BA vs Guard - help!

[yakkum2006]

Hi all,

 

have had my first encounter against guard tonight (6th or ever) and to say their weight of fire was surprising would be an understatement. Will be playing them again next week (1500 pts) and was hoping for some advice.

 

the basics i have to choose from are as follows:

 

Dante

Astorath

Corbulo

 

Sang guard (Chapter banner, Fist, infernus pistol)

 

10X assault (hammer, infernus pistol and hand flamer)

 

10X tactical (Fist and melta)

Rhino

 

5X DC (Fist, 2X Power weapons)

 

DC dread with magna grapple and blood talons

 

have always been happy with what to choose from but tactically i am VERY nervous for next week :D

 

any tactical advice or suggestions GREATLY appreciated!

 

thanks in advance :D

[Ushtarador]

You can't outshoot them, thats for sure. You gotta be fast and you have to cripple their big guns before they shoot you to ribbons. Deepstriking ASM with dual melta is a good idea, at least 2 squads. The dc dread in a pod might work as well if you don't drop it in front of his melta-vets. A Stormraven is excellent as it can quite reliably take out 2 vehicles at once and transport stuff to the front.

The important thing to know about guard is that while you will lose a lot of stuff in the first 2 turns, they crumble very quickly once you reach him and take out key units. A single DC-marine is a serious threat to a guardsplayer, if he stands in their gunline, don't give up just because you lose half your army before hurting him.

 

P.S. Getting first turn helps A LOT as well, so practice your dicerolling ;)

[Erasmus of Baal]

I'm not really experienced in combating the Imperial Guard, but I'll say what I can and won't be ashamed if someone corrects me below.

 

The main question for dealing with IG, as far as I understand things, is: Are you dealing with tanks or massed infantry?

 

If you are dealing with massed infantry, counter-building is simple in concept: Templates. Vindicators, Frag Cannon Furioso Dreadnoughts, and potentially even the humble flamer can score a significant number of kills. The main issue with this is delivery, as if you aren't running three Vindicators (and, potentially, even if you are) you need to get into close range to deal most of your damage. This is where the details of the enemy list start to become relevant. Are they more able to take out tanks, MEQs, or cheap infantry, or is their damage well-rounded? If their damage is well-rounded, you can overload one aspect by taking as many of a particular choice as possible; for example, if the enemy does not have a particularly strong anti-armor presence, then you can mechanize your entire force to great benefit. A Stormraven is usually a good choice regardless of situation, especially with that Blood Talon Furioso Dread that you already have.

 

If, however, you are dealing with mostly tanks, you need antitank weapons such as Lascannons, Meltaguns, Power Fists, and Infernus pistols. Again, though, the key issue is delivery; if you want to talk about that more, read the above paragraph on infantry.

 

If it is the case that neither of the previous two is the case and you are dealing with a well-rounded list, then it's simply your tactical genius against theirs. Don't be afraid to try wacky and/or strange things, as your opponent may be knocked even further off-balance by the surprise than you are.

 

Regardless, remember that the Blood Angels' key advantage over nearly every other army is the ability to redeploy incredibly rapidly. If they are simply making a long line and shooting from a static position, overload part of the line and munch your way across. If they change that strategy partway through the game, redeploy hard and change your tactics faster than he can change his!

[Loketh]

As a Space Wolves player who has fought Guard on many occasions, I can tell you that speed or weight of numbers is what will win you the day. In my case, I'm able to saturate the field with so many targets that I can get a few good men into his line and tear his army to shreds even though I lose my Hunters in droves as I advance (I footslog). Since you don't have a numerical advantage (yet!), the list you have is going to rely on you deep-striking/drop-podding as many marines as you possibly can. Ideally, you would have about 20 to 30 more men on the field instead of special characters, but herohammer does have its benefits. At 1500 points, he should have space on the flank of his gunline to pack in your deep strikers, denying at least a couple of his big guns juicy targets. You can't afford to be too cautious here. Hit hard and fast, use the cover provided by his wrecks and roll down his line. In the future, it will help VASTLY to have more meat on the field, but you should be able to make it work with what you have. Best of luck, battle brother!

 

EDIT: Cut some holes in cans to proxy some quick drop pods if you want to see how you like them. Rhinos are quickly becoming a thing of the past, and Angels look cooler when they're dropping out of the sky!

[Morticon]

are those the only models you have at your disposal at the moment?

[yakkum2006]

Firstly thanks for all the advice brothers

 

thats pretty much it at the moment (at least until next payday as i may have been distracted with angron and the new cataphractii terminators :D)

 

i have some old Ultramarines that can act as (if i cant get them painted b4 the next game) which are:

 

termis X5

sternguard

tac X5

scouts X10

 

was also thinking i have grey knights that could ally:

 

termis X5

PA X5

inquisitor

dreadknight

 

I like the idea of hitting hard a flank (was originally thinking hit both flanks to try and split his fire and get through one side?)

 

the next questions really are:

speed paint (like on my WIP from a while back) the other models i have at my disposal or ally?

 

when the pay fairy comes, what is the next essential purchase do you all think?

 

what do you all think?

 

I will of course let you all know how the next game on Weds goes! ;)

[Calnus]

If you want to know what to buy when playing BA, just pick up Death Company boxes. They make damn near anything you want, and have a buttload of sweet bit options.

 

As for your list, if you want things to follow with your main force, then take them as BA to get FnP. If you are going to flank (or pod) or otherwise run them as a seperate strike force, then ally.

 

And on a side note, I always find that Blood Angels, and marines in general, do best when you concentrate on one point of the enemies defense at a time. Apply overwhelming force to a single point, then do it again, and again. If done properly, it should prevent you taking too many losses at each step, though you will likely take some as you close in.

[BrotherTim]

I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned vanguard veterans. They work exceptionally well against guard. Take 5 with 3 melta bombs for a balanced approached approach.

[Shaggy12009]

You didn't say weather your opponent is a tread head, if they're using blob squads, or a vet list. The tactics are very different from one to another. I'm going to assume they're playing the human horde. Anti vehicle tactics with your models is stay out of LoS and buy some melta guns. Anti vets is as close you're going to come to an even match against guard since you're both low in the model count department. Human horde is a bit more complicated.

 

Given what models you own, I'd play a refused flank. Stack up on one side or the other and leave the other side empty except for your tac guys. I wouldn't use deep strike here for two reasons. Firstly, if you roll great you can arrive in turn two and start killing in turn three. Assuming your game ends on turn five (which happens when you leas t want it to) by the time your guys kill anything, the game's half over! I'm not even going to go into what happens if your reserves don't come in on time. Second, by using the refused flank, your opponent will have much of his army out of range and, if you're smart, out of LoS too. This leaves only a few units to shoot your assualters as they close for a turn two charge. You then limit the damage to your force as a whole by overwhelming those few defending squads. Put the dread and Sang guard up front to tempt your opponent into shooting your heaviest armor first and further limit your damage.

 

You can even play mind games by reminding him what blood talons do or refer to your Sanguinary guard as flying terminators. Gauge your opponent and make sure bringing any unit within range to shoot at them is going to have LoS issues before you throw rocks at the bee hive. Oh, and above all, don't be a feminine hygiene product about it.

 

You're going to have an uphill battle with all that defensive fire but use the guard's greatest weakness against them. That being lack of speed and how much each squad sucks on their own. Don't let yourself get caught in a position where an entire flank can shoot at the same target as much as possible. Even those flashlights they call guns hurt when you get hit by 100 of them. (That sounds like a lot but its only 2 blob squads without heavy weapons and costing 500 pts). If you can crush an entire squad in the first assualt, don't consolidate into position for the next. Consolidate behind LoS blocking cover and protect yourself. Guard can afford to loose models but you should treat each of yours as precious.

 

Last note, since you mentioned picking up additional models, look at Baal predators. They cost about 60 points less than the squad of sanguinary guard and pack a twin linked assault cannon, and two heavy bolters. Wrap that in a av13 fast vehicle that can scout and you have a real winner. Against guard, you're going to hit with about 8 shots needing a 2+ to kill per turn! Even vets with carapace armor will loose an entire squad per turn to this bad boy. They can outflank, but I usually use them for fire support and mobile cover from turn one.

 

I know I got a little carried away there, but I hope this helps. As long as you can get over the number advantage you should do well. Be sure to post back how the game goes.

[DominicJ]

Podded sternguard with heavy flamers?

[Chaplain Admetus]

He's got bigger/better guns than you; but you're a LOT faster than he is. Make it count. Prioritise his transports, stay out of range of his guns where possible. If its an objective based mission, spread them as much as possible and try to keep them out of deployment zones so that he can't bunker on them as easily. If its Big Guns, switch target priority to his heavy support stuff. An outflanking Baal will probably ruin at least one thing's day, and sponge some shooting from another. This may in fact be one of the rare cases where I'd advocate a storm raven for its transport capacity, as you can blast on in turn 2 (hopefully). Since you don't have either of those, that's kind of a moot point; maybe add to the "to buy" list?

 

From what you have: Dante and the Sanguinary Guard would probably be useful here; DS them in, slag a tank, and then hopefully survive a turn and start punching things. Would leave the dreadnought at home unless you have a transport for it, as it's just going to get shot apart on its way across the table otherwise. Tag them with the Assault Squad (maybe reserve too), and use the tac squad as objective holders... everything else is for punching puny guardsmen.

 

Everyone says first turn is important - I'm going to be the voice of contention (I can do that, because I want to dissent :P) and say go second, as you can set up with important stuff out of range of his guns and refuse flank. Or do what I love doing to throw people off-kilter and play a refused centre, which works because nobody ever expects it and it can be an extremely effective tactic for an army as fast as ours. Tactica in a nutshell; you can quite quickly redeploy everything to one side, especially if you put all the really fast stuff on one flank with your intent to make the other flank your thrust - they deploy on the 'fast' side to counter your nasty units and you blast it over to the other. Alternatively, they weaken their centre to cope with a double flank deployment and you move everything back to the middle, the stuff on the wings is too far out to be useful, smash through the middle and leave their flanks unsupported.

[MadMek83]

Use your peed, pack as many flamers you as you can. Ig is very frail if you have ASM squad with 2x flamers and a hand flamer on sarge: move few inch apart and throw 3 flamer templates. Against IG, you only need 4+ or 3+ to wound with hand flamer or flamer. Then you can charge and pretty much kill anything you need to.

 

Your priorty: transports. Anyone who has played bit IG usually packs his command squad in a transport. Forcing his HQ footslog or his melta / plasma vets footslog will benefit you. If your DC gets melee with IG unit, that unit is most likely doomed and depending on how he has placed his units, you can use multiassault. Even 5 DC is fearsome and can chew thru more IG than you can even guess.

 

Leman Russ' are meean but if you can get behind, they pop like any Rhino or such. Also unlike Marine sponsons, Russ' sponson only turn 90 degree and not 180... Its sometimes also very beneficial to remember.

 

I'd use Sanguinary guard and Dante Combo as assassin squad: killing either enemy big gun or HQ hunters. With 2+ saves they are quite formidable unit and with Dantes deep striking rules, placing them in table is quite easy, just remember, unlike Vanguard, you cannot assault with them but you pack two melta pistols.

[DominicJ]

Everyone says first turn is important - I'm going to be the voice of contention (I can do that, because I want to dissent tongue.gif) and say go second, as you can set up with important stuff out of range of his guns and refuse flank. Or do what I love doing to throw people off-kilter and play a refused centre, which works because nobody ever expects it and it can be an extremely effective tactic for an army as fast as ours.

 

This ^

Not entirely sure "refused centre" would work, but deploying hard on one flank will put a significant number of his guns out of range.

Even just two tactical squads that make it into his lines WILL roll up a full guard army (Trust me, I watched my guard die in just that way)