Were Leman Russ and Magnus friends?

[maverike_prime]

So I was reading "A Thousand Sons" and the scene where Russ and Magnus first appear together suddenly got my brain rolling about something I had never thought about before. Were Russ and Magnus friends? I know they were brothers. both being Primarchs and all, but just being Primarchs doesn't make them Friends. Lorgar/Angeron and Dorn/Kruze are both examples of that. And as far back and I can recall the Thousands and Space Wolves have been bitter enemies, the Space Wolves hating the Thousand Sons because they betrayed the Emperor's decree about magic and sorcery, while the Thousand Sons hating the Space Wolves for the raising of Prospero. There no argument on that.

 

But when Magnus and Russ meet up in the boot, there is a very... motivated exchange of insults that is delivered with a very friendly background to it. Almost like how the Stereotypical Viking characters would enter a bar, shout insults at one another to make most people think they were about to kill each other only for them to sit down at the same table and start buying one another drinks and conversing in a manner that only too good friends really could.

 

Now, here's why I ask: There is nothing else I've encountered to support the idea that Russ and Magnus were actually friends. Yes they were both Primarchs. Yes they both fought in the Great Crusade. Yes they worked together. But that doesn't mean they were actually friends. I regularly work along side people I truely dislike but I don't allow it to interfere with my job.

 

But when I look at the entire schism that started with Nikea and culminated with the Raising with Prospero in the light that Russ and Magnus were actually friends, these events take on a new life as now it's not just one commander being sent to bring an AWOL commander in. It's friends following their duty over their friendship, which personally I think adds a considerably resonance to events in question.

 

So, can anyone point out something beyond what I've already mentioned to put an answer to the question one way or another?

[Grimtooth]

Well, they were united in a cause, ie, the Great Crusade and technically they were brothers. We are given much more insight into any interactions that they had before so that is left blank for us.

 

However, when you think about the first interaction we do have regarding the SW Legion and the Thousand Sons, it is the Skarls Great Company being sent to tell the Thousand Sons to get off their butts and get to the Ark Reach Cluster to help bring the bird people into compliance. At that time we see that Wyrmdrake is already in investigating mode to get the dirt on the Thousand Sons via a false friendship with Ahiriman. It is also of note that Russ was among those that never supported Magnus and the Librarius Program.

 

So while both united in the Great Crusade and technically related by blood, it seems that the schism might have originally started with the creation of the Librarius program, came to a head at the bird people planet, which culminated with the Council of Nikea.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

No, i dont believe they were friends.

 

I do believe that they had a professional respect for one another, that was shattered on the bridge on Shrike.

 

i always saw it as two rivals, using vastly different means to achieve the same goals. as long as they have a common goal to focus on, they can be civil with each other. when that is removed, then the hositilies emerge.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest Maverick, I think the fact that Russ not wanting to originally kill Magnus might have something to do that. Like in Prospero Burns, it seemed like the Space Wolves were looking for every excuse in the book not to kill the KSons. Your idea might have something to do with it. IT sort of makes sense and adds an extra element to both the tension between the two Legions and the tragedy of Prospero. And why Russ would just plunge into the Eye to chase down Magnus. It could be that Russ views Magnus as a true brother who betrayed him and the All-Father. I actually kind of like it. But I think that if this idea is true, it was they started out as they first met, probably with some sort of relationship in which Russ thought of Magnus both as a brother jarl but as a Rune Priest. But then somewhere along the line, they started to grow distant, probably when Russ started discovering more about Magnus' views on the warp. To Russ with his belief that the power of psykers should only come from somewhere "pure", someone who knows and acknowledges the fact that the warp is the source of power, would be anathema to him and that is probably were they started to grow apart. When Wyrdmaker ran into Ahriman while warp-walking, Wyrdmaker at first saw a kindred spirit. It wasn't until later on when he learned more about the KSons and the much larger plethora of powers that they used that Wyrdmaker turned into an enemy who, like his primarch before him, believed that the Rune Priests wielded a more pure form of power while the Thousand Sons were tainted by their acknowledgement of using the warp.

 

The whole situation was probably something that, while starting good, kept getting worse and worse before reaching a boiling point at Shrike that resulted in the Council of Nikea banning psychic powers. After that, well the Wolves were ordered to Prospero to apprehend Magnus and eventually the "apprehending" turned to executing with some manipulation by Chaos.

[Biaz]

I really like this idea, ads a bit of depth to their relationship. But when I think of Thousand Sons the first qoute that comes to mind is when Russ intentionally ignores Magnus' orders to leave the library undamaged, and before they engage the Space Wolves, Ahriman says something like, "My Lord, he will never forgive you."

To which Magnus replies, "I don't need his forgiveness, but I'll have his damn respect!"

 

Magnus doesn't seem to think there's any respect between the two of them, and there never really seems to be much love lost. I think Russ just always hated, or disliked Magnus, the the sacking of Prospero was merely a chance to vent his disgust and contempt. His attempts to get the Son's surrender always seemed half-assed to me.

[jeffersonian000]

We'll never know if they were truly friends, but we already know they were brothers. : )

 

SJ

[Chaplain ChonkE]

That scene read very differently for me! I took away the rough sparring and verbal jousting to be aggressive posturing and threatening bravado. Two alphas sniffing each other's rear ends and then baring their teeth so to speak. I have some friends (I am sure you do too Maverick) who I cut rough with and make some comments that are dismissive, threatening, insulting to their/your mother and other playful jabs all in the name of friendship and fun. It brings you closer together in a sense.

 

Now have that same exact conversation with a rival; someone you do not trust, who does not see eye-to-eye in your world view, who is different in every way, shape and form, whose opposite conducts the shared business of war in a way you would consider stupid. Those rough jabs and cuts take on a very different tone and usually violence in just underneath the surface. That is how I saw that exchange. If those two were not brothers in shared origin, creation and goals that meeting would certainly have come to blows at that moment.

[Dammeron]

I think what you have in the relationship between Magnus and Russ is a classic antipodean scale; the two are opposites in almost every respect, to the point whereby they are almost as alien to one another as would be the Eldar to the Orks. Magnus is a scholar first and foremost; he is one of the few Primarchs who has more going for him than the enhanced ability to beat things to death, and who might potentially have had some place and position in the Imperium after the fighting was done. Russ, on the other hand, is a tribal king of a very, very old tradition; one that steeps itself in conservatism, traditions of loyalty, honour and adherence to the dictates of authority. Magnus not only wants to be more than the parameters of his creation dictate; he wants everything to be more; to initiate a kind of controlled, metaphysical evolution for humanity in which the parameters of what it is to be human are transgressed. Russ, by comparison, is much more conservative; he wants to protect what is; to serve in his allotted function as the Emperor's hound and executioner. Both are extremely flawed entities who make some truly profound mistakes; both are utterly incapable of seeing their own flaws (be it Magnus's overwhelming ego or Russ's hypocrisy in allowing and employing sorcery in his own legion, so long as it comes with different labels and tassels but condemning it in others), both pay profound prices for it.

 

As to whom you most sympathize with largely depends on your own preconceptions and where you stand: A Thousand Sons paints a very different picture of events from Prospero Burns: in the former, the Thousand Sons are ultimately loyal, even noble in their intentions, but misguided; the Space Wolves bellicose, barbaric idiots who take any opportunity to initiate violence. In the latter, the Thousand Sons are arrogant, treacherous corruptors and manipulators, blinded by their own pride and ego, whereas the Space Wolves are noble savages, profoundly considered regardless of their outward tribalism, and philosophically astute, despite their savagery.

 

For my money, I'm more inclined to side with Magnus and the Thousand Sons, simply because I find their philosophy and intentions to be more legitimate than those of Russ and his Space Wolves.

 

I doubt they were ever friends, or ever could be; rather, they were simply allies of convenience, and would've likely scuffled once or twice even were it not for the Thousand Sons fall from grace.

[Epistolary Exander]

I thought Russ's attempts to parley with Magnus and his sons were motivated by the desire to not see anymore of the Emperor's sons killed and wiped from exsistance, for which Russ knew the SW would try do to the 1K sons if they were slipped from their leashes. This does seem to fit in with the wider fear the Primarchs expressed of loosing more of their number and/or to be the third one lost. Aswel as the SW trait to use everthing possible to subdue an enemy to the point beyond ruin.

[Kol Saresk]

As one BL author pointed out, we don't know what happened to the other two Legions. Their Primarchs might be locked up in the Phantom Zone for all we know. And it has never been directly confirmed by an unbiased observer that the Wolves are indeed the Emperor's executioners. It was a comment made by a Long Fang in front of an individual the Wolves believed to be a spy. And the only other comment that has been made is "The Wolves are being unleashed again." No one knows what the other time was. Or if there was even more than one. We just assume that it meant the Wolves had been sent against another Legion. For all we know, the Night Lords went first, then the World Eaters and then the Space Wolves. There just isn't enough information to create a definite solution.

[spu00sed]

I got the feeling hat there was some firm of relationship between them.

 

Even if it was based n he idea that each one thought they were right and the other was wrong.

 

Like prominent scientists arguing over who has the right theory, just like farnsworth and wormstrong

[KarkassBC]

I thought Russ's attempts to parley with Magnus and his sons were motivated by the desire to not see anymore of the Emperor's sons killed and wiped from exsistance, for which Russ knew the SW would try do to the 1K sons if they were slipped from their leashes. This does seem to fit in with the wider fear the Primarchs expressed of loosing more of their number and/or to be the third one lost. Aswel as the SW trait to use everthing possible to subdue an enemy to the point beyond ruin.

 

Russ and Magnus disliked each other very deeply. So it's a very strange decision for the Emperor to send the most hated person to another for giving a summon...

 

There is another thread in which there are some question about the "strange" attemps to parley decided by Russ, in which many thought Russ decisions were made only to cover the act to parley from the Imperial Custodes. So this point is still under doubt.

 

But I'm sure I will read something more when Russ and the Space Wolves will hear the betrayal of Horus. Every SW onboard the Hrafnel know about the psychic warning of Magnus... so I wonder what they will say when they know the news (from Terra or from Ultramar), because the Thousand Sons come back on the Chaos side only during the Siege of the Imperial Palace...

[Baluc]

The people you love dearest are the only ones who can hurt you dearly. I think Russ more than any other of the Primarchs knows what it means to be a brother.

 

Those of you with siblings, would you tell your parents if you siblings something dangerous? Especially if your Parent was the person you respected most in the world? Would you do it because you hate your sibling? No if you hated them you'd leave them to their own devices and wait for the I told you so moment as they lay in a gutter.

[KarkassBC]

The people you love dearest are the only ones who can hurt you dearly. I think Russ more than any other of the Primarchs knows what it means to be a brother.

 

Those of you with siblings, would you tell your parents if you siblings something dangerous? Especially if your Parent was the person you respected most in the world? Would you do it because you hate your sibling? No if you hated them you'd leave them to their own devices and wait for the I told you so moment as they lay in a gutter.

 

Russ has done more than explaining a possible problem. In the new WH40k history there is a line in "A Thousand Sons" after the Compliance of Shrike, when Mortarion and Magnus meet during the Ullanor Triumph:

...Mortarion shook his head and said, “Truly you are as lost in your mysteries as the Wolf King says.”

“You have spoken with Russ?”

“Many times,” promised Mortarion. “He has been quite vocal since departing the Ark Reach Cluster. We know all about what you and your warriors have been doing.”

...“No wonder Russ petitioned the Emperor to have you censured,” he said.

 

Only thanks to representatives of other Legions, like neutral witnesses, the punishment of the Thousand Sons was less than expected. But the main topic is still on... if you want to save your brother you don't organise a complete inquisitorial trial.

[Rain]

A Thousand Sons makes it fairly clear that Russ and Magnus didn't like each other. A rune priest basically befriends Ahriman just to get dirt on him and then reports it to Russ who tells daddy who calls the Council of Nikea at which said rune priest testifies. They also almost come to blows when the Space Wolves try to destroy a library that the 1k Sons want to study and it's it's basically laid out that Russ hates Magnus and Magnus thinks Russ is a mindless barbarian.

[Kol Saresk]

A Thousand Sons makes it fairly clear that Russ and Magnus didn't like each other. A rune priest basically befriends Ahriman just to get dirt on him and then reports it to Russ who tells daddy who calls the Council of Nikea at which said rune priest testifies. They also almost come to blows when the Space Wolves try to destroy a library that the 1k Sons want to study and it's it's basically laid out that Russ hates Magnus and Magnus thinks Russ is a mindless barbarian.

At that point in time. We know nothing of what was going on between them before the events in A Thousand Son, which I think start out as the earliest in the timeline of the Heresy series. So at one point in time, they might have had a decent relationship and then somewhere along the line, it went to crap and turned into what we saw there.

[Rain]

I...guess. It just seems very unlikely. I mean Russ sends his cohort to the 1k Sons expedition at the very beginning of the book to basically spy on them so he was already at least suspicious well before the heresy proper. And honestly given how different they are and how superstitious Russ is about the whole sorcery thing I really really doubt that they were ever friends. I mean sure you can say "well you can't prove that they weren't" and that's fine but there's no narrative or thematic evidence to suggest that they were. Horus and Sanguinius for example were friends that ended up enemies, as were Fulgrim and Ferrus, but as far as anyone can tell Magnus and Russ always hated each other.

[dustermaker]

I personally don't believe they were friends. If Russ was friends with anyone I would say he was friends with the Lion. They started out as bitter rivals, but they grew to respect and trust eachother through the Crusade.

[Kol Saresk]

I personally don't believe they were friends. If Russ was friends with anyone I would say he was friends with the Lion. They started out as bitter rivals, but they grew to respect and trust eachother through the Crusade.

Except that "even to this day", their descendants are more than willing to kill each other. I think the moral of the story is that by the time of the Heresy series, very few people liked Russ and wasn't because of the supposed "executioner" status, it was because no one truly liked him.

 

@Rain: Fair enough. Earlier back I had an idea that may or may not have worked. Don't know. Won't know until GW, BL, or FW publish an official thing for it. Basically, when they first met, it is possible that Russ could have mistook Magnus as a Rune Priest. But as he learned more about Magnus and his way of thinking, it is possible that could have been the part where it all went wrong. Or Russ had a similar experience with him as he did with the Lion well before the events in A Thousand Sons.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Khorne and Slaanesh being best friends once upon a time is more likely.

[daveNYC]

I personally don't believe they were friends. If Russ was friends with anyone I would say he was friends with the Lion. They started out as bitter rivals, but they grew to respect and trust eachother through the Crusade.

 

I'm pretty sure that they weren't friends because the Lion doesn't have friends. I'd go so far as to say that the Lion doen't even really grasp the concept of friendship.

 

And Russ and Magnus are oil and water.

[Kol Saresk]

I personally don't believe they were friends. If Russ was friends with anyone I would say he was friends with the Lion. They started out as bitter rivals, but they grew to respect and trust eachother through the Crusade.

 

I'm pretty sure that they weren't friends because the Lion doesn't have friends. I'd go so far as to say that the Lion doen't even really grasp the concept of friendship.

 

And Russ and Magnus are oil and water.

Vegetable oil and water are great for cooking beans and rice. :D

[Ubermensch Commander]

According to the fluff as written now, no. VEHEMENTLY no.

They were never friends and very much opposite ends of the spectrum.

Nor were Kurze and Dorn actually having a friendly Primarch pillow fight that got out of hand and the whole "trying to kill Dorn" thing simply a big misunderstanding.

Angron though...he just wanted to hug everyone he met. Not his fault they kept exploding like ketchup packets.

[Billuriye]

I'm pretty sure that they weren't friends because the Lion doesn't have friends. I'd go so far as to say that the Lion doen't even really grasp the concept of friendship.

 

Well it may be not buddy cop action bromance going on, but Lion probably appreciates Russ as a person.

[Kol Saresk]

I'm pretty sure that they weren't friends because the Lion doesn't have friends. I'd go so far as to say that the Lion doen't even really grasp the concept of friendship.

 

Well it may be not buddy cop action bromance going on, but Lion probably appreciates Russ as a person.

The Lion does have friends, they just happen to be members of his Legion that he likes and are not named Nemiel. As far as appreciating Russ as a person... Well i think there was a reason he knocked him out and I don't that was it.