Were Leman Russ and Magnus friends?

[DarthMarko]

I'm pretty sure that they weren't friends because the Lion doesn't have friends. I'd go so far as to say that the Lion doen't even really grasp the concept of friendship.

 

Well it may be not buddy cop action bromance going on, but Lion probably appreciates Russ as a person.

The Lion does have friends, they just happen to be members of his Legion that he likes and are not named Nemiel. As far as appreciating Russ as a person... Well i think there was a reason he knocked him out and I don't that was it.

Because he doesn't like when people stop fighting and start smiling...

[Conn Eremon]

What little of the camaraderie that I saw felt forced to me. Like two politicians of either extreme smiling and shaking hands. They were the sons of the Emperor, his larger than life generals. It was two people who hate each other masking their insults in a thinly spread veneer of brotherhood. What misgivings either Primarch showed at their treatment of the other never seemed to stem from who they were to each other, but what they were to humanity.

[Grimtooth]

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

[Billuriye]

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Do we even know who was discovered first? If Magnus preceded Russ, that statement is void.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

 

Well, as your not Russ, just a (intense) fan, you dont know his personal opinions

 

Evidence suggests that Russ was on no list to destroy a fellow Legion. When the Emperor was feeling out the Primarchs on the Lorgar issue, Russ supported his brother saying something like he lost enough brothers already. When Russ was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons, something you claimed he wanted to do, he actually gave Magnus the chance to come along peacefully.

 

(speculation) I believe Russ would be more understanding of a Marine suffering from the flesh change, as his legion is afflicted by it as well.

 

Russ wasnt the only Primarch opposed to Magnus's practices. Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Does Corax want to destroy Magnus as well in your eyes?

 

the only thing I can agree with you is that Shrike was the icing on the cake. after that, Russ went from being concerned with the Thousand Sons and the methods of war, to outright alarmed.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

WLK, now that you put it in that light, I think I just came up with some more speculation. Since Russ might have been more understanding of the Flesh-Change due to the Wulfen, it's possible his contention with Magnus was something along the lines of "This almost destroyed your Legion once, why are you running back to it?" As far as I know, the Space Wolves were doing everything they could to control the Wulfen just as the Blood Angels were doing everything they could to control the Red Thirst. It is possible that to Russ, it didn't look like Magnus was doing anything to prevent the Flesh-Change and instead was in a headlong collision course with a repetition of history and that by getting psychic powers amongst the Astartes banned, Magnus would stop playing with the warp and the disaster would be averted.

[DarthMarko]

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

 

Well, as your not Russ, just a (intense) fan, you dont know his personal opinions

 

Evidence suggests that Russ was on no list to destroy a fellow Legion. When the Emperor was feeling out the Primarchs on the Lorgar issue, Russ supported his brother saying something like he lost enough brothers already. When Russ was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons, something you claimed he wanted to do, he actually gave Magnus the chance to come along peacefully.

 

(speculation) I believe Russ would be more understanding of a Marine suffering from the flesh change, as his legion is afflicted by it as well.

 

Russ wasnt the only Primarch opposed to Magnus's practices. Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Does Corax want to destroy Magnus as well in your eyes?

 

the only thing I can agree with you is that Shrike was the icing on the cake. after that, Russ went from being concerned with the Thousand Sons and the methods of war, to outright alarmed.

 

WLK

Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons ? Source...ty

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

[KarkassBC]

Going again in the matter.

 

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

 

Well, as your not Russ, just a (intense) fan, you dont know his personal opinions

 

Evidence suggests that Russ was on no list to destroy a fellow Legion. When the Emperor was feeling out the Primarchs on the Lorgar issue, Russ supported his brother saying something like he lost enough brothers already. When Russ was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons, something you claimed he wanted to do, he actually gave Magnus the chance to come along peacefully.

 

(speculation) I believe Russ would be more understanding of a Marine suffering from the flesh change, as his legion is afflicted by it as well.

 

Russ wasnt the only Primarch opposed to Magnus's practices. Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Does Corax want to destroy Magnus as well in your eyes?

 

the only thing I can agree with you is that Shrike was the icing on the cake. after that, Russ went from being concerned with the Thousand Sons and the methods of war, to outright alarmed.

 

WLK

 

Flesh Change. No one said this is the adverse effect of psyker use. Maybe someone thougth about it, but the Flesh Curse appeared before the coming of Magnus and the use of the psychic powers (at least from the Thousand Sons prospective). In the past without Magnus the Legion suffered more the curse. So one case after many years cannot be used as a proof.

 

Peace request. Through a person? Speaking loud in front of someone and thinking other are listening? The Primarch of the First Legion made a serious and clear peace request and the fighting stopped (maybe with some more pressure on the Death Guards). If he wanted peace he would have done more steps and not through an uncertain mode of communication.

Moreover if someone saw no one attack his fleet in orbit he can send again a message to be sure they have accepted the conditions.

 

Corax. Did he said the reason? Where? Maybe he used a warfare method unsuitable for allies. Maybe he simply disliked Magnus and his Sons.

For the same reason we can say Perturabo and his Imperial Warriors disliked to fight alongside the Imperial Fists. Other said the didn't like to fight alonside the Night Warriors.

 

Shrike. Russ went in the angry mode not during the fighting when the Thousand Sons opened the path for his warriors but when Amlodhi Skarseen was keep outside the Great Library and prevented from achieving the important task of destroy it.

[KarkassBC]

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

 

Attacking someone it's not the best way to know its loyalties. A great sentence is always true "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 

Unfortunately for Russ, Magnus was right about the treachery of Horus... He said nothing later about it or blamed Magnus.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons ? Source...ty

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

 

I'm having trouble finding that source. What I can find says that Corax fueded with Horus and removed his Legion from Horus's command (Index Astartes RG), and that Corax went to the Emperor about who Mortarion was loyal to (Index Astartes DG), but neither helps here.

 

Whats bugging me about this is that I know I read it, because it mentions both the RG and the IF, who are both popular Chapters in my gaming circle. When i find it i will post it.

 

WLK

[Billuriye]

It's on Collected Visions.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It's on Collected Visions.

 

Aha! Thanks. I knew i read it, but my copy is making its rounds through the community and I couldnt check it.

 

WLK

[DarthMarko]

Going again in the matter.

 

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

 

Well, as your not Russ, just a (intense) fan, you dont know his personal opinions

 

Evidence suggests that Russ was on no list to destroy a fellow Legion. When the Emperor was feeling out the Primarchs on the Lorgar issue, Russ supported his brother saying something like he lost enough brothers already. When Russ was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons, something you claimed he wanted to do, he actually gave Magnus the chance to come along peacefully.

 

(speculation) I believe Russ would be more understanding of a Marine suffering from the flesh change, as his legion is afflicted by it as well.

 

Russ wasnt the only Primarch opposed to Magnus's practices. Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Does Corax want to destroy Magnus as well in your eyes?

 

the only thing I can agree with you is that Shrike was the icing on the cake. after that, Russ went from being concerned with the Thousand Sons and the methods of war, to outright alarmed.

 

WLK

 

Flesh Change. No one said this is the adverse effect of psyker use. Maybe someone thougth about it, but the Flesh Curse appeared before the coming of Magnus and the use of the psychic powers (at least from the Thousand Sons prospective). In the past without Magnus the Legion suffered more the curse. So one case after many years cannot be used as a proof.

 

Peace request. Through a person? Speaking loud in front of someone and thinking other are listening? The Primarch of the First Legion made a serious and clear peace request and the fighting stopped (maybe with some more pressure on the Death Guards). If he wanted peace he would have done more steps and not through an uncertain mode of communication.

Moreover if someone saw no one attack his fleet in orbit he can send again a message to be sure they have accepted the conditions.

 

Corax. Did he said the reason? Where? Maybe he used a warfare method unsuitable for allies. Maybe he simply disliked Magnus and his Sons.

For the same reason we can say Perturabo and his Imperial Warriors disliked to fight alongside the Imperial Fists. Other said the didn't like to fight alonside the Night Warriors.

 

Shrike. Russ went in the angry mode not during the fighting when the Thousand Sons opened the path for his warriors but when Amlodhi Skarseen was keep outside the Great Library and prevented from achieving the important task of destroy it.

 

Yet, no matter how hard choice it was, it's still a choice...Magnus could stay loyal and stay true to his word about sacrifice ,then I would probably hate wolves,and pity the TS who would then be true martyrs..

Now facts stay : Did he sold his arse to Tzeench (or choose self-preservation over IoM and the Emp) yes

Did he sided with Horus (you know,the guy who is most guilty for TS downfall next to Magnus) ? yes

Would Dorn,Russ,Corax,Sanguinius and Guiliman do what Magnus did when they had to face the music ? Hell no - they would rather die and that's why they are loyalist and Magnus is traitor...

 

.

[Conn Eremon]

Would Dorn,Russ,Corax,Sanguinius and Guiliman do what Magnus did when they had to face the music ? Hell no - they would rather die and that's why they are loyalist and Magnus is traitor...

 

That is speculation on your part, though. We only know how Magnus would react in that situation because he was the only one in that situation, because he was the only one who has ever experienced anything like that. No other Primarch has had to make a decision like Magnus had, to choose to live as traitors or die as loyalists when under assault from a loyalist Legion while being loyal yourself. The only other loyal Legions to be attacked by loyalists are the Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders, but in that situation those assaulting them, by the very act of assaulting them in that circumstance, were clearly no longer loyalists and were traitors. In that circumstance, fighting back was justified because they had made themselves an enemy. Magnus is the only one to choose to fight to the death against an ally in order to survive, the only who had to make that decision one way or another.

 

I wouldn't be so sure that other Primarchs wouldn't come to a similar decision. Magnus clearly loved the Emperor and was in no way a traitor before he felt forced into becoming one. He was no different from any of those other Primarchs mentioned in terms of loyalty and devotion. Put any other Primarch in his shoes and you might have the same conclusion.

[Kol Saresk]

Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons ? Source...ty

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

If the roles were 100% reversed, Russ would have been the Primarch who made a Faustian deal with Tzeentch to get rid of the Flesh Change. He also would have also been 1/3 responsible for the spread of the Librarius program through the Legions. He also would have been the Primarch of the Thousand Sons and had his broken by Magnus at the Razing of Prospero. Any deviation would not have been a reversal of roles, but switching of positions.

[DarthMarko]

Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons ? Source...ty

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

If the roles were 100% reversed, Russ would have been the Primarch who made a Faustian deal with Tzeentch to get rid of the Flesh Change. He also would have also been 1/3 responsible for the spread of the Librarius program through the Legions. He also would have been the Primarch of the Thousand Sons and had his broken by Magnus at the Razing of Prospero. Any deviation would not have been a reversal of roles, but switching of positions.

No - first we are talking about different personalities - completely, second - Horus said, some of his brothers would never turn from the light of the Emperor (I consider Russ as one of them ) -that's why SW haters call SW dogs and too damn loyal,btw even Khârn mocks them for their loyalty because they would do anything for the Emp), third - we are talking hypoteticaly "when put to ultimate test" and not complete change of roles like you said...

 

and @Cormac,how the hell can someone force you into breaking something which is sacred to you...I'mean he didn't have to attack Terra, he didn't have to join Horus....

[DarthMarko]

Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons ? Source...ty

And damn me if Russ wasn't right about Magnus from the start...if it was vice-versa situation and Russ was defending on Prospero.he would 100% go and die,rather then succumb to Tzeench...

If the roles were 100% reversed, Russ would have been the Primarch who made a Faustian deal with Tzeentch to get rid of the Flesh Change. He also would have also been 1/3 responsible for the spread of the Librarius program through the Legions. He also would have been the Primarch of the Thousand Sons and had his broken by Magnus at the Razing of Prospero. Any deviation would not have been a reversal of roles, but switching of positions.

No - first we are talking about different personalities - completely, second - Horus said, some of his brothers would never turn from the light of the Emperor (I consider Russ as one of them ) -that's why SW haters call SW dogs and too damn loyal,btw even Khârn mocks them for their loyalty because they would do anything for the Emp), third - we are talking hypoteticaly "when put to ultimate test" and not complete change of roles like you said...

 

and @Cormac,how the hell can someone force you into breaking something which is sacred to you...I'mean he didn't have to attack Terra, he didn't have to join Horus (again - mastermind behind everything )....

Sorry about DP - fething browser

[Kol Saresk]

But you are working on the assumption that if Russ had been in the exact same position Magnus had been in, the same experiences and the same choices made, the Magnusite Russ would have had the same personality as the mainstream Russ. There is no guarantee both Russes would have had the same personalities when both would have had different lives.

[DarthMarko]

But you are working on the assumption that if Russ had been in the exact same position Magnus had been in, the same experiences and the same choices made, the Magnusite Russ would have had the same personality as the mainstream Russ. There is no guarantee both Russes would have had the same personalities when both would have had different lives.

All I'm saying is that Russ woudn't go Magnus way and if tested on the same level wouldn't make "traitor choice"- I'm certain on that...It would be completely different scenario (from the start)...

[DarthMarko]

But you are working on the assumption that if Russ had been in the exact same position Magnus had been in, the same experiences and the same choices made, the Magnusite Russ would have had the same personality as the mainstream Russ. There is no guarantee both Russes would have had the same personalities when both would have had different lives.

All I'm saying is that Russ woudn't go Magnus way and if tested on the same level wouldn't make "traitor choice"- I'm certain on that...It would be completely different scenario (from the start)...

Anyway, that's like just my opinion...

[Kol Saresk]

If we took the mainstream Russ, and put him in Magnus's shoes, you would most likely be totally right. But that woul just be a switching of positions. To me at least, a switching of roles is when you take two different people, erase their lives and then make them live the exact life of the other. The alternate Russ would live the life of the mainstream Magnus and vice versa with no influence from their respective mainstream lives. That would result in an alternate Russ who would have few if any similarities with the mainstream Russ and the same thing with the Magnuses. That's all I'm saying.

[Conn Eremon]

and @Cormac,how the hell can someone force you into breaking something which is sacred to you...I'mean he didn't have to attack Terra, he didn't have to join Horus....

 

But it was all part of the deal that he felt forced into making. Ignorance made him think it was an okay decision at first, to save his sons from the Flesh Change. The assault on Prospero forced him to make a further decision, either die loyal or live as a traitor. He didn't want to be in that situation, did not want to choose to live as a traitor. With his sons dying around him from a Legion he felt was as dangerous an ally as any traitor legion, he was forced to make a decision. The decision he made was of his own choice, but the fact that he had to decide was forced upon him. And Chaos is a slippery slope. Once he made the decision forced upon him, he could no longer back out. It'd be pointless and he'd be back at square one. The only road available to him following that fateful choice was to back Horus and invade Terra. Maybe not invade Terra, but definitely join Horus' side.

 

If we're talking about personalities, though, Leman Russ would have fought back if the situation was reversed. That's who he is. Based off of his personality, he would never back down, never sacrifice himself and his Legion without baring his teeth. Period. In fact, he would never hesitate as Magnus did. He would lament the situation, definitely. But he wouldn't hesitate to strike back at a loyalist Legion attacking him in the belief that he is disloyal or corrupted. And if Tzeentch had placed as much focus on the Space Wolves as he did with the Thousand Sons, it would likely have fallen that way. Russ wouldn't even have to declare for Tzeentch. Tzeentch's attentions could increase the potential to degenerate into the Wulfen. The more Wulfen, the more likely it is to get out and be public knowledge. Suddenly the Space Wolves are seen as bad as the Thousand Sons are with their psykercraft and Flesh Change. The Emperor asks for Russ to answer for this, as he does for Magnus. Horus twists the message to bring them to task for it. Suddenly it's the Burning of Fenris. As stated earlier, Russ would never hesitate. He'd strike back immediately. He doesn't have to declare for Tzeentch, he just has to fight back. Once he has, he's gone. There's no turning back, no returning to being loyal. Hell, Russ' loyalties would make it more likely for him to attack. Because he's damn loyal and this other Legion must not be as loyal, though it could very well be. They wouldn't even see defending themselves as an act of betrayal. Magnus did better in this situation than Russ would have, because at least he hesitates and understands the gravity of his decision.

[Kol Saresk]

The problem is, if Russ had lived Magnus' life, can we truly say he would have had the same personality? What you are, may be determined by genetics. But who you are, is up to you and how you react to the environment around you. Yes, two people can grow up in similar, or same, circumstances and be as different as night and day. But when you take someone from different circumstances, and put them into someone's circumstances and expose them to the same thing, there is no guarantee they will come out the same way.

 

So to me, simply saying "Oh Russ would never do that if he had grown up as Magnus had." is wrong, to me at least, because we don't know. If he had grown up in Magnus' life, he might have turned into Horus. Or maybe even Lorgar. As Magnus was the only recorded Primarch who had any genuine idea about the nature of the warp before the Emperor came along and was playing with it long before as well, he had experiences no other Primarch shared in for the longest time. He knew that he had rewritten "fate" when he took the lifestrands of his sons from Tzeentch and struck a deal. But like Felix Faust before him, he actually never expected the Devil to come knocking. And Tzeentch just happened to pick the right moment to offer Magnus a lifeline when Magnus realized that he was the reason his sons were dying. The only way to save his sons, his Legion, was to take the deal.

 

We don't know what Russ would do if the roles were truly, 100% reversed. If Russ had been dropped on Prospero and experienced the same things Magnus had experienced, we cannot truly say that he would have acted like the Russ who grew up on Fenris.

[Dammeron]

The core problem we're facing here seems to lie in the markedly redundant assumption that there is some absolute, incorruptible core of "personality" that stays constant regardless of circumstance or experience. This is, of course, fallacious on a number of levels; the state of consciousness and the ephemeral construct of personality shifts and changes in direct response to circumstance and external stimuli; it is not an absolute thing, rather a protean state informed by various different factors, including genetics, environment and, in the case of the Primarchs, the intentions of their creator and manipulators.

 

Look at it this way: were Magnus the Primarch to crash into the ice of Fenris, and Russ the one to plummet into the crystal cities of Prospero, the two would inevitably be very different entities from how they manifest in 40K "canon" (whatever the hell that means). Also, the legions they eventually sired would be markedly removed from how they are portrayed in the standard lore.

 

If raised amongst the sorcery and academia of Prospero, what would Russ have become? And what might those influences have resulted in, given the potential for mutation in his gene seed? Similarly, if Magnus were forced to fend for himself in the wilds of Fenris, eventually coming to be raised by its tribal warrior peoples, how different an entity would he be, even given his genetically ingrained proclivities?

 

Proclaiming "Russ would never...," "Magnus inevitably..." is utterly redundant, given that the only entities experiencing the circumstances that inform their decisions, natures and personalities are the individuals in question: Magnus is as much a product of circumstance as Russ himself is.

[Dammeron]

Taking it further, what if Lorgar were the one forced to scavenge in the diseased Hell of Nostramo's cities, and Konrad Kurze the one to be tutored in the metaphysical traditions of Colchis? Would they still be the Aurelian and Night Haunter respectively? I seriously doubt it. Even though their genetically ingrained proclivities would have inclined them to respond to circumstances differently, those circumstances would still exist, and inform their behaviours and the philosophies that eventually result in notable ways.