Is there a case for minimum upgrade CSM squads?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I've been keeping up with the new codex discussion on these forums, and I am seeing the trend of extremely expensive Chaos Marine squads. Squads with marks, icons and champion gear are average a good ~275 points depending on the mark/icon. And that's not counting a rhino. In the previous codex, we were paying ~250 points WITH the rhino. Are all these upgrades efficient?

 

For a close combat squad, I have no doubt that the extra points for CCWs and VOTLW is worthwhile. But now that we're in 6th, we have the opportunity to fire our bolters at 24 inches, no matter what. We can make lists totally focused on ranged weaponry. In such lists, it may be worth sacrificing our melee abilities in order to maximize ranged potential.

 

I want to discuss the viability of the dirt cheap 10 man squad with nothing but double plasma guns. CCWs, VOTLW and champion CC upgrades are efficient for their cost, but not if you don't intend to ever see melee. If your goal is to make a list that maximizes shooting potential (which no longer means a static gunline thanks to move and rapid fire at 24 inches), then is it worth dumping all your melee in order to give you a better chance of reaching that sweet spot of ranged critical mass?

 

The squad in question is a mere 160 points. That's much below the ~250 range we are used to our standard marine squads falling into. And more, you can give this squad a rhino loaded up with extra guns to serve as a mobile fire platform, LOS blocker, and objective denier and STILL be far below 250 pts. This style of squad and rhino would be used to create a list similar to loyalist razorback spam, but with less of the firepower from the vehicle and more from the squad.

 

For this sort of army to work, everything in the army has to have ranged potential. Plenty of elites and fast can have nasty range and still have good enough melee to provide counter-charge support for the marine squads (or you can just let them die since they are so cheap and you have so many.) I'm thinking cheap combi weapon terminators and bikes, and then the usual havocs or oblits in heavy support.

 

Could a list like this work? Or are chaos marines still best in the hybrid role?

[Megalodon]

Well, I'd say yes it will work, but I think VotLW is worth its points and consideration. I have been running two types of CSM squads, 10 strong duel plasma, VotLW and 10 strong plasma, autocannon, VotLW, both types usually have Champs with Chain Axes only for the edge against horde armies. They point out under 190pts: 188 for the 2x plasma and 183 for the pg/ac squad. I have been running two of each on foot to fill out my troops choices at 2k and so far they have been much more efficient than the tricked out squads were. I have abandoned Rhinos due to them giving up First Blood almost every game.

[the jeske]

I want to discuss the viability of the dirt cheap 10 man squad with nothing but double plasma guns. CCWs, VOTLW and champion CC upgrades are efficient for their cost, but not if you don't intend to ever see melee

other armies do it cheaper and better. 10 naked GH with 2 plas are better then 10 naked csm with 2 plasma. there is also the problem of objective contesting which offten does make us end up in melee and the fact that against some armies we are safer in melee then in hth [iG/Tau for example] .

 

This style of squad and rhino would be used to create a list similar to loyalist razorback spam, but with less of the firepower from the vehicle and more from the squad.

only unlike razor arments , the havocks in the rhinos would do nothing to flyers and unlike marine mecha or even MSU when our dudes run or worse get broken in hth they are done for. playing csm without hth upgrades would be playing SW horde only without ultragrit , terminator squad leader , drop pods and ATKNF . getting a DP and dakka fiends in return is a rather small gain over SW lists , specialy when they can build their own DPs too.

[Lepaca]

Agreed, Chaos can't do MSU mech spam very well.

However I am still unsure about what an optiomal troop setup would look like. Care to enlighten me Jeske?

[minigun762]

I think going with ubergrit is typically too expensive for basic CSMs. Most cult options or elites choices either have ubergrit already or can't get it. The only cult that doesn't have it naturally is noise marines but they can get it cheaper than CSMs.

 

In my eyes, this means you're gearing up your CSMs with either bolters and plasma or BP/CCW and melta or flamers. As far as upgrades, I would consider VotLW to be primarily a LD upgrade and so would take it even for bolter marines.

[Kol Saresk]

I think going with ubergrit is typically too expensive for basic CSMs. Most cult options or elites choices either have ubergrit already or can't get it. The only cult that doesn't have it naturally is noise marines but they can get it cheaper than CSMs.

Unless you're the NM champ, when which case you don't get a pointy stick with your ubergrit. :)

In my eyes, this means you're gearing up your CSMs with either bolters and plasma or BP/CCW and melta or flamers. As far as upgrades, I would consider VotLW to be primarily a LD upgrade and so would take it even for bolter marines.

Would you suggest any Marks to go with either of these squads or just leave them as is? If I had a go, I'd think the only one worth giving would be MoS to the BP/CCW squad. I guess MoN for the Plasma, but it doesn't seem right.

 

Also, out of curiosity Drudge, what are you loading the Rhino with?

[wargame insomniac]

I tried MoN on twin PG with no CC special weapons for AC. I liked it. Fairly durable for price.

 

For choppy squad I like 2 Meltaguns for nice cheap Assault weapon so can still charge after shooting. Gives more options vs AT and 2+ AS too. I went with MoK and Power Fist for AC. The other option for me is MoS with Power Sword for AC. No point going for MoS vs Necrons but I certainly want to try it vs other armies.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Also, out of curiosity Drudge, what are you loading the Rhino with?

 

In the one test game I've played so far, I gave a pair of rhinos the full gunboat loadout. Second combi-bolter, havoc launcher, gargoyles, and a combi melta. I ran them up the field and used them to block LOS, harass infantry, and discourage vehicles from trying to pass. This loadout costs 67 points and gives them enough offensive power that your opponent can't ignore them, while still being fairly cheap. And since the marine squad isn't actually in them, shooting them isn't an obvious choice at all. My opponent was DE, so his infantry was getting absolutely wrecked by the 3 bolters and havoc.

[SamaNagol]

If you are taking CSM troops I am convinced that 'Grey Hunters++' are the best version.

 

10 CSM (4 with bolters 5 with BP/BG/CCW) with 2 Plasmaguns, VOTLW, MoK and Icon of Vengeance, Champ with L Claw and bolter.

 

Sure it is expensive but it will actually beat GHs in combat and is a Fearless 3+ unit with Counter Charge.

[tvih]

Well, a full (20 models) pimped up squad of CSM with 2x Plasma, VotLW, MoN, IoV and a power weapon for the champ comes out at 458 points, that's basically 23 points per model. It's quite a bit, but at least as long as you manage not to get your IoV model killed, pretty good considering what they carry. At least when I compared to my barebones BT Initiates. Still, for the same points cost you could get 35 "naked" CSM, or 30 models when adding CCW... and so forth.

 

Also, a pimped 10-man squad comes out at 268 points. That's basically 27 points per model, which is already quite nasty as you'd get twice as many non-pimped models with the price! I had been planning on more pimped models, but considering I'll probably have to field a CSM squad (or squads, if I get more models at some point) at close proximity to my Predators in order to tackle any wyches and the like who try to come assault them, aside from a CCW I think I won't be upgrading them that much.

[minigun762]

Would you suggest any Marks to go with either of these squads or just leave them as is? If I had a go, I'd think the only one worth giving would be MoS to the BP/CCW squad. I guess MoN for the Plasma, but it doesn't seem right.

 

I'm torn on the marks. Naturally Tzeentch is pretty horrible. Khorne is actually a solid replacement for berserkers, considering you have access to special weapons.

 

I think most people will be taking MoS not to much for the +1I but to get FnP. It's fairly expensive and I'm not sure why you'd do this over just using plague marines, but it is an option. Just using MoS would be best for BP/CCW squads since I5 is only useful in close combat.

Nurgle is almost always useful, for shooting or assault squads but runs the same issue with plague marines.

 

 

EDIT: I should step back and say that I don't think that CSMs are bad and I think that overall, markless ones are best. I just feel like you're better off using as cheap special weapon squads.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I think most people will be taking MoS not to much for the +1I but to get FnP. It's fairly expensive and I'm not sure why you'd do this over just using plague marines, but it is an option. Just using MoS would be best for BP/CCW squads since I5 is only useful in close combat.

Nurgle is almost always useful, for shooting or assault squads but runs the same issue with plague marines.

 

It's cheaper than plague marines by a significant amount, is +1 initiative instead of -1, and doesn't require a nurgle lord to make them troops. Seems like a lot of reasons to me :)

[minigun762]

It's cheaper than plague marines by a significant amount, is +1 initiative instead of -1, and doesn't require a nurgle lord to make them troops. Seems like a lot of reasons to me :)

 

I'll give you the Nurgle lord and initiative reasons. They are cheaper but they also lack fearless which brings the point totals quite close.

[Kol Saresk]

Well a Ten Man Squad with MoS, dual Plasma, übergrit and Icon of Vengeance(for Fearless) is 235 points.(I think I did that right) In comparison, a ten man PM squad woth Dual Plasma is 270 points(if I did my math right). There's an advantage just in points cost right there. Now on contrast, both Plague Marines and Chosen can deploy five man squads with dual weapons at 150 points and 120 points respectively. Although I imagine most people would choose Plague Marines over Chosen hands down since Chosen lost their Infiltrate rule.

[Agerjag]

170(180) - 10 with two plas (with Vet)

 

195(205) - 10 with MoK, double melta, PW on champ, trade for ccw (with Vet)

 

These are the two squads I primarily run. One for objective taking and one for objective defending. I most use the cheap double plas squad. Veteran of the long war is good for leadership if you have the points. There is not alot of reason to take more bells and whistles. Fearless is too expensive, Ld 10 is fine. I Usually run the second squad until is is in range so no need for bolters really.

[RapatoR]

Well I prefer cheaper squads. 230 pts is my limit. I believe that real option to shine in MSU filed are havocs (115 for 5 man squad with four meltaguns 120 with VotLW) classical termicide or chosen (130 for 5 man squad with 4 meltaguns, 140 with VotLW gets more useful multiplied by fielding Abby)

 

Its pity that our champs can't take specialist or heavy weapons. That would open up some possibilities for MSUs. however you can get champ that extra combi-bolter or combi-weapon.

[zyl-]

Well a Ten Man Squad with MoS, dual Plasma, übergrit and Icon of Vengeance(for Fearless) is 235 points.(I think I did that right) In comparison, a ten man PM squad woth Dual Plasma is 270 points(if I did my math right). There's an advantage just in points cost right there. Now on contrast, both Plague Marines and Chosen can deploy five man squads with dual weapons at 150 points and 120 points respectively. Although I imagine most people would choose Plague Marines over Chosen hands down since Chosen lost their Infiltrate rule.

 

Well the plague marines can't lose fnp to a snipe shot, have t5, and plague knives. Also, they are more likely to be taken in units of 7 than 10. It's a bit of a hard comparison to make for me.

[nurglez]

7 Plague marines is the magic number, and comes out at 168 points. +2 plasma is 198 points, T5, fnp, ubergrit and 2 plasma + fearlessness.

 

After reading this threat I've been wondering on the effectiveness of a MSU chosen force, led by Abaddon of course. several 5 man squads with a plasma and autocannon/lascannon (ah memories), and a few 6-10 man squads in rhinos with 5 specials and a combi weapon champion.

 

Only issue would be a lack of infiltrating/outflanking, which really helps the special spam squad get the drop on enemies...

[Kol Saresk]

Take Huron with Abaddon?

[minigun762]

For Chosen spamming, I'd really consider taking rhinos just for mobile terrain. Hide your squads behind them and use the rhinos as mobile walls.

 

On a non-related note, I'm starting to consider taking naked champions for most troop squads. You're going to be forced to challenge something and it is quite likely you'll be up against something that will spank you with or without a power weapon, so I'll treat him more as a sacrifice. I'm sure on the idea yet but I am considering it.

[Megalodon]

On a non-related note, I'm starting to consider taking naked champions for most troop squads. You're going to be forced to challenge something and it is quite likely you'll be up against something that will spank you with or without a power weapon, so I'll treat him more as a sacrifice. I'm sure on the idea yet but I am considering it.

Yeah I agree with you there I have abandoned all "power" type weapons on my Champs due the the CoC rule. I have however been testing out chain axes in my all comers list to put the hurt on Xenos squads.

[Azekai]

On a non-related note, I'm starting to consider taking naked champions for most troop squads. You're going to be forced to challenge something and it is quite likely you'll be up against something that will spank you with or without a power weapon, so I'll treat him more as a sacrifice. I'm sure on the idea yet but I am considering it.

Yeah I agree with you there I have abandoned all "power" type weapons on my Champs due the the CoC rule. I have however been testing out chain axes in my all comers list to put the hurt on Xenos squads.

I am also using naked champs . . . talk about law of unintended consequences.

GeeDub: "Champions of chaos have to fight in challenges, so tool up and then you will get wacky upgrades if you win!"

Players: "Eh, that sounds like an inefficient use of points. I think I am gonna let him die and bring another plasmagun."

GeeDub: ". . ."

[tvih]

Speaking of Chosen and plasma, I only now realized you could actually have a squad with 5 plasma guns and a combi-plasma *insert a "mother of god" meme pic here* :) If only there were multi-part plastic Chosen for easy weapon swaps. The DV Chosen are awesome, but all but two have the power weapon option already. And fielding them as such is a pain with no assault vehicles. A bunch of plasma chosen with a Rhino, on the other hand... :)

[nurglez]

Take Huron with Abaddon?

 

If you include Abaddon he has to be the warlord, so no dice.

 

Yes, you can take 6 chosen and have the champion with a combi weapon, so 12 plasmagun shots within 12 inches, or 6 melta gun shots. Best used with Huron or Ahriman though.

 

5 chosen with a plasmagun and autocannon is 115 points, plasma and lascannon is 125, and an extra 10 points to give them LD10. 4 squads like that would be around 500 points...

[Kol Saresk]

Why does Abaddon have to be Warlord?