Raptor Advantages over Bikers

[CitadelArmyGuy]

This thread is not whether Raptors are better than Bikers or not. The answer is pretty straightforward. Mostly I want to discuss how to make the most of running Raptors if a player wants to use a Night Lords themed force. Basically how to focus on Raptors' strengths in the face of far superior Bikers.

 

I'm mostly opening this thread for a pal of mine who's getting back into the hobby after being deployed in Afghanistan-- trying to help him with his army-list here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=265625

 

For beginners, I'd stay away from Nurgle Marked Raptors. Here's why:

• Nurgle Raptor: 20pts. T5, CCW-BP, 12" Move + D6" Run
  
• Unmarked Biker: 20pts. T5, CCW-BP, TL-Bolter, Jink, Relentless, 12" Move + 12" Turboboost, Hammer of Wrath always active
  

Now looking at Khorne Raptors (19pts) versus Unmarked Biker (20pts)-- the Rage on the Raptor is offset by the pre-charge shooting + Hammer of Wrath from the Biker, so they are equal combat power yet the Biker again has Jink and T5.

 

Slaanesh Raptor is 19pts, the Unmarked Bike is again 20pts. The +1 Initiative on the Raptor ensures they will strike before most things in melee which reduces return-damage. The T5 on the bike also reduces return damage but Raptors can potentially take NO damage if they 'clear their killzone' (ie killing all models within 3" of them so that even pile-in won't let anything swing back at them at all).

 

However a Slaanesh Raptor is 19pts and a Slaanesh Biker is 22pts. Once again the Biker wins, since for 3 measly points (30pts for 10 models though) it gains a helluva lot of bonuses. So where does that leave Raptors?

 

Examining their abilities in direct comparison to Bikers, we can see there are a few tricks they can pull which the Bikers can't. If a player is determined to use Raptors instead of Bikers means they should capitalize on those abilities Bikers lack.

1. Unit Size can reach 15 models- more models means fixed-cost Icons become "better value"
   
2. Melee Concentration- smaller bases means they represent more concentrated melee ability than Bikers. Both Tactical and Strategic Concentration is a key-tenet of Close Combat. The smaller base does make them more vulnerable to templates however.
   
3. Raptors may Deep Strike.
   
4. Raptors jump over impassable terrain- important during terrain setup phase. You can metagame the terrain to favor Raptors.
   
5. Raptors can climb Ruins. Bikers can only melee on the ground-floor. Your opponent can metagame the terrain against Bikers.
   
6. Huron allows Raptors to Infiltrate.
   
7. Raptors cause Fear (not too impressive though).
   
8. Raw cheapness when Unmarked. Although this only translates to 2 models more than Unmarked Bikers for equal cost. I do not recommend Unmarked Raptors, I heavily believe Slaanesh is the best way to run them.
   

If a player doesn't utilize one or more of the above list, then they'd be better off using Bikers rather than Raptors in almost every case. Can anyone else think of things where Raptors have an edge over Bikers?

[Minsc]

Raptors have two advantages over Bikers:

 

- Free Fear.

- Slightly cheaper.

 

If taking VotLW however, one should always go for Bikers, because it only costs 1ppm for them, while it costs 2 ppm for Raptors for some reason. :rolleyes:

[Ifrit446]

Dont forget the number one advantage that Raptors get...AMAZING MODELS :rolleyes:

 

Haha but on a sidenote, I do enjoy the Raptors more since like you said: they're easier to get moving around due to Huron or Deepstriking. What I'm interested in is how people are equipping them and what experiences they've had.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

To make a bigger point of Massing Effects-- if melee is your aim, then Raptors will probably be a more prudent choice. The Bikers are SO much more flexible because they can both Melee OR Shoot, so they're still better. But if you know you are heading solely for melee, then examine below:

 

3 Squads of 10 Bikers: Slaanesh, 3 Excess Icons, Veterans: 825pts

2 Squads of 15 Raptors: Slaanesh, 2 Excess Icons, Veterans: 710pts

 

Plus with that Raptors Army-list, there is a Fast Attack slot still open.

[Sinners Red]

I would say that other than being a Night Lords player and feeling that Raptors would some what mandatory, number 4 and 5 have a big impact on my decision to have more of them than bikers. And also the ability to deepstrike while not a preferred method of insertion these days (From what I've read here in the past few days) The option to do so is great, and could keep your enemy guessing.

[techsoldaten]

Better ability to use cover. It is very hard to get bikers behind something, and I lose a lot of them to focus fire. I imagine it would be a lot easier to move a set of Raptors up the board bc of this.

[Kol Saresk]

Quick question, why would someone only use Raptors in a Night Lords themed-force? And why does a Night Lords-themed force mean the inclusion of Raptors? Why are they mandatory to a Night Lords army? More importantly, what are your sources?

 

Raptors have two advantages over Bikers:

 

- Free Fear.

- Slightly cheaper.

 

If taking VotLW however, one should always go for Bikers, because it only costs 1ppm for them, while it costs 2 ppm for Raptors for some reason. :lol:

Minsc, if you recall, even in the current fluff, Raptors from the Heresy are supposed to be rare. Actually rarer since they were rare during the Heresy and I imagine more than a few of them have died off. Partially why they are banded together into Cults and have the creed Raptors first, Cult Second, Legion third. While supposed to be the most arrogant of CSM, they are the most loyal when it comes to helping each other out.

 

On topic, I'd go with the cover and points cost. bikers can take more punishment, as pointed out by just about everyone on this subforum. But Raptors do have character for them. Although, everyone wants to use them for suicide Meltas for some reason. I'd run them with the MoS and try to coordinate them with other units, like draw enemy units into firing range of any Heavy Support options or bring them close to a CC-oriented unit and bog them down with both squads. Something like that at any rate.

[the jeske]

3 Squads of 10 Bikers: Slaanesh, 3 Excess Icons, Veterans: 825pts

2 Squads of 15 Raptors: Slaanesh, 2 Excess Icons, Veterans: 710pts

only A you wouldnt run bikers at 10 man B slanesh on bikes means no good hth lord , because of how marks work.

 

the biker units would be 3x8

while the raptors probably around 12-14 . the points difference gets a lot smaller then , even with bikers extra 2 melta guns .

and the efficiency gap is two different worlds . being able to turbo boost and having 6 melta guns instead of 4 means 3 units targeted instead of 2 . for almost the same points in this example

 

but being honest something like 3 units of bikes would only happen in high points games , most of the time bikers will cap at 2 units and so will the raptors .

 

But Raptors do have character for them

a jump pack lord/sorc ? how is that better then giving him a bike ?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

As usual you make excellent points Jeske.

 

However, Everyone understands Bikers are better. Not a soul will contest that. My intention is merely to highlight situations, builds, tactics and strategies where Raptors have unique properties.

 

30 Models intended for Melee is one of those situations. And Slaanesh or Unmarked Sorcerors are the best Force Multipliers available to the CSM. HtH Lord is not required when the opponent is -1 WS, or every friendly model is +1 Str or +1 Attack (admittedly +1 Init is not so helpful here) with re-rolls from Hatred.

 

Successful melee doesn't have to be about HtH Hero-hammer. Force Multiplication of your standard troopers works just as well or better. This opinion comes from my Blood Angels experience of course. Certain correlation exists but my CSM experience is generally low, so the Champions of Chaos rule may require more fiddling with careful maneuver than I realize.

 

 

Also, Kol_Saresk was referring to an alternate English translation of character-- "the distinctive nature of something" (aka flavor or fluffy). Haha no problems mate, simple English being a difficult language again.

[allwaysoffside]

I have to say, I’m a big bike fan in the new dex. They are just so cheap. Which means whilst it could be spam you could comfortably run 20+ bikes in a 1500pt army list with room to spare as a sort of “cult of speed”.

 

But to answer the original posters question. When do raptors have the edge over bikes. Mixes two of your reasons and negates one of them.

Huron. He’s infiltrate special rule and jump pack special rules gives you what DS does not.

 

DS with raptors is bad idea. Land some where maybe 12 inches from your target location, can’t move, can’t charge – but can shoot. No good for a none shooty unit with a 3+ save. They are going to get wasted very easily in the next turn even if they have T5. Its better to deploy in large numbers and move then up the field. In which case go bikes.

 

Infiltrate is different and better for an assault squad. You are free to do as you like. And with the raptors ability to hide behind and move over LoS blocking terrain you can position them so that they can hit any part of your enemy’s army, but they can’t hit you. That’s very much in the night lord’s book of war. They are coming, we don’t know when or where, but they are coming.

This should screw with the oppositions plans as well with a big unit of raptors sitting 15 inches from their lines. Ignore, go around, or go through? All have connotations that they might not have expected in turn 2.

 

As for unit composition etc I’d say big squad (10-15), MoS, IoE 2 meltas, champion with melta bombs and power sword. Not cheap. But it can charge into the heart of army and expect to survive a few rounds by thinning out the attacks back and FnP. The meltas are in there as the cheapest AP2 or better assault weapon to deal with TEQ’s and along with the bombs they can deal with armour and MC.

 

I’d conceder this to be to a good use of raptors and one reason they could, or even should be used over bikes. Bike can but the pressure on early. But infiltrating raptors can put the pressure on the opposition in turn one, even if they go first!

[Jonah]

Model them as Warp Talons instead?

 

Sadly as you've proven Raptors haven't been priced correctly. Still fun for friendly games but probably no good competetively, unless you're DSing 2 meltas and you don't want to use Termies/Oblits for that job;

 

3 Termies /w 2 melta = 105 pts (3 wounds, 2+/5++)

5 Raptors /w 2 melta = 115 pts (5 wounds, 3+)

2 Oblits = 140 pts (4 wounds, 2+/5++)

 

Warp Talons have been scoffed at because of their high cost and lack of 'nades. But let's break the cost down for as-they-come squads:

 

Raptor + 2 LCs = 49/51 pts

Biker Champ + 2 LCs = 53/54 pts (ish)

Talon = 32/35 pts

 

(with/without VotLW)

 

The Raptor gets grenades while the Talon gets 5++.

 

That's quite a big discount on the LCs. In fact the Talon himself only costs 2 points more than the weapons he's carrying.

 

Now consider his biggest criticism; lack of grenades. Here's a thought - don't assault guys in cover. We have other tools to deal with campers, like Baleflamers and Skalathrax.

 

Lets do some quick math with a 190-point Talon squad (VotLW, Slaanesh) smacking into a pesky 10-man tactical squad of roughly the same points: 12 attacks hit, 9 wound. That's 9 dead marines before they get to hit back. The Talons have almost eaten their points back in a single assault (against a unit twice their size).

 

I know those are ideal conditions but thats math hammer for you. So how can this work in practice? Let's look at reliable deployments:

 

• Trailing a Rhino
  
• Infiltrate with Huron or 1/6 games
  
• Outflank with Slaanesh Steed
  
• Deepstrike 12-18 inches away
  

 

The Rhino is the more likely option as they are more common in our armies, and having a Dirge next to your Talons is mega handy. Infiltrating is sort of situational but it could come up 1 in 6 games if you don't have Huron. Outflanking is the bomb if you're packing a Slaanesh Sorcerer as the Sorc can buff the Talons. Deepstriking is cool so long as there's something to DS behind and you can get the positioning right so you can assault next turn.

 

And then there's Warpflame Strike. For me Blind is a cool trick to have up your sleeve but it certainly should not be your primary method of deployment; you're quite likely to scatter on top of your enemy or for them to pass their Initiative test. Then you get rapid-fired in the face. This should only be used against models with very low Initiative like Necrons, and even then only if there aren't several other units nearby. Very, very situational.

 

So yeah, Warp Talons. They are a precision tool as opposed to the omni-tool Raptors & Bikers, but I don't think they are over-costed at all. They want to be supported - Slaanesh Sorc, Dirge Rhino, Huron, 2nd Warp Talon squad; these will all work well. You will also have to take other units for camper-busting. But I think they are a very cool unit and if you use them effectively they can be devastating.

 

And as Ifrit mentioned, they look the balls!

[Sinners Red]

Quick question, why would someone only use Raptors in a Night Lords themed-force? And why does a Night Lords-themed force mean the inclusion of Raptors? Why are they mandatory to a Night Lords army? More importantly, what are your sources?

 

I have no idea, I'm also using bikers. The main reason that the Legion was brought up is because it is the theme that I'm using for my army (which is linked to in the OP), nothing more nothing less. And It (using Night Lords) doesn't mean the inclusion of Raptors, seeing as I was the one that that said:

 

I would say that other than being a Night Lords player and feeling that Raptors would some what mandatory,

 

That's only my opinion, all it means is that if I, Sinners Red, am playing a Night Lords force, I will include Raptors. I would never think of a Night Lords player with no Raptors as not really a Night Lord, that would be silly and defeat the purpose of someone building a unique narrative or doing whatever they wanted with the army that they wanted to play.

 

As to why it is my opinion that Night Lords would use Raptors is based on the book Lord of the Night and using only the current codex the Raptors entry on page 48 has several descriptions that support that Raptors could easily be Night Lords. Example "...relishing in the fear they cause as they plummet..." "...their wearers to terrify their enemies into submission..." "The Raptors predilection for sadism and psychological warfare... Simply killing is no longer enough." "...- they will go to great lengths to see their grovelling prey's face distorted with fear..." and of course this little tid-bit "Needless to say, the ranks of the Night Lords, a Legion famous for its terror tactics, attract a great many Raptors to its banner." Also see page 12, where it has a cool picture of Night Lords, along side Raptors, while they don't have to be Night Lords, I like to think that they are. I could provide links to a few wiki pages, but that would hardly stand up in court.

 

 

Back on topic though,

I feel like Deep Striking is really not popular any more. It seems like for some armies the risk of deep striking has been lowered by things like drop pods or other special rules/transports, while for others it remains the same as it did in 4th edition (i.e. Chaos). I think that the option to deep strike is an amazing one to have, it could leave you enemy guessing but yes it could just land your unit off the table and into the dead pile. But that's where weighing your risks and advantages come into play, simply do a "Juice worth the squeeze" test or cost/benefit analyses and choose not to deep strike someplace. Not saying that deep striking is always a must. I think that the benefit outweighs the risk.

 

I also think that warp talons get the short end of the stick. Sure no frag, but that doesn't mean that they can't rip open a squad of guardsmen even another assault squad. You wouldn't send Talons after hard targets, which certainly limits the role on the battlefield but does not render them useless. I agree with Jonah on this matter.

 

I think that an opponent with strategically placed terrain could hinder bikers significantly, forcing dangerous terrain tests, and drawing them into a U or L shaped ambush.

 

And yeah the models are pretty cool and it's a pretty awesome deal for the bits, I was thinking of using a good deal of the bitz on my bikers.

[techsoldaten]

3 Squads of 10 Bikers: Slaanesh, 3 Excess Icons, Veterans: 825pts

2 Squads of 15 Raptors: Slaanesh, 2 Excess Icons, Veterans: 710pts

only A you wouldnt run bikers at 10 man B slanesh on bikes means no good hth lord , because of how marks work.

Are you sure about that?

 

The Slaaneshi Biker Lord with the Black Mace I use in my army is pretty killy in close combat. He averages around 3 wounds per turn, and has caused as many as 8. The fact he strikes first in most situations gives him a pretty big edge.

[Max_Gore]

I use Huron, so Raptors have an advantage over bikers there. I think Huron + Raptors is a pretty decent combo and fits with the NL theme.

 

Raptors are also cheaper to buy and come with great bits. Seriously, I'd buy the box just for the bits. Nice helms and shoulder pads, plus Lightning claws galore... which I prefer for my unit champs over powerswords.

 

My NL are in an escalation league I plan on running a unit of bikes and a unit of raptors. However, if I didn't take Huron or had more cash, bikes are simply better.

 

Raptors aren't bad by any means, it's just that our fast attack slot is so good now. Bikers and Heldrakes are two of our best units, so Raptors have really tough competition.

[Kol Saresk]

But Raptors do have character for them

a jump pack lord/sorc ? how is that better then giving him a bike ?

fluffwise jeske. I was not saying Raptors were better than bikers.

 

@Sinners Red: Okay fair enough. I thought you were going to go the routeof the Raptor Legion mindset, which bugs me because there is no support for it because the Raptors fluff is that they belong to no Legion. Even Zso Sahaal only had a subcompany's worth of Assault Marines back in the Heresy and that was after quite a bit of fighting.

 

Also, I think I'm giving the impression I hate Raptors because I don't like the Raptor Legion. Not true. I do look them and I like their fluff. Although if I had my choice, the Warp Talon fluff would have been the Raptor fluff and the Raptor fluff would have been the Night Lords for this Codex. Like you, I agree that the two factions have similar mindsets so it's only matural for them to get along.

[tvih]

I must say my jaw dropped when I first saw how cheap C:CSM bikers are - a whopping 12 points less than BT bikes. It's a shame they're so much better than Raptors, considering that the Raptor models look really nice. I especially like the Heresy-style jump packs, which are so much nicer than the "modern" ones. I want some (non-chaosy ones) for my BT HQs!

 

Personally basically the one and only advantage I see - from a gaming rather than looks/fluff point of view - for the Raptors over bikes is the ability to jump over terrain and other obstacles. I've always had poor results with Deep Striking, and while Infiltrate can be useful, the fact that you only get it with Huron, a HQ that I won't be using, makes it a moot point. But I suppose for those that want to use him it is a consideration.

[Kol Saresk]

Actualy Arhiman also has Master of Deception and the Warlord can get it 1/6 games unless you work it out as a house rule that you just keep it.

[tvih]

Straying a bit off-topic, but...

 

True enough about Ahriman, though I won't be using him either. I generally prefer custom HQs, and will be running Khorne Lord the vast majority of times. Might try a Nurgle Biker Lord occasionally for the giggles. Or in a big match, who knows, maybe both at once ;) Heck I've even had this nutty Warp-spawned vision of having Khorne Juggernaut Lord + Chaos spawn, Nurgle Biker Lord with Bikers and Ork Biker Warboss with Nob Bikers all in the same match for ultimate madness :) Obviously NOT a competitive list, but good stuff for giggles the first time around I reckon.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I use Raptors as deep striking melta platforms -- two squads of five, each with a pair of meltaguns. Minimal expenditure so their death or mishap isn't crippling, and I can use them to nail backfield armor like Defilers, stock Russes, or IG artillery parks. Plus, going MSU with them gives redundancy for reserve rolls and in case of bad deep strike scatter.

[Xenith]

[*]Huron allows Raptors to Infiltrate.

 

Are raptors 'infantry(jump)' or 'jump infantry' now and does either let them infiltrate? I thought it was 'infantry' units only.

[Prot]

I use Raptors as deep striking melta platforms -- two squads of five, each with a pair of meltaguns. Minimal expenditure so their death or mishap isn't crippling, and I can use them to nail backfield armor like Defilers, stock Russes, or IG artillery parks. Plus, going MSU with them gives redundancy for reserve rolls and in case of bad deep strike scatter.

 

I'm sorry but this doesn't jive with me. You start in reserves. Bikes can easily start on the table, and get just about anywhere in 2 turns, with turbo + Jink. I don't need redundancy because the unit has a good habit of living.

 

I think unless you play large games a unit of 2K or so then cannon-balling a Raptor squad is too expensive. However if this is the way you prefer to play it, I'd recommend the ol' Termicide squad. Save yourself some points, and get a bit more survivability.

 

Trust me I'm not thrilled about raptors with those beautiful new models being substandard. They are just another 'meh' unit in the new codex.

[Kol Saresk]

[*]Huron allows Raptors to Infiltrate.

 

Are raptors 'infantry(jump)' or 'jump infantry' now and does either let them infiltrate? I thought it was 'infantry' units only.

The way I've been hearing people saying it is that Master of Deception covers anything with "infantry" in its description. That includes IC like Lords and Sorcerers, SCs like Huron and Arhiman and Jump Infantry like Raptors and Jump Lords.

[Hatefires]

I think it was you just give one of the D3 infiltraites to Huron and attach him to what squad you need infiltrated, not that it actuall lets you give it to jump infantry. That is the way I have been playing it, so you have to be sneaky and quicky attach him to another unit in your movement pahse so he dosent get shot to bits on his own. Could be wrong though.

[Excessus]

'Jump Infantry' is not a unit designation in itself. They still follow the rules and regulations for 'infantry' as well as those for 'jump'. Thus being 'infantry', 'Jump Infantry' can be infiltrated by Huron/Ahriman...

[Brother Ambroz]

So yeah, Warp Talons. They are a precision tool as opposed to the omni-tool Raptors & Bikers, but I don't think they are over-costed at all. They want to be supported - Slaanesh Sorc, Dirge Rhino, Huron, 2nd Warp Talon squad; these will all work well. You will also have to take other units for camper-busting. But I think they are a very cool unit and if you use them effectively they can be devastating.

 

Perhaps they're not overcosted persay but they're far too situational, being AP-3 only without options to upgrade. Almost everything in our codex is good at killing units with 3+ or worse saves and it takes up a very valuable FA slot.