Gene-seed Tithes

[Wulfebane]

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around the tithing procedures between the AdMech and Astartes Chapters. Are there any BL novels or more GW literature somewhere that goes into greater detail?

 

My main reason for this is trying to understand when Chapters are decimated, how do they recover? Blood Ravens and Flesh Tearers, for example, are nearing extinction, and the Blood Ravens being a fleet-based chapter keep all their gene-seed stock closely guarded onboard their vessels. How is it, then, that these chapters continue to provide tithes to the AdMech, when it is such a precious resource.

 

Additionally, does the AdMech continue to reproduce more gene-seed for Chapters, thru cloning or databases, or whatever, or do they rely solely on tithes provided by Chapters? If so, would it be safe to assume some regions of space are limited on certain primogenitor gene-seed stocks; Region A may have an abundance of UM, but limited on IH, versus region B having the opposite. Also, wouldn't this mean that gene-seed stock overall are slowly declining as some battles would cause for marines to be unrecoverable? I've never seen a clear response on this.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Not a lot is known, however, some things can be safely assumed -

 

Blood Ravens and other chapters, when they are nearing extinction, get some of their donated geneseed back to help rebuild, and are allowed to take a break as far as tithing goes. Normally they tithe just like every other chapter, and can probably give additional fleet strength to the no doubt highly protected convoy carrying the geneseed to the Admech on Mars.

 

Each marine is implanted with one geneseed and produces another, and while there are countless ways that marines die that either one or both cannot be recovered, just as often a marine dies and both can be used for future recruits. It is possible that the Admech uses clones or whatever to implant with geneseed and then harvest that, however, directly cloning geneseed is probably a risky move as most experimentations with geneseed tend to lead to massive failure. Just look at the Fire Hawks, the experiments with theirs caused them to spontaneously combust.

 

Since all chapters send their geneseed to Mars for their tithes, all issues are dealt with from there. Regionality wouldn't matter much, besides, most chapters tend to work alone anyways.

 

Hope this helps :blink:

[Wulfebane]

Yeah, that helps a lot.. especially the "implant one, grow one" concept. Happen to know where this is written?

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Yeah, that helps a lot.. especially the "implant one, grow one" concept. Happen to know where this is written?

I've read it once or twice in various stories, the one that immediately springs to mind is the Dark Angel story in Age of Darkness, give me a moment to look it up and the quote... but as for the original source which set it down before that, I don't know.

 

EDIT: I could have sworn it had been mentioned, I found the story I was thinking of - Call of the Lion, actually in Tales of Heresy - but cannot find the bit I'm looking for... :D

[Wulfebane]

EDIT: I could have sworn it had been mentioned, I found the story I was thinking of - Call of the Lion, actually in Tales of Heresy - but cannot find the bit I'm looking for... :D

 

Must've been purged by the Inquisition.

 

As to tithes getting sent to Mars, how does that work for Halo Star chapters or those out of beacon range? Wouldn't it accrue some "accounting" errors giving the large amount of time it would take to reach Mars?

 

Also, for newly-founded chapters, must they begin tithing immediately, or do they have a bit of leeway to expand their numbers as well? If so, for writing it into a DIY IA, what would be a suitable length of time before tithes resume?

[Banelord]

Yeah, that helps a lot.. especially the "implant one, grow one" concept. Happen to know where this is written?

 

 

Yes it’s called the Progenoid Gland, its collects and stores genetic data. Its described in some of the older fluff, such as the Codex Imperialis and Warhammer 40000 compendium. Only 5% of Gene-seed is sent to Mars, if a chapter needs more gene-seed slaves are usually used to grow extra. Try this link Gene-seed it might help :devil:

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

As to tithes getting sent to Mars, how does that work for Halo Star chapters or those out of beacon range? Wouldn't it accrue some "accounting" errors giving the large amount of time it would take to reach Mars?

 

Also, for newly-founded chapters, must they begin tithing immediately, or do they have a bit of leeway to expand their numbers as well? If so, for writing it into a DIY IA, what would be a suitable length of time before tithes resume?

Things like that would be taken into account for the chapters whose locations are unique.

 

I would also assume that newly founded chapters have leeway until they reach a certain strength.

[Arkangilos]

Well, on another topic they were discussing this. The gene-seed itself is actually all of the organs, and the Progenoids (with which they are given two of) are grown inside the body, and those pretty much store the genetic make-up of the gene-seed as it is inside the body. Once those are harvested, they break them down to create the other organs and more gene-seed. Each progenoid creates the entire set of organs, so one progenoid creates 2 progenoids. Therefore, one marine creates four progenoids. Here is a source considered more reliable, and if you want I can hunt down the other Gene-seed discussion. Link

[Banelord]

In older fluff the Progenoids are the Gene-seeds and the rest of the organs are grown from them. I don’t know if older fluff is still considered right but here a quote.

 

Codex Imperialis, Page 18

Progenoids. The Gene-Seeds. Every Space Marine has these organs, one implanted in the neck and another in the chest. The organs respond to the presence of other implants in the body by creating germ cells corresponding to those implants. These germ cells grow and are stored in the progenoid organs. Mature progenoid organs can be removed and new implants artificially cultured from them. This is the only way new implants can be created, so a chapter depends upon its Space Marines to create other Space Marines.

 

Page 23. Codex Imperialis

The source of a Chapter’s gene-seed is its Space Marine brothers themselves. Every Space Marine carries a replicating organ buried deep inside his chest and another at the base of his throat. These progenoid organs absorb free DNA strands from the Space Marin’s other implants and form them into germ cells. If a Space Marine dies in battle he can be replaced if either or both of his progenoid organs can be recovered (given a few years) but if he dies and his body is destroyed or lost his gene-seed is lost too.

 

By the sound of it, if both Progenoids are recovered two Space Marines can be created (one for each Progenoid If I’m reading it right).

In later fluff they are called Progenoids glands and germ cell was renamed to gene-seed.

 

Index Astartes: Book 1

Page, 5

These glands represent a chapter’s only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine.

Page, 6

The whole purpose of the progenoid organ is to provide gene-seed to enable the chapter to continue. It is not possible to create zygote in any other way. Each Chapter’s stock of gene-seed is therefore unique to itself.

 

Chapters only have to send 5% of its gene-seed to the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s just to monitor health and to found new chapters. Each Chapter is responsible for its own gene-seed, if it runs out tough, but it is possible to grow new gene-seed but it can take centuries for a chapter to recover to full strength.

 

Index Astartes: Book 1

Page 6,

 

As each Marine has only two progenoid glands, the rate at which a Chapter can create new Marines is restricted. It may take many years for a chapter to rebuild itself after heavy losses. Gene-seed is often rendered useless if a Marine is exposed to high radiation levels or other forms of genetic disturbance. The efficiency of different Chapters’ progenoid gene-seed also varies, so some chapters are able to make up their numbers faster than others.

 

According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This ‘Tithe’ has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new Chapters.

 

Can’t find anything on how it gets there, I’m guessing the same way new Techmarines get there to get trained. Maybe it just get sent to the nearest AbMech planet and passed on from there? :D

[Arkangilos]

I think between what you and I said is a matter of interpretation then. It says the Progenoid is the source of the gene-seed, and that it creates a gene-seed that corresponds to EACH organ, and those are used to create more of those organs.

 

Then, progenoid is broken down, and the gene-seed is used to fully recreate the zygotes. Therefore, each organ is part of the gene-seed. The gene-seed is just the genetic starter for remaking the organs. So, I don't think it is a wrong statement to say that the progenoids themselves are the gene-seed.

[Banelord]

I think between what you and I said is a matter of interpretation then. It says the Progenoid is the source of the gene-seed, and that it creates a gene-seed that corresponds to EACH organ, and those are used to create more of those organs.

 

Then, progenoid is broken down, and the gene-seed is used to fully recreate the zygotes. Therefore, each organ is part of the gene-seed. The gene-seed is just the genetic starter for remaking the organs. So, I don't think it is a wrong statement to say that the progenoids themselves are the gene-seed.

 

I agree, but it’s interesting how the fluff has evolved over the years. I guess the context has something to do with it was well. When it say “Harvesting or storing” Gene-seeds the mean the Progenoids but when the say “Implanting” gene-seeds they men the organs, if that makes sense.

[Arkangilos]

I think between what you and I said is a matter of interpretation then. It says the Progenoid is the source of the gene-seed, and that it creates a gene-seed that corresponds to EACH organ, and those are used to create more of those organs.

 

Then, progenoid is broken down, and the gene-seed is used to fully recreate the zygotes. Therefore, each organ is part of the gene-seed. The gene-seed is just the genetic starter for remaking the organs. So, I don't think it is a wrong statement to say that the progenoids themselves are the gene-seed.

 

I agree, but it’s interesting how the fluff has evolved over the years. I guess the context has something to do with it was well. When it say “Harvesting or storing” Gene-seeds the mean the Progenoids but when the say “Implanting” gene-seeds they men the organs, if that makes sense.

 

It does. I see it as the gene-seed (all of the organs) are stored inside the progenoids, which are stored inside stasis storage pods or whatever. From there, they break them down when they start implanting the organs, taking the gene-seed out of it.

 

It's like a wrapper.

[greatcrusade08]

i think there is alot of confusion in this thread.

a progenoid is an empty sac implanted in the 18th stage just before the black carapace, it collects germ cells from the varied implanted organs within the space marines body.

the space marine is implanted with two such progenoids (he does not grow one in quite the way its described here)

 

these germ cells are miniature clones of the organs, a mature progenoid filled with germ cells is the gene seed

the progenoids are harvested from the dead and stored until needed. its my opinion that the tithe is taken from the dead, so if after one year, 120 progenoids are harvested, 6 are sent to mars.. (the one year figure is arbitary to serve as an example)

however before the progenoid can be used to create new space marines, it must be opened the the germ cells cultivated and vat grown into the cloned organs.

 

each gene-seed contains germ cells for two new progenoids aswell as the 18 other implants/organs.

so if a space marine has two progenoids implanted, he grows the germ cells for four progenids in total, aswell as the germ cells for two sets of organs.

 

the neck progenoid takes 5 years to fully mature, the chest take ten.

 

it was discovered in the amicus thread, that in recent fluff its established that the genetic legacies are followed/monitored, so each marines knows where his gene seed comes from.