Rhinos in 6th

[The Octagon]

Hi, I've been wondering. When checking this forum, there is always someone who say that rhinos are bad, no one takes them anymore, footslogging armys etc. And I haven't got a clue. Is it because this edition is more shooty and there is no point using rhinos? Would appreciate help in this matter.

[I_Heart_69]

People don't like Rhinos as much anymore because of the new hull point and first blood system. Now they're really easy to blow up, leaving your units footslogging and giving the enemy a victory point. I haven't used them much yet, but I still like them so far.

[Olis]

I would assume it's because of the introduction of Hull Points - three glances and the rhino is dead. They're not as durable as they used to be (which wasn't great to start with, really).

[The Octagon]

Thank you, now I know that those 35 points could be used on other things. Chaos should've got a drop-pod equivilent.

[dswanick]

My list hasn't change much since 5th Ed. I still run 2-3 Rhinos & 1-2 Razorbacks. Their loss of durability is rather exaggerated. The bigger loss was the ability to charge on the turn you disembark, which hasn't affected me much as a Space Wolves player - I was disembarking, rapid-firing, and counter-charging anyways.

[Razblood]

My list hasn't change much since 5th Ed. I still run 2-3 Rhinos & 1-2 Razorbacks. Their loss of durability is rather exaggerated. The bigger loss was the ability to charge on the turn you disembark, which hasn't affected me much as a Space Wolves player - I was disembarking, rapid-firing, and counter-charging anyways.

 

Erm...you haven't been able to assault immediately after disembarking from a Rhino/Razorback since 3rd Ed :huh: (Ah the good old Rhino rush :wub: )

 

Haven't had occasion to use a Rhino in 6th yet though I may in the game I have this week, just to test it out :lol:

[pyroknight]

Rhinos are not bad so much as they are different.

 

If you use Rhinos like you used them in 5th, they don't tend to do very well. You need to think about them a little differently.

 

Even in 6th, I never take an army without at least 2 Rhinos. Even if my squad never uses the rhino I consider it points well spent. On multiple games I have been saved by a rhino. Either carrying a squad to an objective on turn 4, denying an assault to an enemy unit, or blocking an enemy troop from reaching an objective on turn 5.

[dswanick]

Erm...you haven't been able to assault immediately after disembarking from a Rhino/Razorback since 3rd Ed :wub: (Ah the good old Rhino rush :lol: )

You could if the Rhino hadn't moved that turn.

- Turn 1, Move forward as far as possible.

- Turn 2, Disembark, Shoot, Assault.

[Purge]

Erm...you haven't been able to assault immediately after disembarking from a Rhino/Razorback since 3rd Ed ^_^ (Ah the good old Rhino rush ;) )

You could if the Rhino hadn't moved that turn.

- Turn 1, Move forward as far as possible.

- Turn 2, Disembark, Shoot, Assault.

I was concerned that I was cheating for doing this.

Haven't played a 6th edition game yet, but from my point of view I like the transports to be more fragile. It keeps the game more interesting. I hated spending 3 rounds trying to bust a transport to get at the gushy centers, just because I made a few bad rolls with a melta gun.

[nurglez]

I've used rhino's a few times when playing with my chaos, and in 2 games they gave up first blood (I rolled infiltrate, and infiltrated the rhino's vs tyranids, not smart heh). In 2 more games they were great, helping to ground a flying tyrant (so I could plasma it's face off with the disembarked squad) and helping to transport a squad of cultists 18 inches towards the enemy objective, absorbing fire that could have been better used on my plague marines holding the center.

 

My current list has a landriader and 2 rhinos (one of which is empty, so I can use it to ferry about some cultists), although as I have a squad of havocs I may dedicate it to them instead (it was dedicated to the plague marine squad that uses the landraider).

 

They certainly are more vulnerable, and crew shaken carrying over to the squad does suck, along with no assaulting for a turn after leaving the vehicle, but the added movement and cover can out weigh the risk sometimes. And giving up first blood is only worth only 1 objective, and vs certain armies it isn't possible to prevent giving it up, so its not as bad as it seems ;)

[Muctar]

Rhino's are still great as long as they fit into the army. If there's only two rhinos in the entire army for vehicles then of course they will be destroyed. However if you have a lot of other vehicles that must be targeted as well then the rhinos' chance of survival is greatly increased.

 

Since the start of 6th I've continued to run the same list that I did in 5th which includes lots of AV with great success: 3 rhinos, 2 vindis, pred, and land raider redeemer. If I don't take the LRR then I add another two squads and rhinos to go with them making 5 rhinos total and a possible 8 targets with an AV, three of which are AV13 on the front. The AV13 is much harder to take down and is more of a threat, so the rhinos tend to take a lot less fire.

 

Yes, individually rhinos are easier to destroy but in the right list their survivability is still good. In addition, cover saves are easier to get for vehicles and with all vehicles getting a Flat Out move rhinos can deliver their cargo more rapidly than before. Once the squad is where is needs to be the rhino staying operational is just a bonus.

[Fibonacci]

Hull points have not changed rhinos all that much. It's not like they were all that hard to wreak before.

 

First Blood is nothing but a free VP for going first. Rhinos make it easier to get but even without them on the table, I'm getting First Blood somewhere if I have the first turn. If I do not get first turn, it's no big deal. It is much more important to capture at least 1 objective while denying all others.

 

Having to stand around one full turn soaking up enemy fire before I can close in with my CC troops on turn 3 at the earliest is the big problem for me. Their tactical use has changed. I still take a couple most of the time but not the 4 to 6 I did in 5th.

[Azash]

I think everyone freaked out and over reacted to the Hull Points issue. I think the net template lists went whole hog on the foot slogging shouting from the blog tops that armor is dead 2 hours after the BRB hit the store shelves. Think the death of armor may be a bit "Dewey defeats Truman".

 

Yes Rhino's can be glanced to death in 3 hits. In 5th they could be glanced to death in 3 hits (two Weapon Destroyed's and an Immobilized). Now it's easier to glance them to death but honestly popping or immobilizing (just as good) a rhino in 5th wasn't to damned hard. Also by comparison a Rhino has greater mobility in 6th since you can't paralyze them with glancing hits. Lot's of people like to forget how a "cant move cant shoot" rhino was just as good as a dead rhino for that round.

 

The upside of Rhino's.

- Glancing hits don't stall Rhino's mobility and advance. Mobility now has durability and flexibility while the Rhino is a little more brittle it's functionality on the table is actually more durable.

- Combat Squad's can be transported by the same Rhino! This is huge again it gives flexibility mobility.

- Still provides a great piece of cover for troops or a great barrier/obstacle for you to place in your opponents path

- Snap Firing don't under estimate the value of being able to move and fire the heavy weapon even if it's a BS 1 shot or being able to get out and fire those heavy weapons.

- Your butt is inside a tank when that daemon cursed Chaos flyer comes by and levels a flame storm cannon at you! (not sure what chaos calls it)

 

I think the last will bring some of the people back off the all foot slog all the time band wagon. A rhino with a tac squad with a ML w/ Flak I see as becoming a very scary thing in the future for fliers especially the anti infantry spec'ed fliers.

 

Most of all the Rhino suffers the same issues as all of armor in 6th. To make armor work you have to commit to armor there is no more dipping one toe in the water with a single Rhino. If you field your armor in little numbers it will be exposed and whittle down. If you commit to armor you field enough pieces that your opponent will be forced to split his fire and your survivability shoots up. So things like convoying your Rhino to the front behind a Vindicator (great tactic) using them to advance while Predators lay down fire support and draw fire again another great tactic. Inter mixing Razorback's in with the Rhino's again more fire power and it draws fire.

 

So Rhino's still work but as another poster said you just have to think of them in a different way and learn to use them in the environment 6th has created.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think that Rhinos are still useful to have, as they keep your squad not shot at for a turn or so before they are wrecked. Also, you can always pop smoke for the first turn to help your Rhinos survive longer and get your troops to where they need to be.

[Giga]

If anything, rhinos keep your infantry safe from all the AP1/2/3 templates. If you're packing a mid-to-short range army (which is what vanilla marines, blood angels, and space wolves tend to do) then being able to move 18" on turn 1 is invaluable when it comes to reaching those objectives. Also, rhinos are mobile cover for your other vehicles (such as vindicators, land raiders, etc.).

 

As people said earlier, having a few rhinos in your army isn't going to end well for rhinos. But if you're also packing LRs with assault units inside, vindicators, flyers, baal preds, furiosos, new chaos dinobots, etc., the opponent simply won't dare to focus too much of his AT fire at rhinos, or he'll end up killing a few 35 point transports and then getting owned next turn by your heavy-hitting armor.

[Validar]

in my oppinion:

 

1 rhino/razor is much worse than before

 

10 rhino/razor - still as horribly good as in 5th

 

Stacking odds still works (and, imo, is still as boring as ever.

[MagicMan]

The bad part is losing a victory point to first blood, but that will only happen half the time (if you lose the roll-off).

 

And even if you do, you can deploy second, and try to keep your rhino's out of LoS of your opponents big guns.

 

Not to mention smoke launchers + night fighting can really help you out. Rhinos/razorbacks can be pretty sweet for negating night fighting, too, with their searchlights.

[Captain Idaho]

I actually got First Blood in all my games at a recent tournament and that was going 2nd every game and having supposed weak choices in the form of a Rhino and 3 Dreads as well as Combat squads.

 

The trick was to put the Rhino directly behind the Landraider and use the 25% cover rule to get cover saves for the Dreadnoughts. Combined with Night Fighting meant I was reliably getting First Blood EVERY GAME!

 

Another great addition for Marines is the free search lights. Move 12" and target anything you want with Storm Bolters Snap Firing (a total of 36" reach, plus the opponent's movement) and you can follow it up with unrestricted fire on that targetted unit. Love it.

[Muctar]

Not to mention smoke launchers + night fighting can really help you out. Rhinos/razorbacks can be pretty sweet for negating night fighting, too, with their searchlights.

This is something I forgot to mention and fully endorse. Since the roll for night fighting comes before deployment you know to take advantage of it when you deploy.

 

If you are going first, move up 12" and find cover, or pop smoke if there's none to be found. Most likely you'll be getting a 4+ save due to smoke/obscured plus stealth. If you're playing with ruins you can even get cover from their walls plus stealth to get a nice 3+ cover save.

 

If you're going second try to deploy in such a way that vehicles are obscured and will be over 24" away after enemy movement, giving your vehicles cover plus shrouded for a 3+ save which can be improved to 2+ if they are obscured by the walls of ruins!

 

Of course searchlights will negate some of these advantages but the opposition will still have to illuminate each target they want to take down. Which means illuminating themselves in the process for your counterattack and reducing the effectiveness of some of their shooting, because searchlights activate after the vehicle has fired.

 

If you happen to be looking to shoot first turn then you can use the rhinos to do the illumination and have the big guns do the work without illuminating themselves. At that point you opponent has some difficult choices to make. Either target the rhinos who are illuminated already, or lose some effectiveness to illuminate your big guns and try to take them out.

[PaganLinuxGeek]

As a new player, learning tactics and the usefulness of each model this convo has been most informative.

 

I would just like as ask a couple questions if I might:

 

Do most of you take full (10 man) squads in each rhino and then split them up after movement?

For Example 10 tacticals in rhino. 10 man squad is split into 2 combat squads but share vehicle. Rhino drops off heavy weapon squad in/near cover, then moves forward with special weapon squad and sergeant?

 

Searchlights: As I understand it, the searchlight goes active AFTER that particular rhino fires. So your could use rhino 1's searchlight to illuminate a target, then fire using other weapons. Does use of searchlight negate moving flat out?

[Muctar]

As a new player, learning tactics and the usefulness of each model this convo has been most informative.

 

I would just like as ask a couple questions if I might:

 

Do most of you take full (10 man) squads in each rhino and then split them up after movement?

For Example 10 tacticals in rhino. 10 man squad is split into 2 combat squads but share vehicle. Rhino drops off heavy weapon squad in/near cover, then moves forward with special weapon squad and sergeant?

In objective based games what you have described is exactly what I do. Since 5 out of 6 games are objective based you'll find that you combat squad inside the rhino a lot. As for where you let the two halves off, it depends on where you needs them to be, and when. Sometimes having one combat squad deployed in the backfield with a long range heavy weapon and the other squad in the rhino pushing up with the special is the way to go. It all depends.

 

Searchlights: As I understand it, the searchlight goes active AFTER that particular rhino fires. So your could use rhino 1's searchlight to illuminate a target, then fire using other weapons. Does use of searchlight negate moving flat out?

Yes it does negate moving flat out because in order to use the searchlight the rhino must fire at the target first. Since the rhino fired it is not allowed to move flat out.

[DarkGuard]

I tried to use my old 5th Ed list in 6th, but found my biggest issue with Rhinos was my Honour Guard's inability to charge out of them.

 

However, in trying to use them as mobile bunkers for a tournament, I found they left a lot to be desired. But that's because they're no longer mobile bunkers. There are too many penalties effecting passengers in a vehicle that gets shaken or stunned. Instead, they are delivery systems, which is what they were always supposed to be. Get them to where they need to be and then get your guys out so that they can do the damage.

 

Recently, I had three Rhinos line up alongside a Vindicator and a Dread, and they lasted a lot longer, as my opponent focused on the latter two. Saturation, and a change in tactics is what's needed, because, for their points cost, Rhinos are still pretty good.

[Shaggy12009]

A rhino is the same points cost as a drop pod, so I think of them roughly the same. The pod just has a little more reach. They both are a one way trip to board position. If the rhino gets blown up, who cares? What were you expecting for 35 points anyway? I tend to like the rhino a bit more because you can use it as a fire lane blocker too. Tell your opponent "please wreck it there, I don't want you shooting between those two pieces of LoS blocking terrain". It's funny, but when I do, they almost never fire a single gun at it!

[DarkGuard]

IMO it's a flaw to think of the Rhino and Drop Pod as the same.

 

The Drop Pod is alternative deployment, it basically gives your units the option to Deep Strike, safely. Once used, it can block pathways and give cover saves to units behind, but the unit inside is now no longer as mobile, they can only walk and run, and they don't have the protection a Rhino offers. However, it can get them across the board quickly due to the Deep Strike mechanic, but an all Drop Pod army will be spread out over several turns.

 

A Rhino, however, is sustained mobility, while it's alive. It's not as "fast" as the Drop Pod, but if it's still alive you still have the option to get your unit back in and move them elsewhere, in a way giving them more reach than the Pod as you can correct your positioning and still get further. Furthermore, the army as a whole can move together, allowing you to apply concerted pressure in one location, although at the cost of "speed" and shock tactics. Of course, the Rhino is flimsy, so that has to be taken into account.

 

But you should never consider them the same. One is a transport, the other is alternative deployment.

[Shaggy12009]

IMO it's a flaw to think of the Rhino and Drop Pod as the same.

 

The Drop Pod is alternative deployment, it basically gives your units the option to Deep Strike, safely. Once used, it can block pathways and give cover saves to units behind, but the unit inside is now no longer as mobile, they can only walk and run, and they don't have the protection a Rhino offers. However, it can get them across the board quickly due to the Deep Strike mechanic, but an all Drop Pod army will be spread out over several turns.

 

A Rhino, however, is sustained mobility, while it's alive. It's not as "fast" as the Drop Pod, but if it's still alive you still have the option to get your unit back in and move them elsewhere, in a way giving them more reach than the Pod as you can correct your positioning and still get further. Furthermore, the army as a whole can move together, allowing you to apply concerted pressure in one location, although at the cost of "speed" and shock tactics. Of course, the Rhino is flimsy, so that has to be taken into account.

 

But you should never consider them the same. One is a transport, the other is alternative deployment.

 

You are right except that I don't expect the rhino to last. I like to shoot them first since they're low armor and will hurt my opponent's mobility. I use the rhino to move flat out (18" total movement) on the first turn and outflank my target. I expect them to die shortly thereafter.

 

You said pods can block pathways and give cover saves to units behind. As I mentioned before, that's what I do with rhinos too except rhinos totally block LoS instead of giving a cover save. The only deciding factor for me is do I want to get close/control a flank, or get behind the lines? My wolf army runs a pod and a pair of rhinos and both vehicles have the same usefulness by mid game. One is immobile, the other is destroyed.