Arming dreadnaughts

[PaganLinuxGeek]

I inherited metal 4 assault cannon arms. 2 right and 2 left. Guess I'm cutting them to make legal armaments...

I'd love to know where they came from. If they're GW-legit, then they've got to be rarities.

 

I inherited them from a long-time 40k player that passed away. So there's no telling how old they are.

There were originally 2 dreads, two dccw (claws), 2 right arm assault cannons, 2 left arm assault cannons all metal.

 

I've since added 2 more metal dreads (ebay!) a chainfist, TL-LC, and Missile Launcher various other dread bits.

[tvih]

While havocs with 4 autocannons are cool, you need to keep in mind CSM have to sacrifice a heavy support slot to get them. And CSM have some awesome heavy support choices, so it's not nearly as simple as it may seem (for example, I'd take 2-3 oblits over an autocannon havoc squad any day). I'm mentioning this because it showcases one big strength of the vanilla dex: we have multiple cheap efficient shooty units in almost every slot, whereas many other armies do not.

Well, it really depends. On a lower point limit match I'd really pick Havocs first. Plus Obliterators just feel overappreciated anyway. Sure they can take some dakka if you're lucky, but it's still 76 points per model (taking them without MoN is madness) that only shoots one weapon per turn. For the price of two Obliterators the Havocs can even have 4 lascannons (well ok, it's 3 points more). I plan on sticking with Predators, Vindicators and Havocs personally once I get my CSM assembled in the far future.

 

 

Can anyone explain how exactly CC works for a dread with two ranged weapons? They have str 6 and 2 attacks as per their stat line but what is the AP on those attacks.

AP -, unfortunately.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

While havocs with 4 autocannons are cool, you need to keep in mind CSM have to sacrifice a heavy support slot to get them. And CSM have some awesome heavy support choices, so it's not nearly as simple as it may seem (for example, I'd take 2-3 oblits over an autocannon havoc squad any day). I'm mentioning this because it showcases one big strength of the vanilla dex: we have multiple cheap efficient shooty units in almost every slot, whereas many other armies do not.

Well, it really depends. On a lower point limit match I'd really pick Havocs first. Plus Obliterators just feel overappreciated anyway. Sure they can take some dakka if you're lucky, but it's still 76 points per model (taking them without MoN is madness) that only shoots one weapon per turn. For the price of two Obliterators the Havocs can even have 4 lascannons (well ok, it's 3 points more). I plan on sticking with Predators, Vindicators and Havocs personally once I get my CSM assembled in the far future.

 

 

Can anyone explain how exactly CC works for a dread with two ranged weapons? They have str 6 and 2 attacks as per their stat line but what is the AP on those attacks.

AP -, unfortunately.

 

So basically the dread bitch-slaps opponent's models with it's current armament? TL-LC to the head?! Or am I misunderstanding this?

[Bannus]

No. He kicks them in the shins. ;)

[Giga]

Can anyone explain how exactly CC works for a dread with two ranged weapons? They have str 6 and 2 attacks as per their stat line but what is the AP on those attacks.

Their attacks don't have an AP value.

Also, does everyone think about assault cannon combo's. AC/DCCW seems to be solid and popular, but what about AC/ML or AC/TLAC?

All of those are garbage.

[dswanick]

Can anyone explain how exactly CC works for a dread with two ranged weapons? They have str 6 and 2 attacks as per their stat line but what is the AP on those attacks.

As with all CC attacks that don't specify, AP-.

Also, does everyone think about assault cannon combo's. AC/DCCW seems to be solid and popular, but what about AC/ML or AC/TLAC?

The problem with these is the mismatch in range between the AssCannon and ML/AC. They match much better with the LC.

[UltraTacSgt]

All of those are garbage.

 

So in a list with a vindi or two, two typhoons, a rhino or two, a rifle dread, and likely some tac terms; is an AC/DCCW dread really worthless if its job is to walk up with the main push and follow the tac marines onto a middle objective? Wouldn't the other, argueably higher priority targets give it breathing room? And if it was always supported by at least one tac squad/sterns/etc wouldn't it be good for soaking up overwatch while charging before the unit with it charged as well, especially against a unit that was wounded on the way into CC range by the dread and supporting squad?

 

I am admittedly inexperienced compared to many here, but I don't understand why a dread used as a mid range support unit is so terrible, especially in a more casual, FLGS setting. I have two dreads, one rifleman (which will always be fielded as such) and one with the following weapons to choose from: ML, LC, DCCW, AC. Is there no way to fit the second dread into a list with the aforementioned types of units?

 

Edited for punctuation.

[dswanick]

All of those are garbage.

 

So in a list with a vindi or two, two typhoons, a rhino or two, a rifle dread, and likely some tac terms; is an AC/DCCW dread really worthless if its job is to walk up with the main push and follow the tac marines onto a middle objective? Wouldn't the other, argueably higher priority targets give it breathing room? And if it was always supported by at least one tac squad/sterns/etc wouldn't it be good for soaking up overwatch while charging before the unit with it charged as well, especially against a unit that was wounded on the way into CC range by the dread and supporting squad?

 

I am admittedly inexperienced compared to many here, but I don't understand why a dread used as a mid range support unit is so terrible, especially in a more casual, FLGS setting. I have two dreads, one rifleman (which will always be fielded as such) and one with the following weapons to choose from: ML, LC, DCCW, AC. Is there no way to fit the second dread into a list with the aforementioned types of units?

 

Edited for punctuation.

No, you are correct. A Dread with either an Ass.Cannon or Plasma Cannon is a great Relentless fire platform to support a Tac.Squad. And when used to initiate a charge, protects that squad from Overwatch fire.

 

On the other hand a AC/AC, AC/ML, or AC/LC dread is a good alternative to a Predator in a full Drop Pod Assault force.

[Giga]

Too many mid-to-short-range units create traffic jams and bad LOS blocks on the table, especially if a vehicle gets wrecked/immobilized. Vanilla tends to have this happen all the time, and it sucks. This is why you need a good balance of 36-48" and 12-24" range stuff.

 

Also, AC/DCCW dreads suck. I mean, for 110+ points you get AV12 with a single mid-range gun. They also have only 2 WS4 attacks, so even if you reach assault, they're at best going to be killing 1-2 guys a turn. Nowadays they can even be hurt by krak grenades in close combat, so they could actually get wrecked in close combat by your average MEQ squad. Simply put, there's far better stuff you can get for the points.

[dswanick]

Too many mid-to-short-range units create traffic jams and bad LOS blocks on the table, especially if a vehicle gets wrecked/immobilized. Vanilla tends to have this happen all the time, and it sucks. This is why you need a good balance of 36-48" and 12-24" range stuff. Also, AC/DCCW dreads suck. I mean, for 110+ points you get AV12 with a single mid-range gun. They also have only 2 WS4 attacks, so even if you reach assault, they're at best going to be killing 1-2 guys a turn. Nowadays they can even be hurt by krak grenades in close combat, so they could actually get wrecked in close combat by your average MEQ squad. Simply put, there's far better stuff you can get for the points.

Let's assume a 10man Tac.Squad supported by a Ass.Cannon/DCCW(H.Flamer) Dreadnought - 295pts against a 10man SW Grey Hunters pack (2X Melta, Power Sword, Mark of the Wolfen, Standard) - 195pts.

I'll assume that the template hits just two models each, and the units are <6" away (both for odds of rolling a successful charge and for Melta range).

 

The Dreadnought shoots its Ass.Cannon and H.Flamer:

4 Ass.Cannon shots = 2.67 hits = 1.77 wounds+(.45 Rends) = 1.03 Dead

1 H.Flamer shot = 2 hits = 1.33 wounds = .44 Dead

 

The Tac.Squad fires 10 Bolt Pistols:

10 shots = 6.67 hits = 3.34 wounds = 1.11 Dead

 

The Dreadnought declares a charge:

The Bolter fire is useless

2 Melta shots = .334 hits = 30% chance of foiling the Assault

Either way, the Tac.Squad can charge without worrying about Overwatch

 

I'll now assume that both the Dreadnought and Tac.Squad make it into combat and the Grey Hunters pass their Counter Attack Leadership test and roll a 5 (avg.d6 roll is 3.5 + a reroll of 1 for the standard) for the Wolfen's attacks.

 

Dreadnought:

2+1 WS4 S10 AP2 attacks

3 swings = 1.5 hits = 1.25 Dead

 

Tac.Squad:

10X 1+1 WS4 S3 AP- attacks

20 swings = 10 hits = 5 wounds = 1.67 Dead

 

Grey Hunters:

5.42X 2+1 Ws4 S4 AP- attacks

16.26 swings = 9.49 hits = 5.54 wounds = 1.84 Dead

1X 2+1 WS4 S4 AP3 attacks

3 swings = 1.75 hits = 1.02 wounds = .34 Dead

1X 5+1 WS4 S4 AP- Rending attacks

6 swings = 3.5 hits = 1.36 wounds+(.68 Rends) = 2.04 Dead

 

Grand Total:

Tac Squad and Dreadnought - kills 5.5 Grey Hunters

Grey Hunters - kill 4.22 Tacs with a 30% chance of messing up the Dreadnought

 

And that assumes that the Tac.Squad is bare-bones, that the H.Flamer gets a minimal number of hits, and that the Grey Hunters don't lose any of their upgraded models which were all selected for maximum Counter Attack carnage.

[tvih]

And that assumes that the Tac.Squad is bare-bones, that the H.Flamer gets a minimal number of hits, and that the Grey Hunters don't lose any of their upgraded models which were all selected for maximum Counter Attack carnage.

I do believe you just proved why the Dread isn't great in that role. After all you were attacking with 100 more points and had a fair chance of the dread going poof. Not to mention that most importantly you assumed the Dread got into range to assault before getting blown up by one thing or another, which is what happens just about every time. With just 6" base movement a Dread just isn't good at going places. You basically have to drop pod it in if it's a short-range variant, or play it defensively if your enemy is rushing your objectives. If drop podded, it can't even assault the turn it arrives, thus probably getting shot to pieces before it can in fact assault at all.

 

If at all possible, I stay in a place where I get a cover save for my Dreads, but sadly even that hardly makes them durable, and of course an AC+DCCW build doesn't have that luxury unless indeed it stays in hiding waiting for the enemy to come to it.

[dswanick]

And that assumes that the Tac.Squad is bare-bones, that the H.Flamer gets a minimal number of hits, and that the Grey Hunters don't lose any of their upgraded models which were all selected for maximum Counter Attack carnage.

I do believe you just proved why the Dread isn't great in that role. After all you were attacking with 100 more points and had a fair chance of the dread going poof. Not to mention that most importantly you assumed the Dread got into range to assault before getting blown up by one thing or another, which is what happens just about every time. With just 6" base movement a Dread just isn't good at going places. You basically have to drop pod it in if it's a short-range variant, or play it defensively if your enemy is rushing your objectives. If drop podded, it can't even assault the turn it arrives, thus probably getting shot to pieces before it can in fact assault at all.

Notice, I never claimed it was "great" but that's a far cry from "garbage". I think what I proved is that under the worst possible conditions -

- ignoring the maneuver turns of 10 Bolter + 4 Assault Cannon shots vs 24 Bolter, which the Dreadnought ignores and the Tac.Squad can mitigate with their mobile Cover (the Dreadnought).

- worste upgrades on the Tac.Squad vs best upgrades on the Grey Hunters.

- Tac.Squad charging arguably the best charge receiving unit in the game.

- a Tac.Squad charging anything vs Boltering it to death as intended.

They still come out ahead. Also a 30% chance of denying its charge is not the same thing as the 10-15% chance of the model actually being destroyed or immobilized (it also included the chances of a Stun result stopping its charge or the chance that its CCW would be destroyed) - all of which still amounts to less than a 1 in 3 chance. And as far as a 6" Move is concerned - what's the Move of the Tac.Squad it's supporting? Yep, 6". Lastly, if you're going to try an include every "getting blown up by one thing or another" possibility, then the only reasonable way is to play games with - mathhammer fails at that.

[tvih]

Regardless of upgrades and the target unit having counter-attack and all, that points difference is still there. And yes, charging with the tactical squad is often questionable to begin with. As is footslogging 6" at a time, they won't get to where they were going before being shot to pieces (my previous game was a good example of that, 15 tacticals gone within half a turn without even taking more than a couple of AP3 hits). In fact in my books actually attacking objectives instead of sitting back and shooting is by far the trickiest thing to do with SM these days, tacticals just don't have the staying power when you move them out of cover.

 

It's the same problem with my Templars. Recently I've been able to fight ties instead of losing even against better codices, but that's where it ends - if I try to attack, the attacking units are wiped out immediately.

 

As for arming dreadnoughts, I'm planning on trying out an expensive 170-point Venerable BT dread in Sunday's tournament. Sucks to pay so much for TLLC+ML, but hopefully BS5 and Tank Hunters will get something done before the damn thing blows up in turn 1 again. I was thinking of AC+DCCW at first, but all the mentioned problems remain, and enemies don't usually come close enough with vehicles for me to get to whack at them with the DCCW, and against infantry it doesn't end well, unless they lack S6+ attacks in CC altogether.

[Brom MKIV]

The dreads attacks are ap- without the dccw.

 

I dont rate the hellfire dread (ml/ac or Ml + other gun) but I go back and forth between the 2 tlac (rifleman) or the tlac/ac variant (im calling it deathwatch pattern but others call it machinegun dread etc).

The rifleman is superior vs. flyers and at ranges greater than 24", but the deathwatch beats hordes at <24".

 

The tlac/ac is also nearly identical in damage output to a baal pred vs av11 (roughly 1.81 vs 1.75 glancings) and better vs av 12 while being a bit worse than the baal vs t4 infantry (3.69 vs 5.58 wounds). However the cost is also less and the dread gets to move and fire at full BS which even a dakka pred cannot do, and rending shots means it threatens anything.

 

All that said I do love a simple dccw/ac because it threatens DSing units, HQs other dreads etc in CC, which a pure shooting dread just doesnt. The dccw is great for scaring/assaulting t5 or less ICs that strike last or units like PMs, death company and such so this is probably my favorite and my current go-to dread but my second is usually the tlac/ac followed by the rifleman.

[DarkGuard]

On here I believe the TL-AC/AC Dread is known as the Heavy Gunner, carrying on from the Rifleman theme. Captain Idaho is a big fan of those for their firepower when moving into midfield.

 

If I go shooty Dread, I prefer the Rifleman though, or the TL-LC Dread. It's got to have that range for it to be useful IMO.

 

Most DCCW Dreads aren't that good though, which is always a shame. And GW don't seem to care or do anything to make them truly viable.

[dswanick]

On here I believe the TL-AC/AC Dread is known as the Heavy Gunner, carrying on from the Rifleman theme.

...

If I go shooty Dread, I prefer the Rifleman though, or the TL-LC Dread.

Although, strictly speaking, the TLAC/TLLC is the proper claimant to the "Rifleman Dread" moniker. TLLC/TLLC should properly be called the "Jagermech".

Most DCCW Dreads aren't that good though, which is always a shame. And GW don't seem to care or do anything to make them truly viable.

No, but Forge World did a fine job - the Contemptor is what a Space Marine Dreadnought should be...

I just think too many people look at a Dreadnought model and think it should be a point-and-click, easy win, Deathstar when it's actually just a 150pt tool in your toolbox.

 

So what would everyone call my favorite bug-swatter : the PC/TLAC?

[Brom MKIV]

Hmmmm how about Hades pattern dreadnought.. sick loadout btw

 

Also I rather like the dccw, s10 at init is very useful at times.

[Brom MKIV]

After reading through this last page again I would like to expand on why I like the dccw/ac dread. I have been using one for the last 20 games or so fwiw.

 

Heres one of my more common lists at 1850 for reference (basic skeleton always stays the same):

 

 

terminator rune priest (joins either LFs or slogging GHs, or rarely the podded GHs, situation dependent)

 

5 wolf guard, 5 cbplasmas, drop pod

terminator lone wolf, cf/ss

dread, dccw/ac

 

11 grey hunters, wgpl- tda axe/sb, 2 pg, std, drop pod (wgpl alternately stays with WG to allow this unit to drop pod)

7 grey hunters, wgpl- tda axe/cbmelta, mg, std, drop pod

5 grey hunters, flamer, razorback- tlac

5 grey hunters, pg, razorback- tlac

5 grey hunters, pg, razorback- tlac

 

7 long fangs, wgpl- tda cml/axe/sb, 5 missiles

vindicator

vindicator

 

So yes the army operates best within 24" and yes this can be used against me. However the long fangs, rune priest and drop pods really help to mitigate this and I enjoy the way it plays not to mention asscans are decent against flyers without resorting to allies.

 

Moving on...the lone wolf and dread perform unique roles by protecting my firebase and slogging GHs as well as home base objective campers like one of the small GH packs I sometimes leave behind.

 

They work great as support and protection against forward deploying forces and fast hunter units due to the nature of these types of units plus the expendable nature of the LW and dread.

Both bring unique skills for units my army may struggle against, for example in a recent game a deathstar unit of 8 fully tooled nobz bikers + warboss went on a rampage shrugging insane fire and smashing everything in sight. Jotww bounced and my RP got eaten, multiple tanks and GH packs went down and they even shot my LFs up badly (bad dice here). Then the dread stepped up taking the last wound off an already wounded nob and charging in to kill 3 more. Epic. The warboss hammered him in response but the loss of the warboss's ablative wounds allowed me to gun him down the following turn about 6" from my objective in a tie game (emperors will). Things like this cannot be math hammered man.

Ive also had my dread munch whole units of podded death company, tactical termies (shoulda brought a chainfist) and even kill furioso dreads (snippy dreads especially arent happy to see opposing dccws coming their way). His asscan was also my very last shots left one game and he took down mephiston.

 

So far ive never lost the big guy to krak grenades although ive come close. Ya it may take awhile to chew through a full squad but who cares he tarpits while hiding from AT weaponry. Meanwhile its great to have a countercharge mech element you can bubble wrap from melta and then move 6", shoot and charge up to 12".

 

Lastly, certain weapons are hard to come by for many armies, and these are the weapons a dread has access to, like an asscan. Squeezing another asscan in the above list without the dread would require changing the entire dynamic for either another razorback or else by maxing the WG squad to access an asscan for the slogging GH pack (or speeders but fragility and cost precludes this for me). Suddenly a 105 asscan + s10 attacks looks pretty appealing. Anyway I suppose your millage may vary but in a list such as mine with 4 other twin linked ac's plus double vindis the dread is pretty low on the priority list, which helps him shine.

[Giga]

@ dswanick

 

300 points vs 200 points, and even then, the 300 points kills 5-6 guys while the 200 points kills 3-4 guys? And I'm supposed to be impressed, lol?

 

Also who the hell takes power weapons to gray hunters? Why would you waste points on that? xD

[dswanick]

@ dswanick

300 points vs 200 points, and even then, the 300 points kills 5-6 guys while the 200 points kills 3-4 guys? And I'm supposed to be impressed, lol?

And what would it be if a 200pt Tac.Squad charged a 200pt Grey Hunter pack?

Also who the hell takes power weapons to gray hunters? Why would you waste points on that? xD

Me, and lots of others. P.Axe on a Grey Hunter is better than a P.Fist for fewer points. I went Power Sword in the example for the I vs AP3.

[Giga]

@ dswanick

 

Heh. I dunno what your local metagame is like, but if you kick ass with your ac/dccw dreads, well then, I'm glad for you.

 

Just please, if you're gonna advise people to play units like that, at least tell them not to glue the arms on the dread. That way at least they won't hate you for making them waste 30 pounds on a dread that does nothing. ;]

[dswanick]

@ dswanick

 

Heh. I dunno what your local metagame is like, but if you kick ass with your ac/dccw dreads, well then, I'm glad for you.

 

Just please, if you're gonna advise people to play units like that, at least tell them not to glue the arms on the dread. That way at least they won't hate you for making them waste 30 pounds on a dread that does nothing. ;]

Wow, quite the arrogant attitude there.

[Giga]

Eh, sorry for that. I blame it on my current hungover state. >_<

 

But my point stands. AC/DCCW dreads are subpar in 6th ed (and they were subpar in 5th, too) and you won't see many of them in tournament-winning lists.

[dswanick]

Eh, sorry for that. I blame it on my current hungover state. >_<

 

But my point stands. AC/DCCW dreads are subpar in 6th ed (and they were subpar in 5th, too) and you won't see many of them in tournament-winning lists.

Understood. And as I said - AV12 Dreads are OK, not noteworthy. Venerables and Contemptors are closer to what people expect from a Dreadnought with thier FAV13/Invulnerable Saves or Damage Chart re-rolls, and their cost reflects this. But the point of the post was this:

I was looking through my army lists and thinking of options and usefulness. During this my thoughts turned to dreadnaughts.

 

I always arm my dreads with at least one close combat weapon, reasoning that an ancient warrior will need a hand to point and gesture with.

 

To me a dread with two ranged weapons has been reduced to nothing more than a weapon platform, akin to the automatons of ordo reductor. This is an insult to their warrior spirit.

 

So who else arms their dreads because it feels right, rather than useful?

Ranged/DCCW Dreadnoughts are not all-stars. But their hardly the "garbage" that some claim.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have six Dreadnoughts in my case -- two Venerable, two regular, and two Ironclads. The only ones that I'll put on the table in 6th Edition are the Ironclads. That AV13 is just too useful at deflecting medium anti-tank guns like krak missiles and autocannons. Anything that's AV12 and designed to close with the enemy will just die inordinately fast these days thanks to the improvements in infantry krak grenades and the hull point system. I still think the Rifleman has its place in our new, infantry-heavier metagame -- it can have an effect as an improvised flak platform -- but gun & fist dreads (even Venerables) do not have the battlefield longevity to be worth their points anymore.

 

And it pains me to say that.