Nurgle Gurgle

[spartan249]

Yet another monster has sprung from Pandora's Box with the inclusion of allies in 6th, and this list has come to the forefront alongside the flamer/screamer spam from daemons. Unfortunately, unlike Flamer/Screamer Spam, I have no idea how GKs can counter this threat while still retaining all comer effectiveness.

 

I'm sure some of us have already run into this kind of list: Bring IG with an infantry blob and vendettas, then fill the rest out with nurgle daemons and Epidemius. This results in a situation where all the buffs from Epidemius are activated very early in the game, making both killing plaguebearers almost impossible and assaulting them basically suicide.

 

How do you other guys confront this situation? I'm at a loss, as GKs don't have ready access to S10 ranged firepower and are unable to engage them in close combat. Winning on objectives is a nightmare, as they can sit on objectives and get the cover save alongside the 3+ FNP while simultaneously able to repel any assault we launch short of a Henchmen assault unit from hell.

 

Only real option I see is a Manticore Battery or Leman Russ Demolisher Squadron... and that's kind of sad IMO.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

No model may take FnP against Force Weapons, even if they have EW. So that means GK out of of all codicies have the tools to fight Epidemius Tally-lists.

 

Also, with IG allies how exactly does the Tally climb? Only kills made by models with Mark of Nurgle increase the Tally.

 

IMO, this is the real Tally-list threat: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=263712

[spartan249]

I haven't payed too much attention to Daemons, but what I'm hearing is that they are using some sort of maelstrom/nova attack to kill off the IG blob, as they count as enemy units as well.

 

In addition, getting anything into close combat with a squad of dudes who wound on a 2+ and ignore armor saves is pretty much a death sentence for most GK squads (even paladins will fall fighting an equivalent points value of plaguebearers, as draigo and a stave won't protect them forever), and all GK shooting focuses on weight of dice, which is of limited usefulness against them.

 

Well... the problem with force weapons is that Swords are too weak to put on enough wounds to matter, as are Halberds. We also can't activate force weapons until we inflict an unsaved wound, which means we have to make it through the FnP first at least once. Hammers go at I1, which means that they're striking first, and that doesn't bode well for the unit being hit.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Not to thread-jack, I'm sure you can find this thread in the OR, but Feel No Pain is not a save. So you can activate Force Weapon before FnP roll, hence disallowing it to be made at all. This ruling is in heavy contention across the internet however.

 

Nurgle Models won't ignore Armor Saves unless Nurgle Models kill 20+ models. The 'nova type weapon' is the Typhus ability only usable in melee, and its once per game. He is not allowed to assault the Cultists directly. Some players have discussed buying a Quadgun, then Typhus assaults the 'neutral' Quadgun then lays down his Str4 AP2 large blast centered on himself that will splash damage onto the nearby Cultists. However it's once per game and its not really going to kill more than ~12 models. It does help the Tally get going though. If you have an OSR then you can hit them pre-emptively to deny bodies from getting killed by Typhus' later on, since they will likely deploy clustered up ready for the ploy.

 

OH yea that reminds me, Typhus is CSM, Epidemius is C:D, and IG are three codicies. So its not IG+Daemons to worry about at all. Its CSM+Daemons. Tyhus is killing Cultists not IG blob. No Vendettas or IG gunline here.

 

The Tally also doesn't start counting until Epidemius is on the table. So if the the opponent rolls his un-favored Daemon contingent, the Tally will not start counting until Turn2+.

 

Also, most Nurgle stuff is I3 so striking first with AP3 and denying FnP--- honestly GK have an easier time with Tally-lists than the rest of us poor sods playing anything else.

 

EDIT: Ok I tried it out. I got a Quadgun, then took a 40mm base assaulting it, then piled as many 25mm bases around the 40mm as possible. Result was 23 bases would be hit by a large blast centered on the 40mm. This leaves Typhus attached to those Cultists squatting in his own deployment zone. Not a very effective use of a 230pt model. Although I suppose he can man the quadgun afterwards.... lol.

 

OH yea that reminds me, Tyhus is CSM, Epidemius is C:D, and IG are three codicies. So its not IG+Daemons to worry about at all. Its CSM+Daemons.

 

So the player is spending 330 pts+ in order to gain ~15.33 kills for the Tally. Pretty great if he's got more objectives than you. But if he's the one who has to go claim objectives, I'm not sure it'll be very successful.

 

Not to underplay the power of the threat-- I just think Plague Marines, Nurgle Oblits and Nurgle Havocs are a bigger version of the threat. Typhus+Cultists is not needed, just a dead 330pts.

[BrotherWasted]

The problem is that Feel No Pain has exactly the same timing as Force Weapon activation.

[spartan249]

Hmm, it certainly isn't a save. I didn't think of it like that.

 

Depending on how FnP order of operations is resolved, tally lists might not have as much bite. Perhaps I was overreacting, as I've been seeing other very competent guys getting steamrolled by a tally list that showed up.

 

It looks to me that the trick is centered around Epidemius's ability rather then Typhus's ability. Getting a 50 man IG blob hit by one or two Aura of Decays seems to me to be the trick of choice.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

It looks to me that the trick is centered around Epidemius's ability rather then Typhus's ability. Getting a 50 man IG blob hit by one or two Aura of Decays seems to me to be the trick of choice.

Aura of Decay? Lol I suppose that might work. It's a ranged attack with aura of 6" from shooter at Str2 AP- (pretty underwhelming). Except it's going to take awhile to get it set up, since the Daemons have to deepstrike and doing so within Mishap-range of the IG will cause problems. Pretty much making a Skyshield Pad mandatory in order to get the tally running quickly. If you play in an area that allows Skyshield, then oh well. But many areas and tournies disallow Fortress and Skyshield.

 

Plus, wounding on 5+ then IG take 5+ saves will not kill as many as you'd think. You'd have to take at very least 2, if not many more Auras of Decay. And those IG are taking up important room on top of the Skyshield.

 

Also, the Plague Bearers themselves are super slow. Can't run. Slow and Purposeful suckssss. If they deepstrike to get close to objectives, then GK can assault them. If they try to stay behind IG screens then they'll have trouble crossing the board.

 

Once again, the list is simply awesome on Defense but I see it sorely lacking in Offensive Maneuver capability. They're gonna have to throw in Flamers and Screamers too. All these points add up, and dilute what the list is trying to do. You've only got so many points. Try building it yourself-- you'll see. Epidemius is 110pts (has DecayAura), then additional Heralds w/DecayAura are 65pts each. Plus 250pts of IG that they are trying to kill for you, plus Skyshield at 75pts. So you're looking at 575pts of deadweight in their list. Hell even Epidemius+Typhus+20 Cultists with Quadgun is 530pts.

 

With IG, only one of two codicies is benefitting from the Tally. With CSM, both codicies are benefitting so there's some synergy to work with there. I still think Tally-Daemons+IG is far less scary than Nurgle-CSM+Tally-Daemons.

 

The Nurgle-CSM aren't deadweight, they don't need Typhus just a Nurgle Lord to make Plague Marines Troops. Nurgle Havocs and Nurgle Obliterators are good even before the Tally benefits. Plus Plague Marines with Tally are 3+/FnP(3+) which is far scarier than 5++/FnP(3+). And Plague Marines can take 2 plasmaguns for only 5-man squad. In this case, a fully functioning list is made with only a minimum selection of Epidemius+Plaguebearers escort (achieveable at as low as 185pts) in order to actually generate the Tally.

 

PLUS Nurgle Bikers. They won't have FnP, but T6 is pretty decent. Also, once 20 models are dead then both their shooting and their melee attacks ignore armor. Ditto for autocannon Nurgle-Havocs. NOW I'M AFRAID lol

[spartan249]

The viability of assault changes the moment they become able to ignore armor, and outside of that, GKs don't have much in the way of answers.

 

In any case, I suppose I'll just have to face it myself to get a good grip on the situation. I just don't think my Strike spam will be up to the task.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd probably run Flyer Heavy.

 

2 x Storm Ravens, and as many cheap allied Flyers that I'm not allowed to discuss or suggest (in a thread about allies we're not allowed to discuss either!) as I can fit in.

[adamv6]

Drop the CSM with the Mark of Nurgle attached as your first priority. Most players in my local area surround Epi with nurglings, making it almost impossible to stick a dreadknight in his face.

 

It stopped the tally growing when I played against a Nurgle CSM & Daemon list. My LRR and Incinerator Purifiers worked great on the plaguebearers.

[L30n1d4s]

Without going into allies, GKs have access to the following S10 weapons:

 

Shooting:

-Orbital Strike Relay (Lance Strike)

-Conversion Beamer (when shot at 42-72")

-Inquisatorial Henchman Warband with 8+ Psykers -- Psyker Barrage is then S10 AP1 Large Blast

-Graviton Beamer (Valeria, one shot only)

 

Close Combat:

-NDHs with Hammerhand activated

-Nemesis Doomfists (on Dreadnoughts and DreadKnights)

-Draigo's Titan Sword (when attacking a unit containing at least one Psyker or Daemon)

 

Now, most of these are kind of obscure, less-used weapons in the GK arsenal, but I think they still offer some viable options for taking out T5, FNP models in an efficient manner.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you kill the Tallyman, doesn't the Tally bonus go away? Assassinating him is pretty clutch then.

 

As for wiping out the PM's and Oblits, I'd use a combination of plasma cannon, lascannon and force weapon charges. Oblits will probably require either a DK flanking or a Stormraven+Death-Cult drop into them.

 

FYI, force weapons cause ID when activated. Thus, if you succeed on the psychic test, he's dead. FNP is not a save, thus the 'unsaved' part of the test kicks in when they can't take armour (and thus suffer a wound). You then activate, and thus ignore FNP. Of course if you fail, he gets FNP. Simple.

 

It's a powerful list, but if you kick off the supporting elements (Tallyman, key fire support like Oblits or Havoks), it's just a Plague Marine list.