Were Leman Russ and Magnus friends?

[KarkassBC]

Going again in the matter.

 

I am going to say this; Russ was never friends with Magnus.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of people calling for the destruction of the Legion, prior to being reunited with Magnus, when they were all suffering from psychic mutations.

 

Russ was probably high on the list of those suspicious of Magnus "curing" the flesh change.

 

Russ WAS high on the list opposed to Magnus' vision for the Librarius Program.

 

Russ sent Wyrmdrake to befriend Ahiriman specifically to gather evidence against them.

 

What happened on Shrike was just the proverbial icing on the cake.

 

Well, as your not Russ, just a (intense) fan, you dont know his personal opinions

 

Evidence suggests that Russ was on no list to destroy a fellow Legion. When the Emperor was feeling out the Primarchs on the Lorgar issue, Russ supported his brother saying something like he lost enough brothers already. When Russ was ordered to destroy the Thousand Sons, something you claimed he wanted to do, he actually gave Magnus the chance to come along peacefully.

 

(speculation) I believe Russ would be more understanding of a Marine suffering from the flesh change, as his legion is afflicted by it as well.

 

Russ wasnt the only Primarch opposed to Magnus's practices. Corax refused to fight alongside the Thousand Sons. Does Corax want to destroy Magnus as well in your eyes?

 

the only thing I can agree with you is that Shrike was the icing on the cake. after that, Russ went from being concerned with the Thousand Sons and the methods of war, to outright alarmed.

 

WLK

 

Flesh Change. No one said this is the adverse effect of psyker use. Maybe someone thougth about it, but the Flesh Curse appeared before the coming of Magnus and the use of the psychic powers (at least from the Thousand Sons prospective). In the past without Magnus the Legion suffered more the curse. So one case after many years cannot be used as a proof.

 

Peace request. Through a person? Speaking loud in front of someone and thinking other are listening? The Primarch of the First Legion made a serious and clear peace request and the fighting stopped (maybe with some more pressure on the Death Guards). If he wanted peace he would have done more steps and not through an uncertain mode of communication.

Moreover if someone saw no one attack his fleet in orbit he can send again a message to be sure they have accepted the conditions.

 

Corax. Did he said the reason? Where? Maybe he used a warfare method unsuitable for allies. Maybe he simply disliked Magnus and his Sons.

For the same reason we can say Perturabo and his Imperial Warriors disliked to fight alongside the Imperial Fists. Other said the didn't like to fight alonside the Night Warriors.

 

Shrike. Russ went in the angry mode not during the fighting when the Thousand Sons opened the path for his warriors but when Amlodhi Skarseen was keep outside the Great Library and prevented from achieving the important task of destroy it.

 

Yet, no matter how hard choice it was, it's still a choice...Magnus could stay loyal and stay true to his word about sacrifice ,then I would probably hate wolves,and pity the TS who would then be true martyrs..

Now facts stay : Did he sold his arse to Tzeench (or choose self-preservation over IoM and the Emp) yes

Did he sided with Horus (you know,the guy who is most guilty for TS downfall next to Magnus) ? yes

Would Dorn,Russ,Corax,Sanguinius and Guiliman do what Magnus did when they had to face the music ? Hell no - they would rather die and that's why they are loyalist and Magnus is traitor...

 

.

 

Sincerely when you are backed in a corner you don't have too many options to choose. In that moment no one can blame a person for his decisions. It's the basic of "self-defence rule"... you are not guilty of killing/harming someone attacking you (except you overreact on the perceived threat)

 

As Comarc has perfectly explained the main difference was Russ, in the adverse position, would have ordered the defence fire for first.

 

Sanguinis

again was on the brink of shift to the traitor side. In Fear to Tread the plot of Chaos was sabotaged by Horus himself for his jealosy and to avoid a possible adversary as a Champion for Chaos

.

 

Corax probably would have accepted any help to recreate very fastly his Legion. Even with good intention, he would have accepted external help, because he felt in a corner situation "do it or die". Fortunately for him, the Emperor gave the solution, but we cannot know what would happened if some Magos Biologos

arrived at him offering "the fruit of knowledge" and the hidden risk to fall.

 

Tzeentch... do we know his final objective? Maybe he was the real mastermind behind the failure of the Horus Heresy... He hide Alpharius until only Horus would have find him, putting in Horus the idea to think Alpharius as a personal special follower... creating a double twin to generate more plot and treachery... maybe we would find that one remained on the Chaos side and the other on the Loyalist... and both would become very influential on both sides... at the end Magnus was the pawn to show and the double twins the real objective for the Lord of Change...

[DarthMarko]

Look, we are in life shaped by a sum of our genes + nurture, my mother is a psychiatrist and works with abandomed kids,and I'll tell you sometimes genes are so strong that no matter what nuture/moral education kid has, eventualy genes will prevail and sometimes will not...All I'm saying as I' get older I see world through pragmatic eyes - there are good man and they are good man, there is no grey area...

My point is that Magnus was good choice for Tzeench because he was weak in the end- he talk "the talk" and didn't have the guts the walk "the walk"....I' see Ahriman as I see Loken - guy who has moral standard but doesn't have the power to stop anything...My faith in Russ is my biased way - and agree I don't know what Russ would do, but I'm thinking he would be loyal to the end....

and @KarkassBC - when backed into corner - then you see what people truly are...

[Kol Saresk]

Sigmund Freud might disagree with you as I believe his entire argument was nature over nurture. As will studies on the "Criminal Gene".

 

My belief is that there is some mixing. But not as strong as some would suggest. On my dad's side, a line of preachers that stretches all the way back when Tennessee was first built as a colony. My mother's side, fresh from Britain, theistic evolutionist who has no problem destroying entire families for personal gain. I'm neither. I look like the spitting image of my father, literally. But were he talks and talks, I am normally quiet in real life. Same with my mother. On contrast, my sister acts just like my father. Ironic since there is no blood relation between the two, but then again, he has been the only father she will ever know. So I also have first hand experience at the other end of the equation, despite my lack of qualifications as a certified psychologist. At the same time, I can also disagree with Sigmund Freud on the fact that according to him, I should be some sort of misogynist, sadistic serial killer or other form of criminal. But then again, the entire psychologist community is still torn over Nature vs. Nurture and how much influence each has simply because both genetics and the environment have too many incalculable variables.

 

So the argument does and doesn't have merit. In order for "Nature over Nurture" to have merit, a rather extensive study involving separating children from parents and putting both groups through similar tests. To see if the child would react in the same way as the parent(either father or mother). The trick, and the unethical part, is that you would have to separate the child when it is a newborn so there is no external influence from either parent. That will either make or break the argument. And is also why it has never been done. Just as it is unethical and immoral for a child to be abandoned, it is also unethical and immoral for a child to be taken from parents that actually care about it, regardless of their financial situation. Now I'm sure, someone will say that there is another way to do it, but it ends involving more variables and therefore the results end up becoming less and less reliable due to the fact that something as small as a bully at school who is never talked about, could end being partially responsible for creating the next Ted Bundy, or Charles Manson. On the inverse, it could also create the next Bill Gates(who I believe is a big supporter of charities that help the less fortunate correct?) and the next Mother Theresa.

 

The problem with the Primarchs is that we don't know how much of their personality is genetic and how much is a product of their environments. The other kicker is the fact that all twenty Primarchs were touched by the warp, meaning that influence has to be taken into account as well. And only two Primarchs recall their days on Terra; Magnus and Corax. Of the two, only Magnus retains full memory of Terra and his conversations with his father, while Corax simply remembers an unknown face looking at him from outside his jar. Magnus is also the only Primarch recorded(to my knowledge) to astral project into the warp and sail its tides.

 

If we were to fully reverse the positions between Russ and Magnus, Russ would be the only Primarch to remember conversations with the Emperor while he was still a test tube baby. Russ would be the Psyker Primarch that landed on a planet full of fellow warp users. Russ would be the only recorded Primarch to astral project and sail the tides of the warp. A full reversal would mean that he would have to experience the exact same things that Magnus did. And to be honest, there is no way to suggest which decisions Russ would make and which ones he wouldn't because in order to experience the exact same things Magnus did, he would have to make some of the choices Magnus did. So the safe, and only correct answer to that scenario is "We don't know what Russ would do if he lived Magnus' life."

[DarthMarko]

Sigmund Freud might disagree with you as I believe his entire argument was nature over nurture. As will studies on the "Criminal Gene".

 

My belief is that there is some mixing. But not as strong as some would suggest. On my dad's side, a line of preachers that stretches all the way back when Tennessee was first built as a colony. My mother's side, fresh from Britain, theistic evolutionist who has no problem destroying entire families for personal gain. I'm neither. I look like the spitting image of my father, literally. But were he talks and talks, I am normally quiet in real life. Same with my mother. On contrast, my sister acts just like my father. Ironic since there is no blood relation between the two, but then again, he has been the only father she will ever know. So I also have first hand experience at the other end of the equation, despite my lack of qualifications as a certified psychologist. At the same time, I can also disagree with Sigmund Freud on the fact that according to him, I should be some sort of misogynist, sadistic serial killer or other form of criminal. But then again, the entire psychologist community is still torn over Nature vs. Nurture and how much influence each has simply because both genetics and the environment have too many incalculable variables.

 

So the argument does and doesn't have merit. In order for "Nature over Nurture" to have merit, a rather extensive study involving separating children from parents and putting both groups through similar tests. To see if the child would react in the same way as the parent(either father or mother). The trick, and the unethical part, is that you would have to separate the child when it is a newborn so there is no external influence from either parent. That will either make or break the argument. And is also why it has never been done. Just as it is unethical and immoral for a child to be abandoned, it is also unethical and immoral for a child to be taken from parents that actually care about it, regardless of their financial situation. Now I'm sure, someone will say that there is another way to do it, but it ends involving more variables and therefore the results end up becoming less and less reliable due to the fact that something as small as a bully at school who is never talked about, could end being partially responsible for creating the next Ted Bundy, or Charles Manson. On the inverse, it could also create the next Bill Gates(who I believe is a big supporter of charities that help the less fortunate correct?) and the next Mother Theresa.

 

The problem with the Primarchs is that we don't know how much of their personality is genetic and how much is a product of their environments. The other kicker is the fact that all twenty Primarchs were touched by the warp, meaning that influence has to be taken into account as well. And only two Primarchs recall their days on Terra; Magnus and Corax. Of the two, only Magnus retains full memory of Terra and his conversations with his father, while Corax simply remembers an unknown face looking at him from outside his jar. Magnus is also the only Primarch recorded(to my knowledge) to astral project into the warp and sail its tides.

 

If we were to fully reverse the positions between Russ and Magnus, Russ would be the only Primarch to remember conversations with the Emperor while he was still a test tube baby. Russ would be the Psyker Primarch that landed on a planet full of fellow warp users. Russ would be the only recorded Primarch to astral project and sail the tides of the warp. A full reversal would mean that he would have to experience the exact same things that Magnus did. And to be honest, there is no way to suggest which decisions Russ would make and which ones he wouldn't because in order to experience the exact same things Magnus did, he would have to make some of the choices Magnus did. So the safe, and only correct answer to that scenario is "We don't know what Russ would do if he lived Magnus' life."

Exactly,but Freud is heavily disputed today - I'mean ,yes he did put some foundation in psy department but his definitions are little obsolete today...

I'll give you example from my personal exp - Home for abandoned children in my town had a newborn gypsy child who was nurtured and extra cared pretty heavily and raised completly separeted from their community - you wouldn't belive when she aged 13 what types of social attributes which are typical for their ethnic group manifested aside with physical appearance (khm,don't wanna offend nobody but I'm speaking from scientific pov)...My point is that if you gene legacy is too strong there is no way you could fight that...

 

Also there is a reason why Tzeench choose Magnus - I'mean if you believe that deamon (who presents himself like a god) upon destruction of Prospero - telling Magnus that he was the first choice for chaos champion (not Horus) hmmmm....and what pains me the most,is Magnus didn't try to fight Horus after - he joined him - freely...

[KarkassBC]

Also there is a reason why Tzeench choose Magnus - I'mean if you believe that deamon (who presents himself like a god) upon destruction of Prospero - telling Magnus that he was the first choice for chaos champion (not Horus) hmmmm....and what pains me the most,is Magnus didn't try to fight Horus after - he joined him - freely...

 

I leave completely outside the topic of "nature-nurture" because is an open discussion in the real world with many important psychologists saying opposite views. So no one has the real answer for this dilemma.

 

Going to the Primarch side I remember Corax wondering about a different life if he would have arrived in Nostramo and not Kiavahr/Deliverance after fighting with Curze...

 

Magnus knows about Horus and hate Russ and Horus at the same time... one is the killer, the other the master behind him... and he thought of himself as a loyal son of the Emperor...

fighting alongside of Horus is probably not his choice but the payment for the oath taken with Tzeentch... again I want to say that he was not free to join the Horus side... moreover if we want to consider the burning of Prospero the result of Horus plans, we can use that situation as a proof of loyalty of Magnus...

Horus knows that Magnus couldn't be broken so he preferred to remove him from the game.

 

About the other Thousand Sons, we will heard more about Ahriman in the future (thanks to the new lore)... Ahriman considers himself loyal to the Emperor... Ahriman tries to obtain a vast knowledge on the Eldar Webway and the Black Library...

Which is the hidden project of the Emperor in Terra, the one broken by Magnus with his warning message?

 

And last but not least...

 

The "real" Legion choosed by Tzeentch is the Alpha Legion and not the Thousand Sons...

 

@DarthMarko (Russ loyalty)

I accept that for every possible scenario Russ would remain loyal to the Emperor... but his flaw is a black and white view and seeing a loyal fleet in orbit coming at him he starts the fight and destroy two loyal legions...

No one of many fan of the Space Wolves has ever answered one request... read Russ's answer to Kaspar Hauser in "Prospero Burn" when he tried to defend the possible loyalty of Magnus on the warning of Horus betrayal... Do you agree with that answer or not?

 

@DarthMarko (cornered people)

You missed the point. In Common Law the man put "in a corner" or put in a dangerous situation, he is not considered guilty for actions taken to escape that situation. It's the main point of the rule of "self defence".

[Kol Saresk]

Neither the Black Library or the Eldar Webway are the Emperor's secret project that Magnus almost completely destroyed. The project was the Golden Throne which was being used to permanently seal a daemon-filled Webway Gate on Terra while serving the dual purpose of powering the Astronomicon. Ironically, Magnus was the one originally planned on being used as a battery for the thing, not the Emperor.

 

Arhiman is after maps of the Eldar Webway so he can find his way to the Black Library, which is hidden somewhere inside. I believe he currently has the ability to travel in and out of the Webway, but only possesses a relatively small amount of what leads to where. The Black Library is supposed to be an infinite source of wisdom which Arhiman believes can free him from Magnus' punishment as well as reverse the Rubric so his brothers regain their flesh and blood, but remain free of the Flesh Change.

 

EDIT: I also forgot that the Emperor was planning on using the Terran Webway gate as a basis for starting a Human-made(or at least owned) Webway system.

[KarkassBC]

The Emperor project was the creation of Permanent Warp Gates as the Eldar Webway. Ahriman is searching for the knowledge to build one in order to gave it to the Emperor and completing his project stopped by his Primarch.

 

The Rubric marines are outside any possible reverse spell. Ahriman knows it and he only tries to find the cure for the flesh change to the living brothers. With the founding of the cure the thralldom with Tzeentch will end.

 

In "Thousand Sons" there is a prologue and an epilogue written by Ahriman himself.

Inside it he describes himself as a loyal servant of the Emperor and the cure for the flesh change will be his first step to recover the place of his Legion amongst the "Emperor's finest".

 

The knowledge of the Gate creation in his mind is the gift to the Emperor for his pardon and the cure of flesh change is the necessary step to forever remain loyal and accepted.

[DarthMarko]

Also there is a reason why Tzeench choose Magnus - I'mean if you believe that deamon (who presents himself like a god) upon destruction of Prospero - telling Magnus that he was the first choice for chaos champion (not Horus) hmmmm....and what pains me the most,is Magnus didn't try to fight Horus after - he joined him - freely...

 

I leave completely outside the topic of "nature-nurture" because is an open discussion in the real world with many important psychologists saying opposite views. So no one has the real answer for this dilemma.

 

Going to the Primarch side I remember Corax wondering about a different life if he would have arrived in Nostramo and not Kiavahr/Deliverance after fighting with Curze...

 

Magnus knows about Horus and hate Russ and Horus at the same time... one is the killer, the other the master behind him... and he thought of himself as a loyal son of the Emperor...

fighting alongside of Horus is probably not his choice but the payment for the oath taken with Tzeentch... again I want to say that he was not free to join the Horus side... moreover if we want to consider the burning of Prospero the result of Horus plans, we can use that situation as a proof of loyalty of Magnus...

Horus knows that Magnus couldn't be broken so he preferred to remove him from the game.

 

About the other Thousand Sons, we will heard more about Ahriman in the future (thanks to the new lore)... Ahriman considers himself loyal to the Emperor... Ahriman tries to obtain a vast knowledge on the Eldar Webway and the Black Library...

Which is the hidden project of the Emperor in Terra, the one broken by Magnus with his warning message?

 

And last but not least...

 

The "real" Legion choosed by Tzeentch is the Alpha Legion and not the Thousand Sons...

 

@DarthMarko (Russ loyalty)

I accept that for every possible scenario Russ would remain loyal to the Emperor... but his flaw is a black and white view and seeing a loyal fleet in orbit coming at him he starts the fight and destroy two loyal legions...

No one of many fan of the Space Wolves has ever answered one request... read Russ's answer to Kaspar Hauser in "Prospero Burn" when he tried to defend the possible loyalty of Magnus on the warning of Horus betrayal... Do you agree with that answer or not?

 

@DarthMarko (cornered people)

You missed the point. In Common Law the man put "in a corner" or put in a dangerous situation, he is not considered guilty for actions taken to escape that situation. It's the main point of the rule of "self defence".

 

I always thought that Magnus had free will when he sided with Horus...I'dont see any facts that dispute that or as you say "oaths taken with Tzeentch"...TS fans always brag how Magnus made his choices free willing-ly,so this is the first time I hear something different..

And btw you missed the point, hard choices is what defines us ,thinking on others over yourself when backed into corner is what makes us humans and not animals,so your self-defence notion is little confusing...so hypoteticaly if I kill 100 men so I can save my life thats ok by you?

...

[Kol Saresk]

According to A Thousand Sons, Magnus first saved his Legion from the Flesh Change by soul-walking through the Warp. He came upon Tzeentch(but he didn't realize who Tzeentch was at the time) and made a deal to save his Legion by stalling the Flesh Change. Because so much time passed between the stopping of the Flesh Change the events of ATS, Magnus either thought he could find a permanent solution to the Flesh Change, or he wouldn't have to worry about it because he thought he had full mastery of the warp. We also see that when from the viewpoint of the Thosuand Sons, that the razing of Prospero began when the Wolves began bombarding it. But the KSons were able to put up Kine shields and that is when the invasion began. From there, we see the Sons constantly asking Magnus to join the battle while they tried to fight off the Wolves and Magnus just ignored them. He was content to let the Wolves slaughter everyone. He even killed one of his own sons to hide the fact that the Space Wolves were coming to Prospero. Well eventually, an avatar(of sorts) of Tzeentch comes to Magnus and reminds him of the deal. Since Magnus did not keep up his end of the bargain(which was never fully disclosed), Tzeentch let's the Flesh Change begin to ravage the Sons, which results in spawns erupting across the planet as well as psychic powers raging out of control, such as Khalpohis' pyrokinesis detonating on him and destroying the temple he was in as well as the Titan he was controlling through the use of a crystal psychic interface. As a last resort to save his Sons from the Flesh Change, Magnus heads into battle and goes into a relatively half-hearted fight with Russ, in which his back is broken and he uses that moment to open a gate into the Warp that transports a Thousand of the Thousand Sons into the warp along with pieces of Tizca. It is safe to assume that he finally kept his end of the bargain as the destruction of his physical body allowed him to transcend to daemonhood, but the Flesh Change continues to ravage the Legion and thus begins Arhiman's creation of the Rubric. Although in Aurelian, we see that some of the Thousand Sons have quickly taken up the service of Tzeentch in repayment for their lives(as they still know almost nothing of the true history of their Legion) and see the Flesh Change as a blessing from their new patron and therefore a small price to pay. What we see from Magnus is that he is still mourning over everything that has happened and has only reluctantly joined the Heresy only because he sold his soul to the Devil and the Devil is still collecting. Somewhere along the line, the reluctance turns into willfulness, but not until sometime after the Dropsite Massacre.

 

And what KarkassBC is saying is that despite the fact that we are humans, we still have a sense of self-preservation and that will make people do illogical things in the name of Survival. Our first instinct is to fight fire with fire when we are backed into a corner and it is a very hard thing to ignore, especially when the situation is survive or die. It also becomes very easy to justify a good number of things when we are in that state. Not saying that we should justify it, but if your choices are kill or be killed and you are not the instigator, no one with a shred of common sense is going to hold you accountable. In the case of the Thousand Sons at Prospero, the choices were survive and become servants of Tzeentch, or die at the hands of what they deemed were brothers who had turned on them and were slaughtering them. To them, selling their souls to the Devil in order to survive didn't look that bad of a price. It wasn't necessarily the right choice, but they did what they saw as right at that point in time. Only a few would choose to regret it and try to change. And Arhiman is still paying the price to "this day."

 

EDIT: It's not that the choice is right by society's standards(although some societies have some rather warped standards). It is that the choice is right by the person's standards. I believe the Bible listed it as "People doing what was right in their own eyes." Nowadays we call it a lack of respect for the law.