Gideon999 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Hey guys, I was looking in my BRB and trying to find out if the old 5th ed rule for cover saves in area terrain were still current. Specifically about how close models in the terrain have to be from the edge to make sure that when they fire OUT of the terrain, they dont grant a cover save to the target. In 5th ed as long as they were within 2 inches of the edge, they coudl fire and the target would not get a cover save. Is this still the case? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Speaking strictly RAW - a model only gets Cover Saves from being 25%+ obscured (even by Area Terrain). So models don't get a Cover Save from being in Area Terrain if not Obscured. And would certainly not get a Cover Save if the Firer were shooting out of or through Area Terrain. That said, I believe the RAI is that being in Area Terrain is sufficient to offer a model a Cover Save of 5+, but I find nothing to indicate that shots out of or through Area Terrain would grant that save, unless the model were also obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon999 Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Thats what I thought too. I believe the RAI is that infantry get a 5+ for just standing in it, though walkers etc are subject to the 25% rule. I can't see anywhere about their target getting a cover save if yo shoot through area terrain though, close to the edge or not. Since I usually play against assault based armies this is kind of important since if I can stick my gunline at the back of a terrain piece instead of having to stick within 2" of the front of it, I can better control charge ranges against me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkGuard Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Bear in mind that some terrain types offer increased cover saves, such as ruins. I'm not too sure about the firing out of it though, I'm going to take a look when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon999 Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Thanks! I appreciate any help since this is driving me nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured." (BRB, bottom of pg. 91) Basically, any model in area terrain receives the cover save, no cover save is given to units outside of the area terrain. So, in the OP's example, if your unit is in area terrain and shooting at a unit that is not, the targetted unit does not receive a cover save from the area terrain you are shooting through. Area terrain in game is a way of modeling tall grass such as wheat or a low depression like a rice field, providing a minimal of obscurement to those in it, but no cover to those outside of it. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured." (BRB, bottom of pg. 91) Basically, any model in area terrain receives the cover save, no cover save is given to units outside of the area terrain. So, in the OP's example, if your unit is in area terrain and shooting at a unit that is not, the targetted unit does not receive a cover save from the area terrain you are shooting through. Area terrain in game is a way of modeling tall grass such as wheat or a low depression like a rice field, providing a minimal of obscurement to those in it, but no cover to those outside of it. SJ Thanks, that's the part I couldn't find - but than again I was looking in the Cover Saves rules on Pg.18. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephane4985 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Is it different for a forest though? If you look at pg 102 in the forest rules, they are saying that if you have to trace your line of sight though a forest, the target gets a +5 cover save. My guess is that if you are inside the forest, you do have to trace your line of sight through the forest, unless you are right on the edge. Am I understanding it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerbjørn Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Is it different for a forest though? If you look at pg 102 in the forest rules, they are saying that if you have to trace your line of sight though a forest, the target gets a +5 cover save. My guess is that if you are inside the forest, you do have to trace your line of sight through the forest, unless you are right on the edge. Am I understanding it right? Ha! I believe that depends on the forest. If your terrain has trees that are stuck to the base, then, presumably, true line of sight is in effect and it depends on whether you can see the target and whatever is in the forest would get 5+. And if the trees can be moved around, then it is 5+ and you can always shoot. Did that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Is it different for a forest though? If you look at pg 102 in the forest rules, they are saying that if you have to trace your line of sight though a forest, the target gets a +5 cover save. My guess is that if you are inside the forest, you do have to trace your line of sight through the forest, unless you are right on the edge. Am I understanding it right? Yes, and the reason is that Pg.102 specifically tells you that firing through Forest Terrain gives a target unit a 5+ Cover save. So if you had a 1' square piece of Area Terrain it would not provide a Cover save when fired through unless it had been defined as Forest, then it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 This highlights the importance of defining your terrain: a flat circle of brown card could represent area terrain, being waist high grass that grants no obstruction to shooting out, but those inside it can crouch, gaining an obscuring benefit, even if it doesn't slow any bullets! The same piece of card, however, with a few plastic trees, once agreed by both players as an official forest as per page 102, now DOES interfere with your shot; heck, you could even play it as forest without the trees, as long as you remember! Get into the habit of playing every piece of terrain you own the same way each time, be it area, forest, mysterious etc, ruin, intact building or bunker etc; OR make up some little notelets or markers for each piece to remind yourself what it represents today. I'm pleased about the change, now muddy puddles and tank craters are even nicer to hide in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon999 Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 Ok, so the consensus is that if you are shooting out of area terrain that you dont give any cover saves to the target (assuming there is nothing else between you and the target). Interesting, and very useful for the shooting based armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Ok, so the consensus is that if you are shooting out of area terrain that you dont give any cover saves to the target (assuming there is nothing else between you and the target). Interesting, and very useful for the shooting based armies. Correct, however forests are an exception to this rule (because of their specific rules). Shooting out of them gives the enemy a cover save. And forests eat you. Apparently they're no longer good cover in 6th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Ok, so the consensus is that if you are shooting out of area terrain that you dont give any cover saves to the target (assuming there is nothing else between you and the target). Interesting, and very useful for the shooting based armies. Correct, however forests are an exception to this rule (because of their specific rules). Shooting out of them gives the enemy a cover save. And forests eat you. Apparently they're no longer good cover in 6th... Maybe. Shooting THROUGH them gives a cover save. It then depends on how your group defines "through." Here we say that part way does not equal through so shooting out of woods does not confer a cover save. In a similar manner, this rule does not give a cover save to shooting at a unit inside the woods since it does not go through the woods. However, the unit will still get a save for being inside area terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 You're still shooting through woods. If the line of fire passes over the boundaries of the forest whatsoever, 5+ cover save. Big change I didn't even notice until this thread. Thanks, but no thanks! :rolleyes: So: - Two models on opposite sides of the forest = cover save. - Shooter in forest and target is not = cover save. - Shooter not in forest and target is = cover save. - Shooter and target are in forest = cover save. Also note, this applies to vehicles as I read it. "If a special rule...makes a vehicle obscured even if in the open, this is a 5+ cover save..." The special rules for the forest say it gains the save no matter what, soo...discuss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Heart_69 Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 You're still shooting through woods. If the line of fire passes over the boundaries of the forest whatsoever, 5+ cover save. Big change I didn't even notice until this thread. Thanks, but no thanks! :P So: - Two models on opposite sides of the forest = cover save. - Shooter in forest and target is not = cover save. - Shooter not in forest and target is = cover save. - Shooter and target are in forest = cover save. Also note, this applies to vehicles as I read it. "If a special rule...makes a vehicle obscured even if in the open, this is a 5+ cover save..." The special rules for the forest say it gains the save no matter what, soo...discuss! Useful if you have a dozer blade on it, otherwise there's a 1/6 chance you'll be immobilized and lose a hull point. And you have to not care if the thing you're shooting at also gets a cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 "If a special rule...makes a vehicle obscured even if in the open, this is a 5+ cover save..." The special rules for the forest say it gains the save no matter what, soo...discuss! Can you cite the source for the quote? Forest's don't make a vehicles "Obscured even if in the open", so vehicles would still be bound by the requirement that they be 25% obscured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 You're still shooting through woods. If the line of fire passes over the boundaries of the forest whatsoever, 5+ cover save. Pick up the OED, look up "through" and read definition 1. With this, RAW means that the line of sight must enter one side and go out the other for it to go through the forest. However, if you read definition 4 (or 5) then you see where a line within the boundary is going through the forest. so if you are in the forest shooting at another target in the forest you are shooting through the forest. We could say that since RAW is defined both ways that it is a toss up. Dice off or go with RAI. But I don' see it that way. In all of the definitions for through, not one includes passing from within to without. Through is either wholly contained or travels from one end to the other across the whole. No definition of "through" supports granting cover when shooting from inside a forest to a target outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm going to side with Seahawk here: if you try and run through a wall it hurts long before you reach the other side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I'm going to side with Seahawk here: if you try and run through a wall it hurts long before you reach the other side... In which case you ran into the wall, not through it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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