Frost Axes on Wolf Guard

[DanPesci]

Would i be right in thinking that there is now no point taking a frost axe on a wolf guard, as when either in PA or TDA, its the same points as a powerfist, which strikes at the same I and gives you better strength.

 

Kinda annoying if so as even though i ahve magnetised my termies, i have way more axe, sword and claw arms complete than powerfist.

 

I would have thought that they would maybe have FAQ'd frost weapons down to the same cost as wolf claws, but couldn't see it anywhere..

 

Am i missing something here or is it actually just an oversight by GW?

[Valerian]

Would i be right in thinking that there is now no point taking a frost axe on a wolf guard, as when either in PA or TDA, its the same points as a powerfist, which strikes at the same I and gives you better strength.

 

Yes.

[SamaNagol]

Well you can get an extra attack from an additional CCW. Other than that no.

[skeletoro]

Well you can get an extra attack from an additional CCW. Other than that no.

 

Frost Axes are better than Power fists in some contexts - e.g. against t3 with a pistol in the offhand - just as likely to wound AND get an extra attack.

 

The problem is, in those same contexts, Power Axes are better (in terms of bang for buck). In addition, you get to buy more models in the power axe squad, so they're more resilient.

[Squark]

Well you can get an extra attack from an additional CCW. Other than that no.

 

But a powerfist will shut off feel no pain (from a Medic or Pain tokens), and it's instant death to any multi-wound T3 models (Most HQs for Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Guard).

[skeletoro]

Well you can get an extra attack from an additional CCW. Other than that no.

 

But a powerfist will shut off feel no pain (from a Medic or Pain tokens), and it's instant death to any multi-wound T3 models (Most HQs for Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Guard).

 

Both a Frost Axe and a power fist are ID for T3, but a power fist is ID for T4, too. Which means most space marine HQs.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

If GW had made power axes i2, that would have been a great rock-scissors between them, swords and fists.

 

Sword - Strike at initiative, bounces off sv2+

Axe - IDs t3 characters, eats sv2+

Fist - IDs t4 characters, eats sv2+, hurts vehicles more reliably.

 

Do I want the extra hittiness of the Fist versus Characters and Vehicles, at the risk of being jipped by both the Sword and the Axe?

Do I want the Axe to deal with TEq with Fists/Hammers, but risk getting jipped by a Sword? Is the reduction is strength worth the boost of initiative?

 

Basically now Axes feel like an el cheapo version of Fists, admittedly with the possible extra attack. *shrugs* It could have opened up more tactical considerations and interplay. D'oh!

 

Now as it stands, TH SS is just so much better than an Axe. Being able to thin out Hammernators at i2 would have increased the struggle :D

 

Paying the Frost tax would have been interesting. It doesn't give you ID versus t4, but does give you a boost against vehicles AND helps to keep the increasingly common t5 on the ropes.

Also, if you are going Frost Axe and are i2, do you risk getting the extra attack when in power armour? That leaves you vulnerable to Swords. If you buy a Storm Shield to protect you, well hey, you've invested even more points into an expensive model.

[skeletoro]

Now as it stands, TH SS is just so much better than an Axe. Being able to thin out Hammernators at i2 would have increased the struggle ;)

 

Point taken, but power axes are much better than power fists at the prices WG have to pay for them. At least, against infantry. At Assault terminator prices though, yeah.

 

Incidentally, power armour WG with power axes and bolt pistols give hammernators a run for their money. It depends who charges. If the WG get the charge, they'll win. Of course, that unit won't necessarily do too well vs other units (LC assault termies would shred them for example)

[Ethzor]

I think this topic takes up a big flaw with 6th ed weapons. I think that they should have introduced two special rules that effect Initiative, eg. Slow and Unweildly, where Slow lower your Initiative to one and Unwieldly halves your starting I.

 

Even though this might just be wishfull thinking on my side, and it wouldn't almost destroy a piece of wargear, it would sure give you a few more tactical options regarding loadout.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Now as it stands, TH SS is just so much better than an Axe. Being able to thin out Hammernators at i2 would have increased the struggle ^_^

 

Point taken, but power axes are much better than power fists at the prices WG have to pay for them. At least, against infantry. At Assault terminator prices though, yeah.

 

Incidentally, power armour WG with power axes and bolt pistols give hammernators a run for their money. It depends who charges. If the WG get the charge, they'll win. Of course, that unit won't necessarily do too well vs other units (LC assault termies would shred them for example)

 

At 28pts a pop, that is 10 WG with Axe versus 7 Hammernators.

 

WG attack. 3x10 attacks = 30. 15 hit. 12.5 wound. 4.167 dead Termies. 160 pts.

Charging. 5.56 dead Termies. 222 pts

 

Hammernators attack. 2x7 attacks = 14. 7 hit. 5.83 dead Wolf Guard, 163 pts

Charging. 8.75 dead Wolf Guard. 245 pts

 

Ha! You're bang on. ;) But as you said, Axe Guard will get cleaned up pretty handily verses Swords, Plasma and even small arms fire. Two WG die to every one Hammernator from las guns, etc. That's 56 pts compared to 40, or you 140% And considering that the Axe Guard are more like breaking even with the Hammernators at present, had they been able to strike at i2 and thin them out, that would have been a great rock-scissors situation for us gamers in debating Axes against Fists. :D

[skeletoro]

Now as it stands, TH SS is just so much better than an Axe. Being able to thin out Hammernators at i2 would have increased the struggle :lol:

 

Point taken, but power axes are much better than power fists at the prices WG have to pay for them. At least, against infantry. At Assault terminator prices though, yeah.

 

Incidentally, power armour WG with power axes and bolt pistols give hammernators a run for their money. It depends who charges. If the WG get the charge, they'll win. Of course, that unit won't necessarily do too well vs other units (LC assault termies would shred them for example)

 

At 28pts a pop, that is 10 WG with Axe versus 7 Hammernators.

 

WG attack. 3x10 attacks = 30. 15 hit. 12.5 wound. 4.167 dead Termies. 160 pts.

Charging. 5.56 dead Termies. 222 pts

 

Hammernators attack. 2x7 attacks = 14. 7 hit. 5.83 dead Wolf Guard, 163 pts

Charging. 8.75 dead Wolf Guard. 245 pts

 

Ha! You're bang on. :lol: But as you said, Axe Guard will get cleaned up pretty handily verses Swords, Plasma and even small arms fire. Two WG die to every one Hammernator from las guns, etc. That's 56 pts compared to 40, or you 140% And considering that the Axe Guard are more like breaking even with the Hammernators at present, had they been able to strike at i2 and thin them out, that would have been a great rock-scissors situation for us gamers in debating Axes against Fists. :lol:

 

Yeah. Assault termies are good because they're good against practically everything. And that's mainly because they're so obscenely cheap for what they do :D I think they should be closer to the price space wolves pay for them. Well, maybe our codices could meet in the middle. 53 points?

 

I'm interested to calculate how well a combi-plas + power axe TDA squad would do against assault termies if the combi-plas squad got a round of plasma rapid fire first... They're really close to the same points cost too!

 

10 plasma shots, 20/3 hits, 100/18 wounds, 100/54 killed.

 

Overwatch; 10 bolter shots, 20/3 hits, 20/6 wounds, 20/36 killed. That's 30/54, so 130/54 killed so far.

 

I may have miscalculated as I did it by hand. But at this stage it is looking promising for the wolf guard who are fighting against only 2-3 TH+SS termies and have a 10/12 chance of getting counterattack. Of course, they got the jump and are loaded to the teeth with unused combi-plasma so this isn't too surprising really :P

[DanPesci]

Awesome cheers for the feedback everyone!

 

So it seems ill be getting rid of most of the'frost' axes, but keeping the arms anyway so i can swap out power swords/axes when needed. I like the idea of extra strength (albeit I1) weapons on TDA wolf guard leading grey hunters...in challenges, they'll (hopefully!) survive most initiative attacks using their 2+ save, then be left to pan face. In non challenge situations, I see them working just as well as the old PA with PF lineup i used to use did.

 

Small points games, ill prob stick to them having P.Axe (maybe with melta bombs for dealing with armour), larger points games, will throw in a powerfist. :lol:

 

On the subject of 'what they should have made axes'...I think axes at I1 are fine, they chew through A2 for the same points as a power sword, seems a good tradeoff....

however, what they should have done in my opinion is make frost blade/axes in the SW codex the same price as wolf claws, so theyre not as expensive as a powerfist, but more than a standard power weapon

[Karack Blackstone]

I am guessing I'm running my WGPL's wrong then.

 

Mine are all SS/PF in PA. At such a high points cost, I thought the added defense of a SS would prove useful. Experience is starting to tell me that one failed save is all it takes to ruin that WGPL's day.

 

Since money is tight these days, WGPL in PA should have BP/PAxe normally?

[skeletoro]

I am guessing I'm running my WGPL's wrong then.

 

Mine are all SS/PF in PA. At such a high points cost, I thought the added defense of a SS would prove useful. Experience is starting to tell me that one failed save is all it takes to ruin that WGPL's day.

 

Since money is tight these days, WGPL in PA should have BP/PAxe normally?

 

I haven't quite decided what the best option is.

 

It seems that you can either go cheap and shooty, cheap and melee, or expensive and both.

 

Just taking a combi bolter and bolt pistol isn't too bad, but you won't be any better than a grey hunter in melee (worse because you have no standard).

 

Plasma pistol + bolt pistol seems ok (gunslinger). Quite expensive, but not bad. And you get 3-4 attacks.

 

Bolt pistol and power axe is pretty good in melee but very much a glass cannon.

 

One thing I'd consider is taking a TDA Wolfguard squad and tacking 2-3 bp+power axe power armor models on the end. Keep them behind the termies. They pack a huge punch for their points cost.

[Jarl Deathwolf]

What I've been considering trying out (since I've completely abandoned rhinos in the new edition) is WGPL in TDA with a wolf claw and a pf or power axe. That way, due to the specialist rules, I can choose which weapon I use and thus be able to face down a large range of stuff, both in normal cc and in challenges.

 

Chaos Marine squad? Shred them with a wolf claw. Terminators? Ap2 to death. In a challenge, my foe faces a 2+ armor and 5+ invulnerable, so they will either be probably striking at my initiative (pf or power axe) or I get a 2+ save. If I don't think I'll get anywhere close to assault, put him furthest front.

 

Costs 38 (48 with pf instead of power axe) points or so, but it grants huge amounts of tactical versatility to the pack in cc. It will make terminators think twice about assaulting me and I can mow through marines even better than when my WGPL was in PA with a pf and combi-whatever.

 

While I like power axes now, I don't like how they have made frost axes not worth taking for anything other than an extra attack and awesome factor. :D Most of my frost weapons were axes so now I have to go through and fix that, or do a 'counts-as' which irks me.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

What I've been considering trying out (since I've completely abandoned rhinos in the new edition) is WGPL in TDA with a wolf claw and a pf or power axe. That way, due to the specialist rules, I can choose which weapon I use and thus be able to face down a large range of stuff, both in normal cc and in challenges.

 

For the record a Power Axe isn't a specialist weapon do you don't get the extra attack for being armed with 2 specialist weapons like you would with the power fist. So that extra cost is probably worth it to get the extra attack.

[skeletoro]

Most of my frost weapons were axes so now I have to go through and fix that, or do a 'counts-as' which irks me.

Frost swords aren't very good either, unfortunately. Wolf claws are much better, IMO.

[skeletoro]

Yeah. Assault termies are good because they're good against practically everything. And that's mainly because they're so obscenely cheap for what they do :P I think they should be closer to the price space wolves pay for them. Well, maybe our codices could meet in the middle. 53 points?

 

I'm interested to calculate how well a combi-plas + power axe TDA squad would do against assault termies if the combi-plas squad got a round of plasma rapid fire first... They're really close to the same points cost too!

 

10 plasma shots, 20/3 hits, 100/18 wounds, 100/54 killed.

 

Overwatch; 10 bolter shots, 20/3 hits, 20/6 wounds, 20/36 killed. That's 30/54, so 130/54 killed so far.

 

I may have miscalculated as I did it by hand. But at this stage it is looking promising for the wolf guard who are fighting against only 2-3 TH+SS termies and have a 10/12 chance of getting counterattack. Of course, they got the jump and are loaded to the teeth with unused combi-plasma so this isn't too surprising really :P

Not sure why I calculated overwatch; I think it's probably going to be better for the WG to charge and deny the assault terminators their extra attack.

 

The assault terminators will cause 20/36 wounds each. There are 170/54 remaining, so they cause 3400/1944 wounds. The wolf guard have now lost 1.75 models and there are 3.25 remaining

The wolf guard will cause 1/3 wounds each. That's 5/3 (90/54) wounds caused. The assault terminators have now lost 190/54, or 3 1/2 models. There are about 1-2 left.

 

At this point, it's pretty close.

 

Without the charge, the wolf guard will cause only 2/9 wounds each. That's .72 total.

The 1.5 TH+SS terminators will again cause 20/36 wounds each - .83 total.

 

It's anyone's game, but it appears that at least in terms of expected outcomes, the wolf guard would have a smidgen of an edge (and at 10 points cheaper in total).

 

Clearly, if the terminators get the charge, it's not going to look nearly as good for the wolf guard, even with overwatch and counterattack.

[Squark]

Well you can get an extra attack from an additional CCW. Other than that no.

 

But a powerfist will shut off feel no pain (from a Medic or Pain tokens), and it's instant death to any multi-wound T3 models (Most HQs for Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Guard).

 

Both a Frost Axe and a power fist are ID for T3, but a power fist is ID for T4, too. Which means most space marine HQs.

 

Frost Axe, not power axe. DERP :P

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Most of my frost weapons were axes so now I have to go through and fix that, or do a 'counts-as' which irks me.

Frost swords aren't very good either, unfortunately. Wolf claws are much better, IMO.

 

It depends on the second weapon too. Claw and second claw or fist wins vs frost sword in all cases. Frost sword + pistol beats single wolf claw. Single wolf claw beats single sword.

 

I think the frost sword is at its best when paired with a plasma gun... though personally I'd rather have fist/claw.

[skeletoro]

You're right, but the difference between bolt pistol plus frost sword vs bolt pistol plus claw (in terms of wounds caused per point spent) is quite small. In addition, the higher cost of the frost sword means that your unit is more fragile (in terms of models per point spent). Furthermore, bolt pistol plus power sword outperforms both the frost sword and the wolf claw in terms of both criteria.

 

CC weapon showdown

[/td]

[td=width]WCpp (guard)

WCpp (marine)

Mpp

Power sword

1.23

1.05

1.36

Wolf claw

1

1

1.15

Frost sword

1.13

1.03

1

 

EDIT: Not sure how to get this table working. Anyone? :ermm:

 

In the table above I've calculated wounds caused per point spent (WCpp) against a guardsman (WS3, T3, 5+) and a regular space marine (WS4, T4, 3+) as well as models per point. I've assumed +1 attack for the charge/counterattack (losing this bonus disadvantages the wolf claw). For ease of comparison I've presented each cell as a proportion of the worst performer in its column.

 

In other words, a frost sword inflicts slightly more wounds per point spent than a wolf claw against guardsmen (13% more) and space marines (3% more), but the wolf claw unit will be more durable (15% more models - that is, 15% more wounds in the squad).

 

Just to illustrate this tradeoff, 7 FS WG costs 266 points, while 8 WC WG costs 264 points. At full strength the frost sword unit causes 9 1/3 wounds against normal marines, while the wolf claw unit causes only 9. However, after losing 4 models, the frost sword unit can cause only 4 wounds, while the wolf claw unit can cause 4 1/2 (after taking about 2 casualties, the units are fairly evenly matched). When you take into account overwatch fire, initiative 5+ attacks, attrition in multi-turn assaults, and plain-ol' casualties during a foot-slog, and any minor edge that the frost sword has over the wolf claw is likely to be reversed.

 

However, the clear winner is the power sword, which causes 23% / 5% more wounds per point than the wolf claw unit, and has 36% (!!!!!) more models than the frost sword unit for the same points spent.

 

Of course, I'd normally take axes, but hey :)

 

This analysis would be different if you were looking at the best loadout for, say, a wolf lord (not sure which way it would go) But for the wolf lord, I'd be aiming for a specialist AP2 weapon and either a storm shield or a wolf claw.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

You're right, but the difference between bolt pistol plus frost sword vs bolt pistol plus claw (in terms of wounds caused per point spent) is quite small. In addition, the higher cost of the frost sword means that your unit is more fragile (in terms of models per point spent). Furthermore, bolt pistol plus power sword outperforms both the frost sword and the wolf claw in terms of both criteria.

 

CC weapon showdown

[/td]

[td=width]WCpp (guard)

WCpp (marine)

Mpp

Power sword

1.23

1.05

1.36

Wolf claw

1

1

1.15

Frost sword

1.13

1.03

1

 

EDIT: Not sure how to get this table working. Anyone? :lol:

 

In the table above I've calculated wounds caused per point spent (WCpp) against a guardsman (WS3, T3, 5+) and a regular space marine (WS4, T4, 3+) as well as models per point. I've assumed +1 attack for the charge/counterattack (losing this bonus disadvantages the wolf claw). For ease of comparison I've presented each cell as a proportion of the worst performer in its column.

 

In other words, a frost sword inflicts slightly more wounds per point spent than a wolf claw against guardsmen (13% more) and space marines (3% more), but the wolf claw unit will be more durable (15% more models - that is, 15% more wounds in the squad).

 

Just to illustrate this tradeoff, 7 FS WG costs 266 points, while 8 WC WG costs 264 points. At full strength the frost sword unit causes 9 1/3 wounds against normal marines, while the wolf claw unit causes only 9. However, after losing 4 models, the frost sword unit can cause only 4 wounds, while the wolf claw unit can cause 4 1/2 (after taking about 2 casualties, the units are fairly evenly matched). When you take into account overwatch fire, initiative 5+ attacks, attrition in multi-turn assaults, and plain-ol' casualties during a foot-slog, and any minor edge that the frost sword has over the wolf claw is likely to be reversed.

 

However, the clear winner is the power sword, which causes 23% / 5% more wounds per point than the wolf claw unit, and has 36% (!!!!!) more models than the frost sword unit for the same points spent.

 

Of course, I'd normally take axes, but hey B)

 

This analysis would be different if you were looking at the best loadout for, say, a wolf lord (not sure which way it would go) But for the wolf lord, I'd be aiming for a specialist AP2 weapon and either a storm shield or a wolf claw.

 

Wow! Great post. It really highlights how valuable a humble power sword / axe can be.

 

I agree with what you said about the Wolf Lord. One of my rules for list building is that no one in my army is allowed to have claws / fists if the Wolf Lord doesn't have it first. Due to the shift in 6E in shooting I feel that the best CC attacks should go on the best CC character... that being the Lord.

 

I'd also go with the WC/PF Lord for three reasons... 1) Wolf Lords are more offensive than your typical Captain with the extra A and WTN, 2) Storm Shields are severely overcosted for SW (though so is the BoR... which actually makes the TDA 5++ somewhat appealing on value), 3) SotB will cover the weakness that Captain style characters typically have so not as big a deal to have the best invuln possible.

[skeletoro]

Wow! Great post. It really highlights how valuable a humble power sword / axe can be.

 

I agree with what you said about the Wolf Lord. One of my rules for list building is that no one in my army is allowed to have claws / fists if the Wolf Lord doesn't have it first. Due to the shift in 6E in shooting I feel that the best CC attacks should go on the best CC character... that being the Lord.

 

I'd also go with the WC/PF Lord for three reasons... 1) Wolf Lords are more offensive than your typical Captain with the extra A and WTN, 2) Storm Shields are severely overcosted for SW (though so is the BoR... which actually makes the TDA 5++ somewhat appealing on value), 3) SotB will cover the weakness that Captain style characters typically have so not as big a deal to have the best invuln possible.

 

Heh, thanks :lol:

 

Yeah, that's how I feel about wolf lords. They are such beasts, that they really need to be kitted out for maximal melee 'pwnage.' And the unit they lead needs to be similarly enthusiastic about melee (so that the Lord doesn't go to waste standing around twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the assault to begin because their unit really wanted to fire their fancy rapid fire guns). Which is part of the reason I like thunderlords and thunderwolf cavalry so much.

 

I'm a bit torn between belt of russ and storm shield. I'm probably going to just magnetise my thunderlord, I think. I've been wondering whether the cataphractii lightning claw could be attached (at the elbow) to a power armored arm and shoulder pad, without looking too big. I just love the look of those claws!