ML Devs vs Plasma Devs in 6th

[Shaggy12009]

It's a little unconventional but in switching to landraiders. Hear me out here. With people switching to plasma over melta, the raider is un touchable. It mounts 2 twin linked las cannons. They still need a 6 to hit but you get a reroll and can pen any vehicle on a 4+ or better with ap2. They still hurt termies and deny FnP. They can transport your assualt squads/death company/sanguinary guard so they hit at full strength. Lastly, I still kill terminators the old fashioned way, with weight of fire. I don't know the math off the top of my head but a Baal should be able to pick up a model or two per turn by itself. Try one as a transport for an assault squad without jump packs for a few games and they won't let you down.

[Kickrock]

It's a little unconventional but in switching to landraiders. Hear me out here. With people switching to plasma over melta, the raider is un touchable. It mounts 2 twin linked las cannons. They still need a 6 to hit but you get a reroll and can pen any vehicle on a 4+ or better with ap2. They still hurt termies and deny FnP. They can transport your assualt squads/death company/sanguinary guard so they hit at full strength. Lastly, I still kill terminators the old fashioned way, with weight of fire. I don't know the math off the top of my head but a Baal should be able to pick up a model or two per turn by itself. Try one as a transport for an assault squad without jump packs for a few games and they won't let you down.

 

This is difficult for me to explain because I am arguing both sides to myself... so bear with me. I partially agree with you except for one main part; people switching to plasma over melta. Most of the places that we saw Melta, it will remain melta. Assault Squads will still take melta as that is the only special weapon option they have (Flamers don't count). Raptors will take Melta over Plasma for the sake of assault. Dire Avengers still exist (Those are the Eldar melta guys, right?). Dark Eldar still have all of their Lance and Melta. And most importantly, when you roll that Land Raider past mid field past those Sternguard, remember that they're still packing combi meltas.

 

On the Land Raider note, I am not ruling them out (LR deep striking to Scouts) but they are more fragile than before. S8 before could not take down a Land Raider. You would have to roll a minimum of 5 Weapon Destroy / Imobilized specifically before the thing went down. Do the math on the statistics on that... Now all you have to do is glance it 4 times and its out of the fight. Remember, tanks went away. Anti Tank didnt.

 

If you want to pull out the Land Raider in that complete "the opponent won't know what to do" aspect you'll want to soften your opponent up first. Make him adapt his strategy to counter a foot list, then pull the land raider out so he doens't have the strength to deal with it. It'll take time (Months) but... it works.

 

Now a story that relates!!

 

I'm fairly new at this game. Only been playing a couple of years. My local store in Dayton Ohio (Lets see if I can strike up something here) has a group of brothers. Not so much the win at all costs, but they only build those tournament lists. I'm sure do to money restraints. Well, I did this twice to the guard player. I didn't want to, and still don't like the Razorback Spam. I generally run Descent of Angels. Well, this guard player got so used to positioning for my Marines to float down that one day I pull 6 Predators and 6 Razorbacks out of my ass. He didn't know what to do... So yes, conditioning your opponents to expect one thing and then pull something like a Land raider out of nowhere is completely doable! I also did it to a guy who was so used to seeing Scouts and ASM he didn't know how to handle 20 Death Company with power wepaons.

[Adorondak]

I didn't notice anybody else bring this up, but I'm guessing that it's almost guaranteed that eventually blood angles will also have access to the flak missiles for our missile launchers and likely at ten points for each launcher just like chaos. That would put the missile launchers at 20 points, making it the second most expensive option. But that would definetly make the missile launcher the most versatile choice

[Shaggy12009]

It's a little unconventional but in switching to landraiders. Hear me out here. With people switching to plasma over melta, the raider is un touchable. It mounts 2 twin linked las cannons. They still need a 6 to hit but you get a reroll and can pen any vehicle on a 4+ or better with ap2. They still hurt termies and deny FnP. They can transport your assualt squads/death company/sanguinary guard so they hit at full strength. Lastly, I still kill terminators the old fashioned way, with weight of fire. I don't know the math off the top of my head but a Baal should be able to pick up a model or two per turn by itself. Try one as a transport for an assault squad without jump packs for a few games and they won't let you down.

 

This is difficult for me to explain because I am arguing both sides to myself... so bear with me. I partially agree with you except for one main part; people switching to plasma over melta. Most of the places that we saw Melta, it will remain melta. Assault Squads will still take melta as that is the only special weapon option they have (Flamers don't count). Raptors will take Melta over Plasma for the sake of assault. Dire Avengers still exist (Those are the Eldar melta guys, right?). Dark Eldar still have all of their Lance and Melta. And most importantly, when you roll that Land Raider past mid field past those Sternguard, remember that they're still packing combi meltas.

 

On the Land Raider note, I am not ruling them out (LR deep striking to Scouts) but they are more fragile than before. S8 before could not take down a Land Raider. You would have to roll a minimum of 5 Weapon Destroy / Imobilized specifically before the thing went down. Do the math on the statistics on that... Now all you have to do is glance it 4 times and its out of the fight. Remember, tanks went away. Anti Tank didnt.

 

If you want to pull out the Land Raider in that complete "the opponent won't know what to do" aspect you'll want to soften your opponent up first. Make him adapt his strategy to counter a foot list, then pull the land raider out so he doens't have the strength to deal with it. It'll take time (Months) but... it works.

 

Now a story that relates!!

 

I'm fairly new at this game. Only been playing a couple of years. My local store in Dayton Ohio (Lets see if I can strike up something here) has a group of brothers. Not so much the win at all costs, but they only build those tournament lists. I'm sure do to money restraints. Well, I did this twice to the guard player. I didn't want to, and still don't like the Razorback Spam. I generally run Descent of Angels. Well, this guard player got so used to positioning for my Marines to float down that one day I pull 6 Predators and 6 Razorbacks out of my ass. He didn't know what to do... So yes, conditioning your opponents to expect one thing and then pull something like a Land raider out of nowhere is completely doable! I also did it to a guy who was so used to seeing Scouts and ASM he didn't know how to handle 20 Death Company with power wepaons.

 

One of the problems with posting on forums is that we are always talking about battles in a vacuume. Terrain and the opponent's list always factor into real game decisions. The general consensus I've seen (and disagree with) on many forums is wherever possible drop your melta spam for plasma spam. While I agree plasma has a better rate of fire and longer range vs termies and the like, I think people are knee jerking to allow a land raider to be effective again. I only brought it up here as an anti flyer unit and highlighted where else it can be usefull.

 

P.S. OMG two people having a respectful disagreement on a forum topic. Maybe the world is about to end after all. :)

[mmaarrkk]

I didn't notice anybody else bring this up, but I'm guessing that it's almost guaranteed that eventually blood angles will also have access to the flak missiles for our missile launchers and likely at ten points for each launcher just like chaos. That would put the missile launchers at 20 points, making it the second most expensive option. But that would definetly make the missile launcher the most versatile choice

 

 

Very much looking forward to that happening, but will paint a even bigger target on devi's heads, will need to spend more on the flakk and more on spare bodies, plus i also keep mine behind a aegis with a libby for divi powers and sang priest, thats a expensive part of my list!

[DominicJ]

I havent really changed my plas/melt selections.

 

Assaults still get melta, plasma for tacticals.

 

My guard never took melta, but did take demolisher cannons and vast quantities of plasma.

 

Did people ever take tacticals with melta?

 

 

Podded Sternguard are a threat to a raider, but not a big one, your looking at needing at least 250pts of sternguard with combi meltas to pop a 250pt raider, at which point the cargo will kill the sternguard.

 

 

If the sterns are unlucky, they fail to pop the raider, which runs, and they are slaughtered by other units.

If they are lucky, well, nothing.

[Kickrock]

Did people ever take tacticals with melta?

 

Podded Sternguard are a threat to a raider, but not a big one, your looking at needing at least 250pts of sternguard with combi meltas to pop a 250pt raider, at which point the cargo will kill the sternguard.

 

If the sterns are unlucky, they fail to pop the raider, which runs, and they are slaughtered by other units.

If they are lucky, well, nothing.

 

When I was REALLY new to Blood Angels (or any marine for that matter), which was about 6 months into me playing the game, I would take Drop Pod Tactical marines as a scuicide unit with melta in order to slow down or disrupt my enemy. But I was also afraid of using models as something they were modeld / painted for (Tacticals as Vets. Death Company as ASM. Predator as a Razorback). Now I just don't care and will find another match outside of tournament play.

 

I do want to ask a rule clarification[/b. I've yet to find it myself (or look very hard) but in my last game (and only second game of 6th edition) I had transports for my Zerkers. Transport blew up on their turn, but I could not assault on the next turn. I had to wait until the following turn. This used to be my strat for delivering Death Company and Zerkers. Drive up next to someone and when the tank explodes assault out of the wrecks. Was that legit? If it was not, I was dooped even though I still slaughtered next turn. If it was in fact a legit rule; The contents of a Land Raider in your scenario, from my experience are usually some sort of Melee unit to make use of the "Assault Vehichle" rule. Terminators, Death Cults and Death Company are generally what I have seen. Having popped a transport with your sternguard, regardless of the outcome would they have to wait an extra turn to assault / come after you however able shoot as moving? This would give you potentially more room and another round of shooting to get away.

 

That doesn't account for everything else that was around that Land Raider when you dropped in on it. I was a huge fan of the Scuicide Fuiroso's / Death Company Dreadnoughts, but with Hull Points the way they are it is more risky then before.

[DominicJ]

You can't assault after disembarking from a none assault vehicle.

If a vehicle is wrecked, you disembark.

[Kickrock]

You can't assault after disembarking from a none assault vehicle.

If a vehicle is wrecked, you disembark.

 

Doesn't exactly answer what I was asking. If my transport gets destroyed in your shooting phase, then am I not allowed to assault in my next assault phase?

 

I went a head and looked it up, and that is in fact true. Its on Pg 79, disembark restrictions. This was not the case in the previous codex.

 

That being said, and back to what I was saying before, it would still be wrong as it is an Assault Vehicle and the rule states you can assault even it the tank was destroyed... My bad. Thanks anyway.

[DominicJ]

If my transport gets destroyed in your shooting phase, then am I not allowed to assault in my next assault phase?

 

That is correct, you may not.

[AngelsWithBaals]

But you may assault after your ASSAULT VEHICLE (or open topped vehicle) is destroyed in your opponents turn and you are forced to disembark. Pretty sure the latest round of rulebook FAQ cleared that one.