a Raven over a devi squad, watch those termies scuttle for cover when a raven turns up.

A BA libby with divination can get what the SM libby offers albeit randomly off the lore table divination but in 2 games yesterday my libby got off his powers twice and this failure was costly. A priest supporting the SG is reliable and a Raven or devis supporting SG is even more reliable.

[SamaNagol]

The Terminators aren't going to really lose any casualties to the swords. Maybe an unlucky one.

 

Then the Axes swing simultaneously with the probable 5 Thunder Hammers. And they score 5 hits. 4.16 wounds. 2.77 unsaved with Force Dome. So I was 1 wound over on my guestimate.

 

The Sergeant can challenge off the Librarian as well. Which doesn't end well.

 

You may as well just run SG cheap and cheerful at 230pts with the Banner these days. 3 Swords and an Axe. Sure a JP Libby with Prescience and a JP Priest would be nice, but that doubles the cost of the unit. And they can take on pretty much anything.

 

If you want to kill TH/SS terminators just take Coteaz and a Storm Raven full of Death Cultists with a couple of Banishers in there. Fun times.

[mmaarrkk]

Personnaly at that sort of cost I'd run vanguard with a few PW or LC's so they can deepstrike and charge, planning on using a squad, 4 with LC's and sarg with power axe in a game soon, the plan would be to target devi's long fangs

[Ushtarador]

Sanguinary Guard are a nice tool to cut up everything except terminators. You can suicide into regular terminators and usually take them out on the charge (if it's a ~5man squad), but you probably won't survive, so I would not do that unless I gained a big advantage by wiping out this specific unit. Sometimes it's worth it, but only if you run them with nothing but a banner.

 

If you add more characters to the unit, I find it becomes too juicy of a target for your opponent. A big advantage of SG is that they are able to go through multiple power-armoured units without taking losses and not die to bolterfire while costing only 230pts. If you put more points into them, you will find that they fall very quickly to focussed AP2 fire because they suddenly become a prime target instead of one threat amongst many others.

[SamaNagol]

Personnaly at that sort of cost I'd run vanguard with a few PW or LC's so they can deepstrike and charge, planning on using a squad, 4 with LC's and sarg with power axe in a game soon, the plan would be to target devi's long fangs

 

Putting the Axe on the sergeant means he is swinging at I1 in challenges with only a 3+ save so he will die before he gets to swing back against most Sergeant level characters swinging at I4/5. A good load out for a VGV sergeant if you want him to have an axe is a Glaive Encarmine Axe (which is free still) and a Storm Shield so he can survive through til his initiative step.

 

I wouldn't personally run a hugely expensive VGV squad because A: a 5 man squad with 2 power weapons max will butcher a Long Fangs squad (and remember you dont want to kill them in one assault phase leaving yourself unengaged and open to enemy fire in their turn) and B: they are only 3+ saves on 30+pt models

 

/

 

I think Sanguinary guard are good and have a role, but that role is not Death Star. You can Deep Strike them in behind LoS blocking cover and then get a 18"+ charge off next turn into something that needs stopping.

 

I personally really like how Death Company, VGV and Sanguinary Guard all do the same job but in subtly different ways

[Ushtarador]

A good load out for a VGV sergeant if you want him to have an axe is a Glaive Encarmine Axe (which is free still) and a Storm Shield so he can survive through til his initiative step.

 

Pretty sure you can't give him a stormshield with the glaive, glaives are 2handed.

[Sinful eyes]

A good load out for a VGV sergeant if you want him to have an axe is a Glaive Encarmine Axe (which is free still) and a Storm Shield so he can survive through til his initiative step.

 

Pretty sure you can't give him a stormshield with the glaive, glaives are 2handed.

 

I think you can though, as SM captains like to run around with Relic Blades and Stormshields, with the Relic Blades being two-handed.

[Ushtarador]

Hm thats a point, someone with a rulebook to the rescue plz? ^^

[Xenith]

relic blade and SS is fine.

 

Id still prefer the claw, though, rerolls to wound are a bit better.

[DominicJ]

I wouldn't say fine, its raw, but space marines don't have three arms!

[mmaarrkk]

Champion in command squad, sword combat shield and bolt pistol, BP built into shield, :)

 

Didnt storm shields used to be wrist or arm mounted?

[SamaNagol]

2 handed weapons can never be combined with another weapon to get a 2nd attack. Doesn't mean you cannot take one. You will notice that Sanguinary Guard can have Plasma and Infernus Pistols along with their Glaives.

[AGPO]

RAW says you can't use a two handed weapon with another to gain another attack. It says nothign about using another cc item which works in a different way. Besides which, using a blade and shield in tandem is very different to coordinating two seperate weapons.

[Morticon]

I wouldn't say fine, its raw, but space marines don't have three arms!

 

yeh- that was the old rules- where you had hands per weapon. Doesnt exist anymore - so, good to go!