Kol Saresk Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Okay fun's over. Now, I've noticed that everyone seems to be spamming powerfists. However, all of our Champions only have 1 Wound. Now I'm not sure how the other armies "champions" equate but they're really close I'm willing to bet. Now knowing that, and the fact that the powerfists strike at Initiative 1, are power fists really that viable? I mean, I get wanting to just kill on the first strike, but the problem is that it's not the first strike. The power fist will always hit last. So is it really worth it since Chaos Champions have to challenge unit leaders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 no. claws (axes for PM champs) + meltabonbons for everyone imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Who's spamming fists? I think the only ones that are spamming fists are a few people that are still playing 5th. They're pretty awful on 3+ champs now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 no. claws (axes for PM champs) + meltabonbons for everyone imo. Pretty much this. Swords & claws for >I4 and axes or fists for <I4. Meltabombs are the new safety net now. I'm back and forth on mauls. I see them as primarily tank busters but they would be great to hunt light infantry like orks or deny FnP for T3 units like dark eldar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphariusomegon20 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 no. claws (axes for PM champs) + meltabonbons for everyone imo. Pretty much this. Swords & claws for >I4 and axes or fists for <I4. Meltabombs are the new safety net now. I'm back and forth on mauls. I see them as primarily tank busters but they would be great to hunt light infantry like orks or deny FnP for T3 units like dark eldar. Now I see Power Mauls as a good trade off for a Champ, and am sticking them on all of mine. Going at your initiative, even with the AP of 4 seems like a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 no. claws (axes for PM champs) + meltabonbons for everyone imo. Pretty much this. Swords & claws for >I4 and axes or fists for <I4. Meltabombs are the new safety net now. I'm back and forth on mauls. I see them as primarily tank busters but they would be great to hunt light infantry like orks or deny FnP for T3 units like dark eldar. Now I see Power Mauls as a good trade off for a Champ, and am sticking them on all of mine. Going at your initiative, even with the AP of 4 seems like a good choice. Yep, I run them fairly standard as well. They handle all things decently and have no holes, I can usually inflict enough wounds on an enemy champion to force him to fail a save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Mauls are a very solid all-rounder, I plan on running several champions with them myself. They're the weakest of the PW options against Meq, but considerably better than swords against literally everything else, slightly better even than claws against Teq, and devastating against anything with a save of 4+ or worse. Maul + meltabomb is probably going to be my default champion loadout for anything other than plaguemarines, from now on. e; of course, now I have to buy and magnetize mauls for all my champions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 All things being equal I'd rate mauls as the go to choice but they're not equal. The preponderance of MEQs being played and the forced challenges make me feel like We are forced to gear up to kill marine sergeants which pushes swords to the front. That said, I'd still take them on melta squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 The preponderance of MEQs being played and the forced challenges make me feel like We are forced to gear up to kill marine sergeants which pushes swords to the front. This. Only worth taking a PF or TH on low I or 2+ Sv models or if they're hidden and not on a character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I take a Lightning Claw on my Slaanesh champs. And a meltabomb. It's pretty much just better than a power sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 For me - Power sword & meltabombs on CSM Champs. Most folk (especially those than had I5 on charge but lost it, like BAs etc) are going with naked Champs/Sergeants so the PS gives him the edge. Meltabombs just incase you meet a walker/tank/dread that needs sorting. Not too expensive & lets him handle any situation, heck at least with AP3 he sometimes wins a challenge! If he steps up & gets his head cut off by Wolf-faceblood-Ubermarine then oh well, 20 points is not a game changer amount of wargear. Dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well part of this stemmed from the fact that I have seen some lists with quite a large number of PFs and when asking for suggestions, others were suggesting to keep the fists. Like on a biker squad. To me, a power lance would make better since on a biker champ because he can charge at +1 S and AP 3 with Strength and AP 4 regular. That's not too bad right? On normal units, the Maul makes since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Well, the main thing I think is the cost ironically relative to a power axe not a sword. Swordichamps do strike first but they fail to kill even a single Meq more than half the time if they don't charge and they are trash against Teq or MCs. Fists are much better against both of those so they would have a place, but then so are axes and those are significantly cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yeah, it's iffy. For most champs, a sword has <50% odds of killing an enemy champ, while a fist is far more likely to do so. So if you're going up against enemy champs, you can take the fist. You might get ganked before you swing, but the odds aren't exactly worse for you than they are with a sword unless the enemy is charging you. ICs will splat you of course, but that's the case regardless. Still, it's nerve wracking to rely on your opponent's failure, even if the odds don't favor their success, before even having the chance to swing, even if your odds are much more favorable once you do. I really wish we could give our champions the 5++ aura. I'd feel a lot more comfortable that way. You can get the 6++ from tzeentch, but that's more "hope and prayer" than actual defense. If they hadn't nerfed the already weak MoT on CSMs and other units without existing inv. saves, I might be seriously considering Tzeentch-marked chaos marines with fistichamps. Slaanesh and Khorne marked marines should stick to the Sword, imo, or mace if they face a preponderance of non-meqs. But undivided, nurgle, and tzeentch marines can reasonably consider fists & axes, even on I4 units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 I think VotLW tilts in favor of the sword because we are more likely to get that kill in. On the other hand , Nurgle units or bikers have enough increased durability that they can favor the axe or fist because they will likely survive to swing them. As far as fist vs axe, axe is better at killing marines than fist thanks to that extra swing. It's a bonus that its also cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Yep. Unfortunately from an efficiency point of view there is really no reason to take a fist anymore, and psychologically I know what you mean about feeling helpless as your opponent rolls to see if he kills you or not. Also, if you take ex ante expected value of kills with an axe or fist it would be lower than sword because of the chance of dying (don't feel like doing the computation but it's fairly intuitive) though the added advantage of AP2 makes axes at least somewhat attractive for the increased potential threat level to things that don't suck in melee anyway like tac sergeants or, well, aspiring champions ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilicate Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 And for better results than the sword, you have the single LC. Statistically the same in every circumstance except when charging, where it's slightly better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 First thing I did in the new edition was to snip off the powerfists on my champs and replace them with powerswords, and then I put meltabombs on all of them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Amarel Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 First thing I did in the new edition was to snip off the powerfists on my champs and replace them with powerswords, and then I put meltabombs on all of them... I just count the claw-like PF as an LC and let my opponent know before hand ;). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Oddly enough, I see more potential with fists on HQ units assuming they either have T5+ or 3++. The increased base A value coupled with hitting on 3's3's normally as well as the threat of instant killing T4 multi wound model makes it more viable if you choose not to run with khorne axe or black mace. As for sword vs claw, I call it a draw. They are so close to one another against a wide variety of targets that to me, it comes down to modeling (or stupid rule limitations like noise champion ). I'm actually really happy about the power weapon changes. Now we get to have a discussion instead of being told to always take the fist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 And for better results than the sword, you have the single LC. Statistically the same in every circumstance except when charging, where it's slightly better. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 But swords do look cool and are much easier to get unless you get the raptor box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I would rather run boon+power sword then fist , but that is just me. LC are ok but I sometimes end up with not enough points to buy them . offten I end up with naked champs in biker units , I dont buy power weapons for pm campers [if I happen to play a nurgle lord/tyfus] . Fist playing comes from people using their old armies . not all , can just remodel/refit 4-5 champions . add the fact that they offten have to buy bikes/aegis , havocks and cash actualy starts being a problem. So people play with slightly upgrades 5th armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allwaysoffside Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 PS and L/C are a trade off and are equally good. Maybe one has the slight advantage. But one just looks a whole lot better. I mean if I was better at conversions I’d have Freddie Kruger in terminator armour leading my army! I can see poeples thoughts on fists. Fo 1pts its a bit much to stand ther and hope to win the challenge. But I still like them, although only on tougher units like FnP bikes or MoN bikes. As for mauls I’m really on the fence. I think for anything other then MEQ they are brilliant. But T4 3+ save is there Achilles heel. No ID and a good save. Anything else the extra strength is awesome and the poor AP is not an issue. So it might be worth knowing you are fighting before making a stance. If I had to chose PS every time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I've actually been tempted to run my possessed models as champions, counting their warped mutations and daemonic claws as gift of mutation and fisticlaws. But that makes for some hideously expensive champions. As such I don't think it's a good way to go, but sometimes style wins out over substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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