Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 .... bit oversimplified but yes, that is the daemon they tried to pull through the hole in the warp that Calaban plugs... I can see that I am not going to get Salvations Reach done this weekend.... Hm... Interesting correlation then. And it just strikes me as "odd" that the post-Heresy Thousand Sons use the oroborous as their Legion symbol and it has long been associated with alchemy and sometimes even "mystic arts". My pondering of this, along with the Lion's plundering of the Knights of the Wolf library, is how much exactly do the DA Librarians understand with regards to the demons, Chaos beasties of Caliban (nephilla), psyker/sorcerous powers, etc. I'm hoping for some more new connections and literary allusions in this area in our next Codex. Actually Oroboros is not a hydra, you might want to wiki it, its too long to write about it here and it will be out of topic too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Lastly, i noticed something regarding the Lion's killing of Nemiel. Firstly, i expected Nemiel to play a larger role in the unfolding drama of the legions future history, so was shocked by it. Secondly, the Lion's reaction to the killing. Corswain saw the look of momentary satisfaction before the Lion realised what he'd done, perhaps suggesting something? Neither of these two points were what i picked up on though. There are four stories in "The Primarchs", its interesting to point out that of those four stories, in three of them the Primarch in question kills a senior/trusted/loyal member of his own legion, Fulgrim kills Eidolon, Omegon kills Sheed Ranko, the Lion Kills Nemiel, leaving Ferrus Manus as odd one out as he merely condemned himself to death. Could this be an indication that maybe the Lion's path isn't as smooth as we believe it to be/have been? I fully concur with the conclusion the Lion is a Loyalist in his heart, but I think he's becoming unstable in places, and certainly making mistakes. However, that's a different issue I don't particularly want to get into right now! Anyway, I was waiting for someone to defend the Lion's murder of one of his most senior officers! Has anyone read Fear to Tread? There is a very telling mention of the shock and horror of a Primarch killing one of his own Legionaires, and the horror of it spoke volumes to me, screamed out "what about the Lion?" It seems very obvious Black Library authors are providing a contrast between loyalist Primarch behaviour and that of the Traitors. Enigmatically, the Lion skirts the behavioural traits of both. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The difference is that our Primarch is accustomed to experiencing abject terror due to his infancy in a Deathworld, something your Primarch never knew being a silver spoon. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234255 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 The difference is that our Primarch is accustomed to experiencing abject terror due to his infancy in a Deathworld, something your Primarch never knew being a silver spoon. ;) Dont hurt the kids, they lost the poster boy pageant and they are sad now :) Jokes aside, what he said is true. His mind is a tad bit conditioned to horror, as he had a brutal childhood. EDIT: Consider that what he did, might not even seem irrational to him but an expected reaction. What to people with first hand horror experiences may seem brutal, unethical, evil blah blah to a man who has experienced and survived it might be a logical thing. The mind interpreters actions and reactions according to personal perspective and experience. To elaborate further: If you train a child from infancy to commit murder without teaching him/her anything else is he/she unstable? EDIT2: Not from societies POV but from a medical one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 [Actually Oroboros is not a hydra, you might want to wiki it, its too long to write about it here and it will be out of topic too. And is still the symbol of the Thousand sons, not the symbol of the Alpha legion (Hydra). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 [Actually Oroboros is not a hydra, you might want to wiki it, its too long to write about it here and it will be out of topic too. And is still the symbol of the Thousand sons, not the symbol of the Alpha legion (Hydra). :Facepalm, Logic fail et al.... Thanks for the correction brother! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234269 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Well.... since both have been discussed in this thread... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 I agree. I never liked the way Scanlon treated the whole issue of Luther and his mob being sent back to Caliban, and whilst Mike Lee made some amends in Fallen Angels it has taken the combined talents of ADB and Gav Thorpe to remould the DA into something a bit more like I was expecting from the outset. I assume there will be some more shorts and a novel about the return to Caliban....I wonder who will be writing those? ADB has indicated that he'd like to write more on the Dark Angels, but Gav had already laid claim to the novels to follow. However, I don't know if that's talking only about the 40K-era trilogy that's supposed to come out, or if there's more Horus Heresy era DA stuff to follow. I do hope for another ADB short story, if nothing else - Gav may have written Angels of Darkness, but I feel ADB was the one most responsible for getting us back on track. Either way, though, the authors have definitively closed the book on the Zahariel/Nemiel split - no more will the DA standard bearers be the unjustly maligned hero and the traitor working for the Lion. Might we see more reverberations from the Lion killing Nemiel? Perhaps. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Gav killed him just to eliminate him from the story and then decide not to mention him ever again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 There is a thread on here dealing with "The Lion" short story. I can't remember it right now but it's there. I thought the Lion did that because he kept questioning his command about. Also Guillaman* came to the same conclusion about them but didn't use them as he didn't want to go against the Big E but kept it in mind that something needed to be done to use them. Which is why they are okay to use again from the Codex he instituted. Also the Lion has a penchant for not knowing who to trust, being that he grew up all alone. Another reason why he didn't think it would be bad to trust Perturabo. He used to use Luther for finding who to trust. Then Luther did what he did, so he was sent away. He used Nemiel once or twice in FA about if someone should be trusted or not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 hmmm... Namiels death did seem a little out of place for the 1st legions primarch to do. I would have thought banishing him would have been more in step with his character. I understand that he would be upset, I mean his ship was being overrun and the only solid weapon he had was himself and psykers. The choice, while against the Emperors edicts, was a necessity. Having some subordinate dictate what he could or couldn't do would have angered almost any of the primarchs. But, removing his head seemed more of a night haunter/Angron reaction. the Lion, like Curze, was haunted by their years in isolation. I believe that they constantly fought to retain their humanity. With the warp nipping at their mind, attempting to sway them into despair and irrational violence. Konrad has obviously given up this fight a long time ago. The Lion on the other hand sometimes has momentary failures in these battles. To me, it seems that Gav showing one such moment, with the Lion smiling at Namiels death. But still... if this was a mainstay of his behavior we would have seen it before. Maybe Gav was just trying to get rid of a character that he disliked? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I believe Nemiel's death has three main reasons: 1) He lost his temper, struck him and accidently killed him 2) Thorpe wanted to get rid of him 3) Comes back to Knightly imagery again, he just disobeyed and tried to undermine the authority of his liege-lord, while he can offer advice, to actually disobey and attempt to arrest him is something else entirely. It is treachery. In this case, it is a form of summary execution. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 From Grey Angel I am just happy with the bit that Cypher is working with Loken and the =I=. It fits in with my pet theory that Cypher isnt a person it is an office of the loyalist Dark Angel Chapter. That whole bit of why the GotC were created is a red herring... IMHO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 From Grey Angel I am just happy with the bit that Cypher is working with Loken and the =I=. It fits in with my pet theory that Cypher isnt a person it is an office of the loyalist Dark Angel Chapter. That whole bit of why the GotC were created is a red herring... IMHO What is this Grey Angel that folks mention? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 From Grey Angel I am just happy with the bit that Cypher is working with Loken and the =I=. It fits in with my pet theory that Cypher isnt a person it is an office of the loyalist Dark Angel Chapter. That whole bit of why the GotC were created is a red herring... IMHO What is this Grey Angel that folks mention? Adiobook/drama http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Re...alue=grey+angel Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Here's the original one I was mentioning earlier. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...247005&st=0 Here's a different Thread. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=251847 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3234576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleqvin Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 With all being said about this story. I bet it was just a reason to kill him to make Zahariel more likely to be against Lion in the end when he finds out about it. Story wise. The Lion has issues with trusting people. He didn't learn those skills while on his own in the wilds of one of the worst deathworlds with the warp beasts plaguing the people. Luther, who was supposed to be his friend, ally and the one who was there for Lion to help him with judging the character of others/ figuring who to trust, had almost let a nuke go off to let the Lion die. The Lion let him live, it was in exile along with a bunch of others that may have been more towards Luther, more dealings with him. Why they all were sent back or a cover so it wasn't as apparent those people were being exiled. It appears in Fallen Angels that he started using Nemiel for that. Now someone who was the one helping him with this, is being contradictory with his order, in other words going against him. So it could have been an "I am not going to let another try to let me die. Wigged out rage. Killed him." He then shows... remorse with his reaction to what he did. Someone who didn't have people to show him how to trust, properly cope and what have you, in an adolescent age where one would learn these things could be prone to extreme reactions when they start to feel betrayed. That's one way to look at what he did. Another way is that he is a bit of a loon. :P Both of those are plausible reasons why he has done what he has done. We won't know more for certainty till they write more novels showing more of either of those. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3235297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 Written before about Nemiel's death. Thought it was an error on Thorpe's part - unless its setting up something for the next story. Way too little reaction from everyone for their primarch murdering a senior officer out of irritation. Rest of the story was cool though. Regarding the point that DAs are getting better expositions re: their key characters in short dtories than in novels; definitely do go get Grey Angel, even if you don't like audio dramas. Best portrayal of Luther bar none in the fluff to date, and more telling re his character than the two novels combined. However I disagree that Grey Angel settles the issue of Cypher's loyalty or motivations. He reaches an accomodation with Qruze, that doesn't mean that relationship becomes ongoing, or survives the destruction if Caliban, or the end of the Heresy. It doesn't mean that Cypher wanted to achieve anything beyond the Knights Errant escape with word Caliban was not aligned with Horus, possibly for reasons known only to Cypher rather than any loyalty to Malcador and the proto-Inquisition. It is an interesting clue, but proves nothing, one way or the other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3235356 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I think we deviated the thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3235374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 The difference is that our Primarch is accustomed to experiencing abject terror due to his infancy in a Deathworld, something your Primarch never knew being a silver spoon. :) I don't have a Primarch. :) But saying growing up on a Deathworld was the reason for Johnson's execution of a senior officer again points us to a contrast with Sanguinius, who grew up on a world even more bleak and desparate than even Johnson, yet both he and Horus regarded Legionaires being killed by their own as horrific. I actually like Johnson being so dark and borderline unstable. Brings the "Dark" out in the Dark Angels. The difference is that our Primarch is accustomed to experiencing abject terror due to his infancy in a Deathworld, something your Primarch never knew being a silver spoon. ;) Dont hurt the kids, they lost the poster boy pageant and they are sad now :D I found this post a little insulting, to be honest. Am I inmature and a hopeless fan boy then? Actually I want the DA to be the poster boys of 40K. Apart from the fact it would take a lot of the flakk off Ultramarines fans, it actually fits for DA to represent 40K, since they are gothic and brooding like the Imperium and humanity's existance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3235658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I found this post a little insulting, to be honest. Am I inmature and a hopeless fan boy then? Not even close. I don't know you personally, not you have given me any grounds to consider you one (or to insult you for that matter). By the same token each time some one calls the DA heretic traitors and gown wearers I should feel the same. With the term kids I was referring to the Ultramarine's (chapter) and not in an insulting way but rather a teasing one. You exajurate (spelling?) a bit. But saying growing up on a Deathworld was the reason for Johnson's execution of a senior officer again points us to a contrast with Sanguinius, who grew up on a world even more bleak and desparate than even Johnson, yet both he and Horus regarded Legionaires being killed by their own as horrific. Sanquinius was by definition the cool-headed one, wise and restrained. As far as we (I?) know there were no internal struggles withing his soul or betrayal/disorder within his own ranks that needed quelling. Plus he was raised by humans and tough human values (admittedly of a radioactive hell, but still he had human contact from the start) even in a bleak and inhospitable world. And as for Horus... Well didnt he ordered the purge of the marines voicing concearns after the destruction of Auretian Technocracy? By the time Johnson was found his psyche was already damaged / hardened to the point of no return. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3236172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Wot he said... RE: Nemial Also the circumstances of the period should be considered... The Lion has spent ages trying to read the tea leaves and discover whom is loyal to the throne and who is loyal to Horus (and questioning whether he is on the wrong side, It's human nature). When one of his "Children" puts his personal loyalty to the Lion in question, he kinda snaps and puts down the internal "rebellion" himself. The Emperor and his edicts are not there and did not envision this kind of a foe... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3236200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The Emperor and his edicts are not there and did not envision this kind of a foe... For whatever those edicts where worth. It loyalty to cause not the laws, that (I think) motivates the Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3236202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 The spirit of the law rather than the letter? I dont know that I agree with that one... The "Did it Work?" question shows more of his psyche than anything else... He is loyal, that much is beyond question but when his opponent resorts to unorthidox and proscribed tactics, the Lion then authorizes proscribed tactics back. "The end justitifies the means" fits more to me and cements in my mind that our primarch is a badass on a Dirty Harry kind of level. Edit: And also goes a way to explaining how we have fought "The Rout" to a standstill more than once despite their chapter being "the executioners" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3236209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Actually we are saying the same thing from a different POV i think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265352-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-3236228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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