Brotherhood of the Storm

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Just finished it - it's not that big of an insight into what and why the Khan sided with the Emperor. Overall, though, it was pretty good. I liked the way it was written and how these Heresy-era WS are portrayed. They really come into their own as a true mobile force that specializes at lightning attacks. Battle descriptions were decent (not as good as KNF imo but better than Battle for the Abyss), and I liked the depth that Wraight gave to Shiban and Torghun. I was hoping for some revelation as to why Stormseers are still around after Nikaea, and it was sort of given:

You shall learn to use what you have been given. You shall learn when to use it, and when not to use it. In all these things, you will follow my word of command. No other man shall ever tell you how to use your gifts

"No, daddy, they're going to continue to use their powers BECAUSE I SAY SO." Brilliant...at least it's marginally better than 8 ft tall elemental pokemon, I guess.

The bit with the representation of the Chaos Gods and the Emperor was cool - if we are to take it as real-time soul-surfing in the Warp, then the Emperor was certainly multitasking at that point. Also:

'I know,' said the Warmaster. 'Your word means a great deal to me. To our Father, too, I am sure.'

The Khan raised an eyebrow, and Horus laughed.

I would like to the above quote expounded upon - specifically, this relationship between the Emperor and Jaghatai. Alternatively, perhaps some of the Khan's perspective on how he views Big E and Horus, and what happens to make him decide that he's going to stay a Loyalist.

And I liked the cameo by Hakeem, whom we know was the traitor in Garro: Sword of Truth. Is Torghun traitor too? Probably, yes, from what he says at the end about not being able to divulge what his mission is.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Just finished it - it's not that big of an insight into what and why the Khan sided with the Emperor. Overall, though, it was pretty good. I liked the way it was written and how these Heresy-era WS are portrayed. They really come into their own as a true mobile force that specializes at lightning attacks. Battle descriptions were decent (not as good as KNF imo but better than Battle for the Abyss), and I liked the depth that Wraight gave to Shiban and Torghun. I was hoping for some revelation as to why Stormseers are still around after Nikaea, and it was sort of given:

You shall learn to use what you have been given. You shall learn when to use it, and when not to use it. In all these things, you will follow my word of command. No other man shall ever tell you how to use your gifts

"No, daddy, they're going to continue to use their powers BECAUSE I SAY SO." Brilliant...at least it's marginally better than 8 ft tall elemental pokemon, I guess.

The bit with the representation of the Chaos Gods and the Emperor was cool - if we are to take it as real-time soul-surfing in the Warp, then the Emperor was certainly multitasking at that point. Also:

'I know,' said the Warmaster. 'Your word means a great deal to me. To our Father, too, I am sure.'

The Khan raised an eyebrow, and Horus laughed.

I would like to the above quote expounded upon - specifically, this relationship between the Emperor and Jaghatai. Alternatively, perhaps some of the Khan's perspective on how he views Big E and Horus, and what happens to make him decide that he's going to stay a Loyalist.

And I liked the cameo by Hakeem, whom we know was the traitor in Garro: Sword of Truth. Is Torghun traitor too? Probably, yes, from what he says at the end about not being able to divulge what his mission is.

Why, he can't say?

[Emperor's Furor]

Garro: Sword of Truth isn't out yet so that was a bit of a spoiler for that, I've yet to listen to it.

 

The Terran Khan of the Brotherhood of the Moon was obviously in a lodge though he goes "I can not say" and Brotherhood of the Moon reflects the closeness he has with the Luna Wolves and the mirror coins they use.

 

The Khan has the radiance of the Emperor, he appears to blind anyone he first meets.

 

White Scars don't like being compared to Space Wolves, the Munitorium found that out when they did it once.

[ThisisJimmy]

Why, he can't say?

He never said. Torghun wasn't the main character, rather he was a Terran born White Scar used to show the contrast between them and the Chogorian born marines.

 

Personally I'm not convinced that Torghun is a traitor. Whilst his last comment is very suspect, and he did spend time with the Sons of Horus, I don't think he was with them at the right time. I could be wrong, but from what I could tell, he was with them pre-Ullanor, so I'm wondering if the impact of the warrior lodges was as large at that time. All that could prove to be wrong however if Chris Wraight decides to write another WS book.

 

...8 ft tall elemental pokemon...

 

Don't think I've ever heard that before. What about them gives them that name? :lol:

 

EDIT: Wow, well done WoT, nice analysis. I can honestly say I never would have looked at it quite like that. It certainly does open the possibility of Torghun being a traitor even wider, although I'm still not convinced of the timing of the whole thing. You could certainly argue an element of disillusionment in Torghun in regards to the combat tactics and behaviour of the Chogorian marines.

[Hyperion]

Just finished it - it's not that big of an insight into what and why the Khan sided with the Emperor. Overall, though, it was pretty good. I liked the way it was written and how these Heresy-era WS are portrayed. They really come into their own as a true mobile force that specializes at lightning attacks. Battle descriptions were decent (not as good as KNF imo but better than Battle for the Abyss)

 

Also:

'I know,' said the Warmaster. 'Your word means a great deal to me. To our Father, too, I am sure.'

The Khan raised an eyebrow, and Horus laughed.

I would like to the above quote expounded upon - specifically, this relationship between the Emperor and Jaghatai. Alternatively, perhaps some of the Khan's perspective on how he views Big E and Horus, and what happens to make him decide that he's going to stay a Loyalist.

 

I just finished it too and I thought it was hands-down the best portrayal of White Scars I've seen - they were given exactly the character I always imagined (as a long-term White Scars fan) and I thought it was really well written.

 

"not as good as KNF imo but better than Battle for the Abyss" - heh, you've kinda picked two opposite extremes! You might as well have said "I thought it was somewhere between brilliant and pretty awful" ;)

 

Personally, I thought the battle scenes were very well done, particularly the description of Jaghatai fighting.

 

I do agree that this novella didn't fully reveal the Khan's motivations for staying loyal, but it did illustrate his closeness with Horus - which begins to explain why Horus thought the Khan would join him (Horus's gravest error IMO - if Horus had been right, the Siege would have been an easy victory for the traitors).

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yeah - for me, on a scale of one to ten representing battle scenes, Abyss is like a 5, and KNF is a 10. So, a 7.5 or an 8 is what I'd give to Brotherhood.

...8 ft tall elemental pokemon...

Don't think I've ever heard that before. What about them gives them that name? :huh:

Nothing really - it was the only reference to element-based fictional things I could think of at the time.

[malika666]

I do agree that this novella didn't fully reveal the Khan's motivations for staying loyal, but it did illustrate his closeness with Horus - which begins to explain why Horus thought the Khan would join him (Horus's gravest error IMO - if Horus had been right, the Siege would have been an easy victory for the traitors).

I got a feeling that Horus hoped everybody would join him. Already seemed to have made that same error on the Blood Angels and Iron Hands...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I do agree that this novella didn't fully reveal the Khan's motivations for staying loyal, but it did illustrate his closeness with Horus - which begins to explain why Horus thought the Khan would join him (Horus's gravest error IMO - if Horus had been right, the Siege would have been an easy victory for the traitors).

I got a feeling that Horus hoped everybody would join him. Already seemed to have made that same error on the Blood Angels and Iron Hands...

 

 

Well, he had good reasons, I think, for thinking the Angels and Hands would join him. Fulgrim's friendship with Ferrus and the support of the Fabricator General for one, and while I think he knew Sangy wouldn't turn, he was relying on Sangy to die at Signus and the Angels themselves to fall to Khorne and join his side by default.

 

As for the Khan, I personally feel Horus was reaching. The one thing that can be said for Horus is that he was basically friends with all of the Primarchs. Every one of them liked and trusted him, even the ones who were noticably stand-offish (like the Khan and Alpharius). In fact, the only Primarch I can think of who was not a close and trusted friend of Horus' was Corax. Ergo, saying "he's a close and trusted friend" in terms of getting a Primarch to turn is kind of a piss-poor argument.

 

 

But getting back to the book, I think my favorite part -- and the part most telling when it comes to the flavor and character of the White Scars as a Legion -- was the fact that the Imperium and its war machine never quite knew exactly where the Scars were. Not only were they constantly on the move, but they never reported their movements up the chain. And the best part about it is that they never realized the problem was on their end; they simply expected the Munitorum and the Army expeditions to keep up and know where and when to be.

[[TA]Typher]

I do agree that this novella didn't fully reveal the Khan's motivations for staying loyal, but it did illustrate his closeness with Horus - which begins to explain why Horus thought the Khan would join him (Horus's gravest error IMO - if Horus had been right, the Siege would have been an easy victory for the traitors).

I got a feeling that Horus hoped everybody would join him. Already seemed to have made that same error on the Blood Angels and Iron Hands...

 

 

Well, he had good reasons, I think, for thinking the Angels and Hands would join him. Fulgrim's friendship with Ferrus and the support of the Fabricator General for one, and while I think he knew Sangy wouldn't turn, he was relying on Sangy to die at Signus and the Angels themselves to fall to Khorne and join his side by default.

 

As for the Khan, I personally feel Horus was reaching. The one thing that can be said for Horus is that he was basically friends with all of the Primarchs. Every one of them liked and trusted him, even the ones who were noticably stand-offish (like the Khan and Alpharius). In fact, the only Primarch I can think of who was not a close and trusted friend of Horus' was Corax. Ergo, saying "he's a close and trusted friend" in terms of getting a Primarch to turn is kind of a piss-poor argument.

 

 

But getting back to the book, I think my favorite part -- and the part most telling when it comes to the flavor and character of the White Scars as a Legion -- was the fact that the Imperium and its war machine never quite knew exactly where the Scars were. Not only were they constantly on the move, but they never reported their movements up the chain. And the best part about it is that they never realized the problem was on their end; they simply expected the Munitorum and the Army expeditions to keep up and know where and when to be.

 

I don't think he was close with El'Jonson.

 

After listening to 'the Lion' I doubt the El'Jonson was close to any of his brothers.

[Tyros]

Up to this point (when it comes to published books) there has been no primarch that has anything bad to say about Horus. And he as well did love all his brother even if some were harder to like then others.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Up to this point (when it comes to published books) there has been no primarch that has anything bad to say about Horus. And he as well did love all his brother even if some were harder to like then others.

 

which is true, but we havent heard from very primarch yet.

 

and if we count the old Index Astartes articles, Corax got super pissed at Horus (for using the RG but claiming all the credit for his Legion) and got so angry he removed the RG from Horus's campaigns.

 

Corax also spoke to the Emperor about his concerns on where Mortarion's loyalty was...

 

so apparently Corax was decent at reading his brothers, and not shy to confront a problem.

 

WLK

[Tyros]

Up to this point (when it comes to published books) there has been no primarch that has anything bad to say about Horus. And he as well did love all his brother even if some were harder to like then others.

 

which is true, but we havent heard from very primarch yet.

 

and if we count the old Index Astartes articles, Corax got super pissed at Horus (for using the RG but claiming all the credit for his Legion) and got so angry he removed the RG from Horus's campaigns.

 

Corax also spoke to the Emperor about his concerns on where Mortarion's loyalty was...

 

so apparently Corax was decent at reading his brothers, and not shy to confront a problem.

 

WLK

 

And it's true. But even if he did't like the way Horus waged war how did he think of him as a person? And was this a single incident or happend more times? Horus was a charismatic bastard, I'm sure he said he was very sorry to his brother and then made som grand gesture to make it up to him.

 

And don't you know that loyalty to Horus is the same thing as loyalty to the Emperor? ;)

[Emperor's Furor]

I don't think Corax trusted many people, even one such as Horus.

[b1soul]

Is it implied that the Khan's only friend among the other primarchs is Horus?

[Mantras]

Horus was not universally liked by the other Primarchs, didn't El Johnson, Perturabo, the Khan and Angron (among others) publicly whinge about him being made Warmaster?

 

I think the HH writers are showing Horus was very close to some Primarchs to further contrast to when he betrays them all.

[Billuriye]

Is it implied that the Khan's only friend among the other primarchs is Horus?

 

The writer says he's only fully understood by Horus. In Betrayal, Khan vouches for Angron's ways, so some morcel of fondness may be present between them too.

 

Horus was not universally liked by the other Primarchs, didn't El Johnson, Perturabo, the Khan and Angron (among others) publicly whinge about him being made Warmaster?

 

Khan isn't one of them. Khan likes Horus.

[Tyros]

Horus was not universally liked by the other Primarchs, didn't El Johnson, Perturabo, the Khan and Angron (among others) publicly whinge about him being made Warmaster?

 

I think the HH writers are showing Horus was very close to some Primarchs to further contrast to when he betrays them all.

 

They didn't like that the honur was given to him when they saw themself just as capable to be namned warmaster. So they did't like that he was given a title. By the emperor. See were I'm going with this? It is my belief that they would have resented any choose made by the Emperor if it weren't they how was named.

[Mantras]

I don't have the source material with me, but I am almost certain the Khan was (prior to this book) vocal at the Emperor's Decision. I should invoke Legatus or someone else who can quote these things...

[Mantras]

And on the second point, Guilliam and Sang didn't whine, with Guilliman probably having the most reason to IMHO, so I don't think you can say that just because certain Primarchs complained and others didn't that is the best measure of their respective relationships

[b1soul]

I wonder whether it would've been wiser to have a war council instead of a war master

 

Sure, a council is going to be less efficient, but the alternative is enmity and resentment

[Stormbrow II]

 

How long is it between the Khan returning from Chondax and meeting up with the Wolves' fleet while they're fighting the Alpha Legion fleet, as seen in the Stormseers vision? I've seen ADB talk about story arcs and how he'd like to see some guys switch sides over course of the war.

 

It would be nice to imagine that Primarchs aren't excluded from that group. Perhaps the Khan started out on the side of Horus but was convinced to renege upon that after some later experience? Maybe Russ' conversation was the thing what did it?

 

 

Is it implied that the Khan's only friend among the other primarchs is Horus?

There's no mention made in BotS but he's great friends with Russ. It's in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions on pg 345. I'm not fully sure if that entire thing is still canon anymore though, as so much stuff has already been changed. Not least the artwork...ugh.

[Emperor's Furor]

How long is it between the Khan returning from Chondax and meeting up with the Wolves' fleet while they're fighting the Alpha Legion fleet, as seen in the Stormseers vision? I've seen ADB talk about story arcs and how he'd like to see some guys switch sides over course of the war.

 

It would be nice to imagine that Primarchs aren't excluded from that group. Perhaps the Khan started out on the side of Horus but was convinced to renege upon that after some later experience? Maybe Russ' conversation was the thing what did it?

 

 

Is it implied that the Khan's only friend among the other primarchs is Horus?

There's no mention made in BotS but he's great friends with Russ. It's in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions on pg 345. I'm not fully sure if that entire thing is still canon anymore though, as so much stuff has already been changed. Not least the artwork...ugh.

 

 

I think that's been changed, in the description of Brotherhood of the Storm it said Leman Russ was exasperated by him, as well as the fact the White Scars in Brotherhood of the Storm don't like being compared to the Space Wolves.

[Billuriye]

There's no mention made in BotS but he's great friends with Russ. It's in the Horus Heresy Collected Visions on pg 345. I'm not fully sure if that entire thing is still canon anymore though, as so much stuff has already been changed. Not least the artwork...ugh.

 

Ninja'd. Khan seems to have a low opinion on SW too, dismissing them as berserkers.

[Emperor's Furor]

The Khan comes off as pretty spiritual tbh, which is why it's possible he does side with Horus, given how close they are as well. I think however something bad must happen, so that the Khan has a change of heart, that would be something cool to read about imo if that happened.

[Billuriye]

I'm sure we'll get to read. The book and WS' depiction are well liked.