How do you beat these lists with CSM

[Loher]

So guys, i t is like 20 days i am trying to figure out how to beat some of the most popular lists that show around in mo local tournament scene, they are:

 

1) Imperial guard with 3/4 Valkyrie/Vendetta and a couple of huge toy soldiers blob

 

2) Dark Eldar's Venoms spam with a couple of Razorwing and Satanix (joke intended :))+huge unit of beastmasters

 

3) Tzeentch's demons army made of 3x9 Screamers units, 2x9 Flamers unit and any other unit to its owner taste to fill the points gap

 

4) Grey knights

 

5) Necrons Scythes spam

 

I must admit that the most fearful list is the Tzeentch one, those Screamers are really broken, while the GKs seems more arginable. I am gonna say that I would like to take Slaanesh back to its glory against those, though I have enough models to play with any of the major god unit/mark. I chose Slaneesh because the ability to strike at I5 and FnP seems like a really boost against those armies, but feel free to give me any advice you can.

 

Loher

[Nehekhare]

I too am very much interested in an answer to that question and would like to add

 

6) Space Wolves Mech/Horde

 

7) Tyranid Tervigon spam

 

8) Ork green tide

[Hellios]

First it depends on what you are willing to allow yourself to take. Pure CSM codex? or are daemons and IG acceptable to you?

[Sception]

Let's say for the sake of argument that any of our allowed ally factions are acceptable, but that CSMs must be the primary detachment.

[Shuggnuggath]

My screamers die to massed boltgun fire, they are only T4 with a 5++. On the turn they pitch up they can only do the boost slashing attack.

 

Trouble with Daemon Codex is there is a huge gulf of disparity between the stuff that worth taking and the dross. So we end up with the good stuff getting spammed.

 

Would hate to see my Tzeentch daemons getting nerfed, tbh they are the only thing keeping my Thousand Sons semi viable.

[Northstar]

7) Tyranid Tervigon spam

 

8) Ork green tide

 

A few points from a player of these armies::

 

Tyranids

 

- Big bugs hate S 8

- Range is your friend in most cases against Tyranids

- gants will tend to blob around tervs for buffs, and gants really don't like templates of any kind

- Crushergon lists(optimal build) are both expensive and unweildy, kill even a couple of the big bugs and the nid player will have a hard time swarming you.

- Totally incapable of being viable against flyers, I don't have the dex yet, but the average armor on flyers seems to be 12, if that is the case, than gants cannot even glance, let alone pen. the only hope this build has is to get a few Obfuscate mechanicums for the glances, and even then, that is a far cry from good.

 

Orks

 

- fear is the mind killer, you get worried about the amount of attacks they put out(rightly feared mind you), the ork player wins, every time.

- green tide is very slow, and limits availability on capability taking down certain units, again, flyers are your friend.

- shooting will not take out an entire mob, but it will bring down a good number of boyz, key here, kill enough of them to be able to tie in close combat.

-if you let them charge, you're doing it wrong.

[Minsc]

Ork Green tide isn't that scary anymore. It's slower, unwieldy, less cover to hide behind, and can fail charges, especially if you overwatch and stand in cover.

We got plenty of regular midrange-shooting to thin up the boyblobs, and they still can't really take a charge from Berzerkers, or practically anything with MoK.

You will most likely trade your champion for their Nob, but that's a usually a good swap for us.

[Loher]

Oh soz guys my bad, demons allies are ok, I hate IG (as 2 of my usual opponents play the aforemntioned IG list).

[Loher]

As for the "against nids/sapce wolves" argument, I usually play a couple of Heldrake, which perform incredibly well aganist those armies.

[allwaysoffside]

Was reading a Battle report, can’t remember the author or the opposition army, but they REALLY rated noise marines against a horde. Which makes sense. 2 shots if moving, 3 if stood still. All at 24 inches. Fearless is also a pain in the arse for horde armies. I used to use Nids (in 4th ed). If you crush a squad in CC and they don’t run away it’s painful. Especially if everything else has to move around the combat. So for 20pts each the Noise marines look sound.

I’ve not seen an Ork codex since the 4th ed either, but Orks have historically struggled against armour. Especially at range. Also TEQ was an issue until burnna boys and choppas.

Are they still poor on this front? If they are oblits, termies, and a dakka pred is only 85pts.

If I was writing list for anti horde would start with 26 noise marines, 3 daka preds and 4 obilts with MoN for under 1100.

Sit the NM up front, and the Obilts and preds behind. Maybe even a hell brute with autocannons so if they do break the line, you have a unit ready to step in and stop the flow.

[Lepaca]

2 shots if moving, 3 if stood still. All at 24 inches.

 

Nope. When they move it is 2 shots at 12".

That is the whole problem with Noise Marines. :P

[the jeske]

All at 24 inches.

not if you moved. that is why they suck against horde . If you somehow get within 12" of a horde army and even shot up a single unit , you will get shot/charged on the next turn.

 

 

Green tide does exist , only it is a counter/shoty army right now . Orcs aside for some very specific units[biker nobz] dont charge in 6th ed.

 

 

unless the scenario or terrain helps or the player using the necron army is bad with his army or if dice roll very far from avarge , it is border line impossible for a chaos list to beat necron scythwing without tailoring [and tailoring against them makes us weak against armies like SW or GK , which are also offten played].

 

Sw is a mirror match only with SW using a better units . again technicly we could take 3 drakes and hope they go slogger , have no IG ally and castle up so we can torrent them down , but normaly it doesnt happen . SW drop pod lists are specialy strong against chaos with drakes , because they end up so close to our units that offten it is impossible to use the flamers even with a full turn .

[Dallas Drake]

So guys, i t is like 20 days i am trying to figure out how to beat some of the most popular lists that show around in mo local tournament scene, they are:

 

1) Imperial guard with 3/4 Valkyrie/Vendetta and a couple of huge toy soldiers blob

 

2) Dark Eldar's Venoms spam with a couple of Razorwing and Satanix (joke intended :))+huge unit of beastmasters

 

3) Tzeentch's demons army made of 3x9 Screamers units, 2x9 Flamers unit and any other unit to its owner taste to fill the points gap

 

4) Grey knights

 

5) Necrons Scythes spam

 

I must admit that the most fearful list is the Tzeentch one, those Screamers are really broken, while the GKs seems more arginable. I am gonna say that I would like to take Slaanesh back to its glory against those, though I have enough models to play with any of the major god unit/mark. I chose Slaneesh because the ability to strike at I5 and FnP seems like a really boost against those armies, but feel free to give me any advice you can.

 

Loher

 

1) Big blobs of Cultists, Cheap CSMs, Havocs, Bikes. Make those Valks a waste of points by sheer masses of bodies. I've got a pal who runs dual Valks & when they've got no real targets (say except a few troops in 5+) then I feel they're nothing scary. Depends if they have Vets inside though. Heldrakes are an option but I think I'd go with Havos for anti-air, 2 missiles with Frakks & 2 autocannons.

 

2) Unsure, my main DE player joined the army so lacking games against these.

 

3) Daemons hate massed small arms. Spam bolters, autocannons, anything with decent ROF. T4 & 5+ won't last.

 

4) Meh. Go play someone else. I've only played these once in 6th & lost. There are ways to deal with them though, Chimeras means Havocs IMO. When I did play them I found them lethal up close (I was using BA not Chaos) so I'd suggest keeping them at arms length, seemed a very short ranged army to me.

 

5) Never played Necrons, ever ;)

 

Nids. Big bugs hate high strength low AP. Krak Missile Launchers own them. Otherwise I find them manageable. Sit in cover & just shoot really. Doom is a pain but he usually eats melta & goes away in time. Play against dual Tervigon dual Trygon with Doom, Prime & spammed Hive Guard & usually manage a win, just by Nids being pretty crap in 6th.

 

Marines. Heldrakes & Havocs can be deadly in tandem. I also like having Hatred.

[Spear of Achilles]

My screamers die to massed boltgun fire, they are only T4 with a 5++.

 

Screamers are T5 with the update, aren't they?

[Rik Riorik]

My screamers die to massed boltgun fire, they are only T4 with a 5++.

 

Screamers are T5 with the update, aren't they?

 

Nope still only T4. But they are however at two wounds now as opposed to one before the update.

[Shuggnuggath]

Says toughness 4 on their profile in the update. I think the bonus for being a jetbike is already included. Just like all other bike unit profiles.

 

Tbh my Lord of Change dies to massed bolter fire.

[allwaysoffside]

Well, that’s what you get for only half reading the rules.

 

Still the point still stands, NM are 7pts more then a CSM but get 3 S4AP5 24” shots when still compared to 1 and are fear less. Which gives you much more small arms fire for only slightly more. They are also I5 so should be handy if charged.

You’d need other units to grab objectives as to get the best out of the NM you’d want then to be stood still. But as long as you considered this, it’s not a factor that will undermine you whole army.

Depending on the scenery, you could also do a staggered advance letting on unit cover the other always ganging up on the closest enemy unit in order to destroy it, force a Ld test or reduce it to the point where it’s not a real threat in assault. Meaning next turn you still have the same amount of guns available.

It’s slow, but assuming you took 20 NM it’s still possible to get 50 sonic blaster shots into a unit.

It’s also worth noting that if you’re fighting a horde army, and you’re taking noise marines, you’d take a MoS sorcerer. I’d go level 3, so you could make sure you get symphony of pain AND hysterical frenzy which are just nasty for one warp charge point each.

Question? Can you use both of these powers in one turn? Never really used physic powers before so unsure on their functionality. But the thought of casting SoP, then piling in a load of sonic weapons, before casting HF on an assault squad getting +1A or S whist the defending squad is down on WS is sickening.

BTW why would a Slaanesh blessing power have +1 I? Is I5 not enough? It would have been better to go +1WS, +1T or FnP. Or would that be over kill?

[Loher]

Yeah, agree rofl, +1I as a Slaanesh power is kinda redundant. Do you reckon NM are better than marked CM? I find a squad composed by 10 marines, 2xplasma gun, champion with 2xLC, VotLW, MoS and Icon of Excess, one of the best setting for any power armor squad, loyalist or heretic, though it comes for a grand total of 260 points.

Do you think the rhino rush tactics is still viable with this kind of squad guys?

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

I too am very much interested in an answer to that question and would like to add

 

6) Space Wolves Mech/Horde

 

7) Tyranid Tervigon spam

 

8) Ork green tide

 

 

Haha,

 

Strange coincidence but they're three of the armies I went up against this weekend :D (1500 pts)

 

For the Nids, Helldrakes and and Black Prince are your friends. I run two Baleflamer Drakes and a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch with Wings, Power Armour, Black Mace and Gift of mutation.

 

Those three models pretty much won the battle for me. 2 Helldrake Vector strikes is really good against Tyranid Monstrous creatures, they took out a Flyrant in one pass and killed a weakend Tervigon (whilst roasting plenty of Gants/Hive Guard) - Nids really aren't cut out for countering AV12 5++ flyers.

 

The Daemon Prince accounted for another two Monstrous Creatures, without taking a wound - the Black Mace makes him perfect for hunting Tyranid monstrous creatures, of all shapes and sizes. My opponent conceeded after losing 4 of his monstrous creatures (my prince was still alive with one wound in charge range of his last Tervi, and the vast majority of my army was still intact).

 

Against Wolves my Predators shot down his Quad-gun, which left an opening for the Helldrakes to come in and roast all of his long fang squads, a grey hunter squad and put some wounds on the Thunder Wolves. Then it was just a case of mopping up what was left (the Prince took out his Wolf Lord before finally dying to the last 2 Thunder Wolves - whom promptly died to rapid firing Chaos Marines).

 

The Ork tide was the hardest, my Auto-Las preds were slightly wasted (killing 3 orks a turn is no condolence!) - though again they killed a quadgun which allowed the Prince and Drakes some free room. The prince took out some lootas before being dragged down by boyz, but the Helldrakes once again shone through - they must have roasted 30+ orks between them, vector struck a Dakkajet out of the sky and burnt a unit of lootas.

 

I ended up winning by one victory point (very close game) but without the Drakes I'd simply have been washed away in a tide of boyz. I had to group my marine squads together and throw them at one unit of Orks, before being countercharged and taken out eventually - as someone else said though, combined charge them before they charge you. You'll die eventually, but you'll at least do some damage/last longer.

 

Really, having used Dual Drakes in the last 6 games, they've been the clear contributing factor in my victories. So many people underestimate the power of Torrent+S6 AP3 flamer. Also, despite being fired at by several things, my Drakes survived each game on 3 HP, 5++ and It Will not die is really strong for a flyer.

 

So many people have gone ''Abandon all transports!'' that Baleflamers are even more effective.

 

I can't really comment above 1500, as I haven't played any games of a higher points level with this dex yet, but 1500 Double Dragon seems pretty good to me.

[Loher]

Agreed, I never leave without my 2 Heldrakes, they are really understimated. Sometimes i feel like reaper autocannon Helbrute is understimated too, will try to squeeze a couple into my 1750 list anytime soon.

[Roma]

The weakness of most of those lists is fliers and large blasts, so i suggest taking allied imperial guard, with melta vets in a vendetta.

 

The most dangerous lists are likely to include a large number of fliers (as many as 4 in a solid necron list). YOu need to win the war in the sky, so i would take a helldrake in addition to the vendetta. Together, these should keep the enemy fliers occupied.

Apart from that your on your own.

 

Necrons: most intimidating list is like to 5 man immortal squads in night scythes (about 4 in a good list). Then a very tough unit like a kitted-out destroyer lord in a 5-man squad of wraiths (t4, w2, 3+ invulnerable. Lord t6, 2+ armor save. All are jump infantry).

 

This unit can easily destroy any vehicle, and is very tough, and fast. The rest of his army will probably be overlord on a chariot (forgot the name), and transport-poppers (most probably 11,11,10 armed with twin-linkedtesla destructor and quantum shielding).

 

Winning the air battle against these will be impossible (minimum 3 fliers and 3 twin-linked tesla destructor platforms). So your best bet is to kill the units on the table, winning the game if the fliers are in reserve.

 

So you need ways to destroy aforementioned 5 wraith destroyer lord combo. A leman russ executioner would be a good start.

 

Tyranids: Difficulty dealing with fliers. Take vendetta and helldrake and you will be fine. Again, leman russ helps.

 

Orks: Same as tyranids, but have a unit of 14 point models, each with D3 autocannon shots. Kill this unit, and he will have no ways to deal with fliers.

 

Wolves: Well balanced army. However have no real units to deal with fliers. Expect an allied vendetta. Here overpower him in the sky.

 

Chaos daemons: Your air units are key here. Helldrake will eat them for breakfast. because of this, you need to kill his (almost guaranteed) greater daemons. Vendetta, chaos squads, executioner. A good number of chaos marine squads in rhinos will help, as daemons are generally weak to small arms.

 

Dark eldar venom spam is weak to small arms this edition. Again, your marines will help.

 

Imperial guard: Expect a guaranteed 3 vendettas and blob squads. Anti tank, fliers, FLAKK MISSILE HAVOCS, and other anti vehicle firepower is your friend. Helldrake helps with blob squads.

[Brother Nihm]

7) Tyranid Tervigon spam

 

Tyranids: Difficulty dealing with fliers. Take vendetta and helldrake and you will be fine. Again, leman russ helps.

I find that a Swarmstar list with dual Trygs will laugh at Vendetta/Drake or even two Balefire Drakes and just slaughter what you have on the ground while the Tervi's capture any objectives that may be on the board.

 

Alternative suggestions for the 1500 point range are welcome.