[TA]Typher Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 WARNING This contains spoilers! Don't read if you haven't listened to "The Lion". After listening to the audio book 'The Lion' it's clear that El'Jonson was clearly a loyalist. I know people have been stuck on the ramblings of Captain Astelan from the novel Angels of Darkness as proof that the Lion was secretly waiting to see who would win the war before picking a side. I always believed that Astelan's beliefs were misguided, as he didn't understand the primarchs mind and had been cast aside by the Lion. After listening to this audio book it is quite clear that the Lion was loyal to the Emperor. Granted it's also clear that he isn't loyal to some of the fellow loyalists. If anything he's only at fault for having complete faith in the Emperor. It was also interesting to see that he knew of the events on Caliban, but couldn't waste time correcting the problem. Basically his goal was to win the broader war, even at the cost of losing the battle at home. I understand the reasons that he didn't act more directly, wanting all sides to wear each other down. It seems to me that he wanted only the Emperor to have all the power and not his brother legions. Although I didn't hear his say it, I'd assume he wanted to be at the for front of the power vacuum just after the emperor. With the other loyalist legions weakened he would have been in a good position. I'd like to think that this was a smart strategy, but it's hard to think that the power of all the remaining loyalists would diminished enough for this to happen. I mean the Ultras had a huge legion. At first I hated the idea of the Lion using the warp device T'Chulka. things so closely attached to the warp have a way of turning out bad, even when used for good purposes. After thinking a bit more it's clear that this device is the reason that the Rock exists. It's the reason that the watchers exists. The reason that the Lion was saved when Caliban fell. It's the first time I've heard the inner workings of the Lion, and not some watered down third person perspective. In the future I would like to see at least one of the other primarchs that the Lion had a bond with. I don't think I've read anything that had him even remotely friendly with any of his brothers. Anyone else have any thoughts on all of this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Haven't the audio book, but pretty much confirms what we the DA players knew all along about our primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The other thing that struck me about Jonson from 'The Lion' (short story in The Primarchs not the audio book version) is that he clearly believes that the big E is and should always be in charge, but he doesn't blindly follow his edicts or commands, as evidenced by him disregarding the Edict of Nikea . This sets him apart from the other Primarchs (well, apart from Magnus I suppose :mellow:) I think it also hints at the long-standing fluff rumour that the 40K era DA and successor chapters still maintain active links and are ready and able to reform into a complete Legion if necessary, as after Jonson's departure, I can't imagine Corswain or any of the other senior Dark Angels fully trusting Guilliman's decision to split the Legions up . I do hope this is explored either in Gav Thorpe's upcoming 40k trilogy, or in future Heresy books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 For all we know, the Lion could be part of the "special privileges" Primarch club. I have my doubts the Lion, who trusted 100% the Emperor and only him, would go against his edicts if he didn't have at least an inkling of their true purpose and why they didn't apply to his Legion. At the very least, his loyalty to the Emperor would make him accept the sacrifice of his Legion if that was the only way to serve; he was never shy of putting himself in the highest risk for the sake of victory and probably expected no less from his followers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233795 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepheriah Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Hey facmanpob, I love the lion, was a fantastic story and delved into the mind of the Primarch like no other fiction has of yet. I think there are two primary points that were raised by it. 1: The Lion may look arrogant, but its not arrogance, its utter confidence in his belief, his path, and the rule of the Emperor. We all know the Emperor is a god, we also know why he has to make everyone believe he isn't, the Lion also knows this, how many times in "The Lion" does he think about the nature and existence of deamons and the part they played in his early childhood, then counter it by saying they don't exist 2: No other legion can afford to go face to face with Him or His legion. It states clearly, Horus cannot afford to risk open war with the Lion and the Dark Angels. The knowledge of the Lion's tactical genius and view of the "long game" is such that the traitors know they don't stand much chance of success if the DA's are bought to task. Hell, even Night Haunter is doing everything in his power, and the power of the warp allied to him, just to stay out of his reach. I got straight away that the warp engine is most probably what powers The Rock, it makes sense, and the thing even sought him out as he is the only one that knows how to use it properly , contextually rather than mechanically that is :P I do agree that we need to see more interaction with his brother Primarchs, the only full conversation so far is with Perturabo, and he's not exactly on best friends terms. Also, its quite galling that the other Primarchs rarely mention him. He's the First Primarch, first among a small brotherhood of demi-gods no less! Still, the future is still open for the DA's, so we can only hope for more of this quality work! Lastly, i noticed something regarding the Lion's killing of Nemiel. Firstly, i expected Nemiel to play a larger role in the unfolding drama of the legions future history, so was shocked by it. Secondly, the Lion's reaction to the killing. Corswain saw the look of momentary satisfaction before the Lion realised what he'd done, perhaps suggesting something? Neither of these two points were what i picked up on though. There are four stories in "The Primarchs", its interesting to point out that of those four stories, in three of them the Primarch in question kills a senior/trusted/loyal member of his own legion, Fulgrim kills Eidolon, Omegon kills Sheed Ranko, the Lion Kills Nemiel, leaving Ferrus Manus as odd one out as he merely condemned himself to death. Could this be an indication that maybe the Lion's path isn't as smooth as we believe it to be/have been? Love to chat fluff! Also, what Watch Captain Azreal said :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Lastly, i noticed something regarding the Lion's killing of Nemiel. Firstly, i expected Nemiel to play a larger role in the unfolding drama of the legions future history, so was shocked by it. Secondly, the Lion's reaction to the killing. Corswain saw the look of momentary satisfaction before the Lion realised what he'd done, perhaps suggesting something? Neither of these two points were what i picked up on though. There are four stories in "The Primarchs", its interesting to point out that of those four stories, in three of them the Primarch in question kills a senior/trusted/loyal member of his own legion, Fulgrim kills Eidolon, Omegon kills Sheed Ranko, the Lion Kills Nemiel, leaving Ferrus Manus as odd one out as he merely condemned himself to death. Could this be an indication that maybe the Lion's path isn't as smooth as we believe it to be/have been? I may be reading too much into this, but I felt this was Gav Thorpe's way of endorsing ADB's vision of the Dark Angels while utterly rejecting Scanlon's in a manner that couldn't be reversed short of resurrecting Nemiel. Nemiel was always kind've a shady character, anyway; wasn't he involved in that plot to assassinate the Emperor? I'm glad we've got a respectable hero like Corswain to represent the loyalist Dark Angels, vice the opportunistic traitor who was originally intended for that purpose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Zeph, I definitely see Jonson as one of the darker Primarchs, far more so than some of the traitors, such as Fulgrim or Alpharius/Omegon, to the extent that in some ways he is as haunted by his inner "demons" as Curze is. This seems to be reflected in The Lion, Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows in that he appears far less dismissive of Curze and his outlook and motives than he is the likes of Guilliman. Which on the surface mighht seem strange, given that Curze is a traitor and Guilliman a loyalist (even though Jonson doesn't specifically know that Guilliman is a loyalist fighting for the big E, it is clear that he is fighting against Horus). Another thing that is somewhat annoying is that despite having 2 full Heresy novels about the Dark Angels, the most important expose of the character of the primarch comes from 3 short stories (2 of which are by ADB and are more focussed on the Night Lords!) :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Lastly, i noticed something regarding the Lion's killing of Nemiel. Firstly, i expected Nemiel to play a larger role in the unfolding drama of the legions future history, so was shocked by it. Secondly, the Lion's reaction to the killing. Corswain saw the look of momentary satisfaction before the Lion realised what he'd done, perhaps suggesting something? Neither of these two points were what i picked up on though. There are four stories in "The Primarchs", its interesting to point out that of those four stories, in three of them the Primarch in question kills a senior/trusted/loyal member of his own legion, Fulgrim kills Eidolon, Omegon kills Sheed Ranko, the Lion Kills Nemiel, leaving Ferrus Manus as odd one out as he merely condemned himself to death. Could this be an indication that maybe the Lion's path isn't as smooth as we believe it to be/have been? I may be reading too much into this, but I felt this was Gav Thorpe's way of endorsing ADB's vision of the Dark Angels while utterly rejecting Scanlon's in a manner that couldn't be reversed short of resurrecting Nemiel. Nemiel was always kind've a shady character, anyway; wasn't he involved in that plot to assassinate the Emperor? I'm glad we've got a respectable hero like Corswain to represent the loyalist Dark Angels, vice the opportunistic traitor who was originally intended for that purpose. I agree. I never liked the way Scanlon treated the whole issue of Luther and his mob being sent back to Caliban, and whilst Mike Lee made some amends in Fallen Angels it has taken the combined talents of ADB and Gav Thorpe to remould the DA into something a bit more like I was expecting from the outset. I assume there will be some more shorts and a novel about the return to Caliban....I wonder who will be writing those? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepheriah Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Exactly my view Facman. Its also worth remembering that of all of the Primarchs there are only two share a common upbringing. That of the Lion and the Curze. Both were stranded and alone, not encountering or interacting with other humans until well into the "teen" stages. They share a common darkness in that they had to look past right and wrong in the immediate and look at the end result. Obviously, Lion came out striving to acheive the best possible result for humanity despite the sacrifices that need to be made, and Curze chose the easy route of violence and oppression. People often look at Alpharius/Omegon as the Primarchs that can see end result of the Heresy, and ultimately, the victory beyond, but the Lion also knows this, and unlike them, he figured it out on his own, he didn't need the Accuity or the Cabal to show him. It's been made clear across all of the DA stories that the Lion possesses a mind for tactics that no other has, that he can see a problem objectively, understand outcome desired and plan it out with utter precision, probably why the rest fear open conflict with him. Its also quite possible that with the way Gav has written the Lions brooding contemplations into the story, that he may actually be able to see the end game that the 40k era is facing now and that he has laid plans for this, though that is just speculation on my part based on lots of circumstantial evidence :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 People often look at Alpharius/Omegon as the Primarchs that can see end result of the Heresy, and ultimately, the victory beyond, but the Lion also knows this, and unlike them, he figured it out on his own, he didn't need the Accuity or the Cabal to show him. It's been made clear across all of the DA stories that the Lion possesses a mind for tactics that no other has, that he can see a problem objectively, understand outcome desired and plan it out with utter precision, probably why the rest fear open conflict with him. Its also quite possible that with the way Gav has written the Lions brooding contemplations into the story, that he may actually be able to see the end game that the 40k era is facing now and that he has laid plans for this, though that is just speculation on my part based on lots of circumstantial evidence :lol: I agree with your assessment of the Lion's abilities, but I disagree that we know that he reasoned it out for himself, specifically due to the Watchers in the Dark being part of the Cabal. Until we get specific information on what the Lion's relationship with those figures is, it is just as likely that he was actively working with them as it is they were merely watching him to know if they needed to destroy him. One of the reasons I postulate this is that the Lion was depicted as talking to the darkness around him on at least one occasion (don't have my books right now, can't quote), but that could be a hint that either a Watcher is with him "in the Dark" or he can speak with them in some fashion, or he could just be slightly mad... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepheriah Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Oh of course, the watchers are there for sure, forgot about them (how!?!) but i've read everything related to the DA's and know of no link between them and the cabal. I'd take it as a given that he's talking to at least one when he talks to himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 IIRC, which I may not be doing right now, the Watcher that speaks to Zahariel mentions them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Then it might be possible that we turn best buds with the alhpa legion, in a far distant and twisted future when the galaxy has gone even madder and humanity is on the edge of extinction? Fun times. I cant believe how I twist things some times... Its a calling I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepheriah Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Then it might be possible that we turn best buds with the alhpa legion, in a far distant and twisted future when the galaxy has gone even madder and humanity is on the edge of extinction? Fun times. I cant believe how I twist things some times... Its a calling I guess. i lol'd :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Then it might be possible that we turn best buds with the alhpa legion, in a far distant and twisted future when the galaxy has gone even madder and humanity is on the edge of extinction? Fun times. I cant believe how I twist things some times... Its a calling I guess. ... Have you been colluding with Matty W. lately, frater? Let's discuss this in cell 42 over a cup of tanna tea... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So.. The Lion audiodrama from "The Primarchs" is different from the book? Interesting.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3233999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepheriah Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So.. The Lion audiodrama from "The Primarchs" is different from the book? Interesting.... Nope, i listened to the audio one today, its the same, if a little shorter than the written version. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Then it might be possible that we turn best buds with the alhpa legion, in a far distant and twisted future when the galaxy has gone even madder and humanity is on the edge of extinction? Fun times. I cant believe how I twist things some times... Its a calling I guess. ... Have you been colluding with Matty W. lately, frater? Let's discuss this in cell 42 over a cup of tanna tea... I swear it was brother Bob stealing my account and posting! You believe me right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Then it might be possible that we turn best buds with the alhpa legion, in a far distant and twisted future when the galaxy has gone even madder and humanity is on the edge of extinction? Fun times. I cant believe how I twist things some times... Its a calling I guess. ... Have you been colluding with Matty W. lately, frater? Let's discuss this in cell 42 over a cup of tanna tea... I swear it was brother Bob stealing my account and posting! You believe me right? If you have to ask that, you should be the first to know I can't... "brother..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I'll try to post the relevant quote later, but the Watcher talking to Zahariel does mention that "they" (his people - unclear how far that means) are part of a "cabal" (also unclear if this is the same Cabal as mentioned in Legion, which was stated to have rejected using the Dark Angels in favor of the Alpha Legion, or some other cabal that is watching humanity and guiding events to defeat Chaos). I lean toward "It's the same Cabal, but the groups within it aren't 100% unified and the Watchers see something that needs monitoring within the Dark Angels and are watching Oroborous on Caliban." I'm fairly certain I posted the whole quote before, but it is eluding me on the Search function. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Oooo.. Off to listen to Grey Angel again for that watcher.... And I figured out what I was thinking earlier... Need to read The Primarchs again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Oroborous is the demon of the planets core right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 .... bit oversimplified but yes, that is the daemon they tried to pull through the hole in the warp that Calaban plugs... I can see that I am not going to get Salvations Reach done this weekend.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 And it just strikes me as "odd" that the post-Heresy Thousand Sons use the oroborous as their Legion symbol and it has long been associated with alchemy and sometimes even "mystic arts". My pondering of this, along with the Lion's plundering of the Knights of the Wolf library, is how much exactly do the DA Librarians understand with regards to the demons, Chaos beasties of Caliban (nephilla), psyker/sorcerous powers, etc. I'm hoping for some more new connections and literary allusions in this area in our next Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinen Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 ... What means an epigraph of the novella in your opinion? It is about split of a legion or about hostility of the Lion and his brothers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/#findComment-3234188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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