Ahriman

[Hellrender]

So, how is Ahriman in his new incarnation? Did you test him yet? if so, how did he perform? did he kill stuff with fire? :D

[Kastor Krieg]

I found that he needs protection, so you need to put him in a large squad of MEQ, for bodyguard, for example unmarked CSMs. His ability to use witchfire three times a round does not come into play often, as you most often have him as Warlord and really do not want to put THAT within 24" of an enemy. He's good because of a) making kSons score, ^_^ 1 Tzeentch spell (either get Boon of Mutation or at least the Primaris 24" Firestorm, leave Doombolt for Sorcerers) + 3x Telepathy (you want Dominate, Invisibility, Puppet Master - else, default for the Shriek, if you can't keep the Hallucinations), c) he makes at least one, up to three, infantry units infiltrate / outflank. Pretty neat, don't have to worry about other, pretty meh, warlord traits.

 

On the other hand, last game he and his 8 kSon squad (with an AS attached) got charged by 5 BA hammernators on Rage. Squad got wiped, Sorc died LoSing Ahriman. Ahriman kills a termie and then in his turn proceeds to cast Invisibility (ha, termie! you attack me on WS1!) and then Hallucinations, just for the heck of it. The termies fail the Deny the Witch roll, while I roll 6 on the spell table. They attack each other, on full WS, hammering each other to death. Ahriman walks away, shrouded from enemy fire and chuckling to himself <_<

[Excessus]

Go with biomancy on Ahriman, grab a lvl 3 psyker to lay down the telepathy goodies on the troops with. Ahriman would be quite survivable with S/T7, FnP and 2+ cover save... ;)

[Smirnov]

A question bothers me - why Telepathy? I see it quite often as a choice for discipline, Ahriman or not. What's s great about it? I always thought it loses to Divination and Biomancy, and as Divination is forbidden to greatest seer of human race, it leaves just Biomancy. Where am I wrong?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Because Telepathy is just awesome and funny, and there is noting quite like making your enemies shoot each other or attack each other because they beleive each other have sided with the giant invisible rabbit of DOOOMMM!!! to kill them when they turn there back.

[Smirnov]

Isn't it a bit unreliable?

[*Furyou Miko]

On the contrary to Krieg's post, the two games I've fielded Ahriman in he did very well up close and personal. I think the only thing missing from his profile is a Sigil of Corruption to give him that 3++ Invulnerable save that all our characters lack - as it is, if I'm doubling him up with a Sorcerer (or 'smith in the second game), I tend to drop them together as a pseudo-deathstar in a 1kSon squad and infiltrate it. The second Sorcerer (Usually with a force glaive, countst-as-axe) takes the nasty hits first on his 3++ and handles the Challenges. Warpsmiths with daemon weapons are FUN in challenges. :P

 

I ran Ahriman + a unit of 7 1ksons (Aspiring Sorcerer had a sword), the Sorcerer has Doombolt and Ahriman had Firestorm, Doombolt, Boon and I think Haemorrhage. On their own, they managed to rampage up an entire Blood Angel line - admittedly mostly Tac squads, but two Dreadnoughts and a CQC Jetbike Librarian as well - starting from Infiltrated and just letting Ahri and the A.S. go to town with their powers.

 

Incidentally, Doombolt is just funny against firing lines from the side. -_-

[Smirnov]

On the contrary to Krieg's post, the two games I've fielded Ahriman in he did very well up close and personal. I think the only thing missing from his profile is a Sigil of Corruption to give him that 3++ Invulnerable save that all our characters lack - as it is, if I'm doubling him up with a Sorcerer (or 'smith in the second game), I tend to drop them together as a pseudo-deathstar in a 1kSon squad and infiltrate it. The second Sorcerer (Usually with a force glaive, countst-as-axe) takes the nasty hits first on his 3++ and handles the Challenges. Warpsmiths with daemon weapons are FUN in challenges. :whistling:

Is this a valid tactic? Will the second character get Infiltrate from Ahriman as the squad does?

[Hlakir]

He will not... so you have to hope for at least a 2 on the D3.

 

I haven't had the chance to test it yet, but I'm gonna run him with 10 Tzeentch Terminators (with fists and stuff of course). It's expensive, but hard (even more so if I get Invisibility).

[Kastor Krieg]

If you deploy Ahriman + Sorc + kSons (for example) as a single infantry unit - OF COURSE you can infiltrate them all reliably as a single unit. They are a SINGLE unit after all, not three separate ones.

[Smirnov]

BRB says independent characters don't get infiltrate from squad. So Ahriman with infiltrate + squad would work, but Ahriman +squad + another independent character would not

[JamesI]

I have used Ahriman several times, and he's done great for me. I've tried a mix of powers, but tend to prefer Biomancy with maybe 1 Telepathy thrown in.

[Kastor Krieg]

BRB says independent characters don't get infiltrate from squad. So Ahriman with infiltrate + squad would work, but Ahriman +squad + another independent character would not

Just to get it right - because the IC (Ahriman) can give Infiltrate to the squad, right?

 

I have used Ahriman several times, and he's done great for me. I've tried a mix of powers, but tend to prefer Biomancy with maybe 1 Telepathy thrown in.

I was taught a good way of choosing a Discipline / set of Disciplines - how many out of how many powers are cool?

 

Biomancy

Primaris - Smite

Tinyyy range, 4 AP2 dice, with S4. Not so good, not extremely awful (only because of AP2). But since you can't Overwatch with Powers... Meh.

1 - Iron Arm

Definitely awesome, with the oh-so-rare Eternal Warrior. But then again, only on the Psyker, so rather meh, unless facing a lot of S10 shooty.

2 - Enfeeble

Useful, but not always. Doesn't do much to high-T units, really. More and more units I see ignore difficult terrain, too.

3 - Endurance

FnP is always cool and Relentless could be helpful for my kSons. ITWND is not useful unless you cast this on something like a deamon or a W3/W4 character.

4 - Life Leech

Sucks, IMO. Puny range, defeats the purpose. Fail to wound with it and you're toast, getting rushed most likely and losing more Wounds.

5 - Warp Speed

At least +1A / +1I, Fleet. Again, meh, unless with Iron Arm and so on. But then again, your Psyker has 2W only and even with ML3 you want to save one of those Warp Charges for Instant Death on Force Weapon.

6 - Haemorrhage

Puny range, at least focussed, but still. It's a meh version of the Black Mace, really.

 

I got to give Biomancy this - no Warp Charge 2 powers. Kinda cool.

 

Telepathy

1 - Dominate

Forcing your enemy to roll Ld each PHASE unless in combat, otherwise DERP big time - pretty awesome in my book.

2 - Mental Fortitude

Cheapest Fearless ever, with 24" range, too. Best to be used on those T5 Nurgle CSMs who do not need to GtG and will just stand on the score and shoot, unbreakable. Also good for a large tarpitting unit of Cultists, for example.

3 - Puppet Master

Properly used, one of the nastiest things ever. Suffice to say, I recently used it on Pedro Kantor, with devastating effect. Yes, you are thinking correctly - "OMG, where did I send that S10, AP1, Large Blast Orbital Bombardment?! SORRY GUYYYS!!!" :D

4 - Terrify

Best for pushing enemy off a scoring spot. Terrify them and get into combat. Win it, by points, have them run, chase them down when they break. Terrific and terrifying indeed.

5 - Invisibility

One of the most underrated powers ever. No Counter-Attack even on Khorne / Black Rage BA / anything else for that matter. They always hit you on 5+. You always hit them on 3+. And 2+ cover saves on most of your way to the combat. What's not to like? Well, 2WP, yes. Still, awesome.

6 - Hallucinations

Surprisingly effective, especially on a unit that got Terrified earlier. Still one of the worse option in here, along with Mental Fortitude, because of the 2 Warp Point cost.

Primaris - Psychic Shriek

Again, 12" range, bad. But the effect it has! No Armour, no Cover. Yes, statistically you do exactly NOTHING to a MEQ unit, but against low-Ld hordes it's pretty awesomesauce.

[Minsc]

I liked Biomancy and used it on all my Sorcerers...up till just recently when I realized that Biomancy is actually rather "meh" (3/7 powers are "good", 4/7 powers are "bad".)

 

I'm sticking with Telepathy for now, where no power is really bad (unlike Haemorraghe/Smite in Biomancy). Mental Fortitude and Terrify are very situational powers, but can be a gamechanger if used at the right time.

[*Furyou Miko]

3 - Endurance

FnP is always cool and Relentless could be helpful for my kSons. ITWND is not useful unless you cast this on something like a deamon or a W3/W4 character.

 

Just like to point out - Thousand Sons are already Relentless because of Slow and Purposeful.

[Kastor Krieg]

3 - Endurance

FnP is always cool and Relentless could be helpful for my kSons. ITWND is not useful unless you cast this on something like a deamon or a W3/W4 character.

 

Just like to point out - Thousand Sons are already Relentless because of Slow and Purposeful.

 

No, they do not, Miko. They have the same +effect+ as Relentless, but SnP is not like other rules that give you another rule too (say Infiltrate / Outflank). If I cast Relentless on the kSons, it's a better rule, kinda SnP-upgrade because they exclude each other (permissive ruleset, Relentless does not forbid, ergo allows, doing some things that SnP does not allow). So, I'd assume that with Relentless instead of SnP, I'd be able to shoot Overwatch and run, which I can't do with SnP kSons. FnP Relentless kSons with 4++ and AP would be AWESOME. ITWND Ahriman / Lord / Sorc with them? Nice boost.

[*Furyou Miko]

Except it don't work like that.

 

Gaining Relentless doesn't mean you suddenly lose Slow and Purposeful unless it expressly states that it replaces that rule. You just end up Slow and Purposeful and Relentless.

[Kastor Krieg]

But those rules are mutually exclusive, it does not make any sense to be BOTH.

[*Furyou Miko]

How are they mutually exclusive?

 

Slow and Purposeful basically states: You have these drawbacks, and you have these benefits.

 

Relentless says: You have these benefits, with the identical wording to Slow and Purposeful.

 

It does not say anywhere that you cannot have both. Relentless simply grants no benefit to models that are Slow and Purposeful, because they already have the benefits.

 

Quote me a page reference that says that the same model cannot have those two rules, or that says that a model with two rules that have similar effects only uses the better of the two.

[Kastor Krieg]

Ah, I thought about the intro to Special Rules and the wording on p.32, but it says "Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple rules are cumulative." - technically you could argue that SnP gives you Relentless and then some, so you can't have both, but practically I guess it's the "same named rule" this entry talks about, so "can't have Relentless itself twice" would be more accurate, in this example, but otherwise USRs are cumulative. Per RAW I guess you're right then, Miko.

 

The "permissive ruleset" thing I was talking about though is the rules design point of view, so more RAI? If Relentless allows you to Run and Overwatch, but SnP does not, they would be exclusive, you could not have a cumulative effect of those, because the common ground is basically the effect of Relentless. In a "restrictive ruleset", you'd sum it up to "all restrictions included", so [ Relentless ] + [ Relentless + no Run + no Overwatch] = sum of those parts is "full wording of SnP", "all restrictions included", in opposition to previous example with "all permissions included". Therefore, you could argue that you get the "better" one of the two similar rules.

[*Furyou Miko]

No, you've got it backwards. In a cumulative ruleset, every additional rule adds on to the previous one.

 

For example, if you have Relentless, then gain Slow and Purposeful, you gain the penalties of Slow and Purposeful in addition to the bonuses from Relentless, but since you already have the bonuses from Relentless, the bonuses from Slow and Purposeful don't stack on top of them.

 

"Permissive Ruleset" means "You can only do it if the rules say you can". Slow and Purposeful specifically says you can't do things, therefore those actions are not Permitted under the Permissive Ruleset.

 

It's clearly intended that Thousand Sons are not supposed to be able to Overwatch, ever, because that would mean that they were actually effective against Space Marines charging them.

 

Or, to put it another way: If the Relentless rule specifically stated that "The model may run, sweeping advance, and overwatch" then there would be a conflict, but it doesn't. THe Complex Rule (SnP/Relentless) overrides the Basic Rule (You can run/etc).

[Kastor Krieg]

OK, I get it now. Thanks!

 

And yeah, I do not get the GW kSon hate-on either :tu:

[Smirnov]

BRB says independent characters don't get infiltrate from squad. So Ahriman with infiltrate + squad would work, but Ahriman +squad + another independent character would not

Just to get it right - because the IC (Ahriman) can give Infiltrate to the squad, right?

Yes, that's right. Special rules are shared between characters and units with exception of some rules that can't be given to the character by the unit (like infiltrate), but it's ok the other way.

 

I have used Ahriman several times, and he's done great for me. I've tried a mix of powers, but tend to prefer Biomancy with maybe 1 Telepathy thrown in.

 

Telepathy

1 - Dominate

Forcing your enemy to roll Ld each PHASE unless in combat, otherwise DERP big time - pretty awesome in my book.

2 - Mental Fortitude

Cheapest Fearless ever, with 24" range, too. Best to be used on those T5 Nurgle CSMs who do not need to GtG and will just stand on the score and shoot, unbreakable. Also good for a large tarpitting unit of Cultists, for example.

3 - Puppet Master

Properly used, one of the nastiest things ever. Suffice to say, I recently used it on Pedro Kantor, with devastating effect. Yes, you are thinking correctly - "OMG, where did I send that S10, AP1, Large Blast Orbital Bombardment?! SORRY GUYYYS!!!" :tu:

4 - Terrify

Best for pushing enemy off a scoring spot. Terrify them and get into combat. Win it, by points, have them run, chase them down when they break. Terrific and terrifying indeed.

5 - Invisibility

One of the most underrated powers ever. No Counter-Attack even on Khorne / Black Rage BA / anything else for that matter. They always hit you on 5+. You always hit them on 3+. And 2+ cover saves on most of your way to the combat. What's not to like? Well, 2WP, yes. Still, awesome.

6 - Hallucinations

Surprisingly effective, especially on a unit that got Terrified earlier. Still one of the worse option in here, along with Mental Fortitude, because of the 2 Warp Point cost.

Primaris - Psychic Shriek

Again, 12" range, bad. But the effect it has! No Armour, no Cover. Yes, statistically you do exactly NOTHING to a MEQ unit, but against low-Ld hordes it's pretty awesomesauce.

That's what bothers me about Telepathy - all offensive power need a second roll and some are easily negated by Fearless. Instead of one roll for Biomance (activation) you need to make two rolls for Telepathy (activetion, resist roll for the target)

[Xenith]

Used Ahriman yesterday, pure TZ, vs mixed daemons.

 

Ahriman got Firestorm, molten beam, endurance, haemmorage.

 

Beam took a wound of a thirster, then he got in combat.

 

Endurance is awesome on a unit of TS and Ahriman 4++ then FNP makes for a hell of a tar pit, which unfortunately saw Ahriman get pounded on in combat by a juggernaut champion. Luckily "It will not die" kept him in the game.

[vonny]

Yes, that's right. Special rules are shared between characters and units with exception of some rules that can't be given to the character by the unit (like infiltrate), but it's ok the other way.

 

I don't see it that way...

however!

page 39 of the brb says "unless specified by the rule itself, the units special rules are not conferred to the independant character and the character's special rules are not conferred onto the unit".

 

infiltrate, a page earlier says "An independant character without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment."

 

Now you could say, if you give infiltrate the the character, and join him to the unit, it would work, because the infiltrate states "units that contain at least one model with this special rule..."

This would mean he would count as part of the unit (which he does), and that he confers the rule so that the unit may deploy as infiltrators.

 

Still somehow sounds iffy to me. But giving infiltrate to ahriman, attaching him to a squad, and embarking them on their dedicated rhino and infiltrate the whole group... it works. drive 6", disembark 6", fire away.

Hmm, maybe I should just convince myself this doesn't sound iffy and is just RAW...