Are you having success with 'cult troops'?

[Prot]

I'm trying not to commit to any one army ideal right now. I'm trying diverse lists, settling on one or two -must have- units per 1500pts.

 

Along the way I'm trying to use Cult troops. Aside from my first game, taking actual Khorne Berzerkers, I've since replaced them with vanilla csm and MoK. To me the Berzerkers seemed like the best 'deal' on Cult infantry. Eventually I removed all marks, all icons, all the 'fun' stuff to make room for more cost effective lists.

 

Since I've cut them from the list I've been trying to make a solid, competitive 1500pts where I use a Cult unit as a troop by taking either an iconic HQ, or a very bland HQ with the corresponding mark to make the Cult unit in question a troop.

 

Every time I do this I cut the cult troop from the list!

 

Basically I've played almost all the popular legions at one point or another over the last 10+ years... except 1K sons. So this time around I thought it would give me new motivation.... Termies with 4++, nasty anti-marine troops with 1K sons.

 

The problem is I find the list with 2-3 units of these cult troops feels too small, and lacking in other areas like Heavy Support.

 

So what has been your experience with the new Cult Troops/Elites? Are you making a competitive go at it with a full cult style troop choice? Do you find you have to mix it up? Or like me do you end up stripping all marks/toys off of your troops to make the list a little stronger? Do you think this is a realistic goal at 1500 points?

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm side question that is somewhat related to this. Could you try taking them as Elites? It strikes me that a lot of this Codex seems to be rather situational, like Possessed and Power Lances. So maybe the Cult Troops are similar to. Everyone wants them to be Troops but maybe they should be tried out in the Elites slot? Just food for thought.

[Verythrax Draconis]

I'm thinkering with lists having NMs and/or PMs, but I just can't imagine them being cost-effective as troops, I will stick with them as elites. I would just use 1 or squads of them in a list, for some specific use. Usually the CSMs and cultists seems to be a better option.

[Xenith]

Both HQ and Cult need to gel with the army. There's no point buying a HQ just to make the cult troops, you actually need a use for the HQ.

 

Plagues are great line holders, better holding the midfield, but they need to score. If your list cannot fit in another reason for a nurgle lord, then use other scoring units.

 

Cult troops are also better at working in smaller units than regular CSM due to fearless, try cutting down their sizes.

[Redtoof]

As primarily an ork player, to me noise marines are absolutely brutal. Even a small unit has the potential to gut a unit of boyz over a couple of turns with those sonic weapons. To my mind they are the only cult unit that does something different from the rest of the army, there's nothing else that does quite so much damage to ork boyz or similar units at range.

[minigun762]

Oddly enough, I'm seeing the opposite concern. I can't find a good enough reason to take basic CSMs when the cult options are superior and most of the lord builds are superior with marks, so they're worth the additional points.

 

In my eyes, plague marines are still the Chaos standard for troops.

[techsoldaten]

I can't speak much for how to choose cult troops at 1500 points, since 9/10 times I am playing at 2000. However, I am having great success with 10 man Noise Marine units carrying Sonic Blasters, Blastmasters, a Rhino and an Icon of Excess.

 

On the one hand, they are durable. Feel No Pain is extremely useful and has been the difference in situations where I would have otherwise needed to take a morale test. The Rhino makes excellent mobile cover. The high initiative means they don't lose too many combats versus MEQ. I could go on.

 

On the other hand, they really do lay out a lot of shots and are absolutely devastating to footslogging armies. After playing about 10 games using 4 squads of them, I've really gotten used to laying down around 30 shots per turn, to the point where regular CSMs feel a little underpowered by comparison. It's an awesome feeling to be rolling a ton of dice for each unit each turn.

 

They are a little tricky to play, this is a not a point and shoot unit. I find myself in a lot of situations where I am moving them flat out up the board in the first turn, disembarking and creating walls of Rhinos the second turn, and then trying to move in and out of positions to shoot up opponents. There's nothing more satisfying in 40k than moving a bunch of Rhinos out of position to expose an opponent to 50+ shots from behind.

 

I recently got introduced to the tactic of tarpit infiltration, where Noise Marines are infiltrated at the start of a game to shoot up opponents and camp out until the rest of the army gets there. The idea is that they infiltrate, getting the drop on one unit and using the Rhino for cover, then moving it at the start of the next turn to catch enemy troops who are positioning themselves for the assault. There's a bit of a trick to it, but you can tie up an opponent for 3+ rounds when it's done correctly.

 

I really like using Noise Marines with Bikers who are also carrying the IoE. Together, you end up with 2 units that move in fast, are hard to kill, and both offer serious threats to anything that is not a vehicle or TEQ. It has a bit of a psychological effect in the game, after a couple rounds of shrugging off shots, I find opponents spending a lot of time thinking 'what's next?' I get the sense this leads to people making a lot of mistakes.

[Kol Saresk]

As primarily an ork player, to me noise marines are absolutely brutal. Even a small unit has the potential to gut a unit of boyz over a couple of turns with those sonic weapons. To my mind they are the only cult unit that does something different from the rest of the army, there's nothing else that does quite so much damage to ork boyz or similar units at range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNCrCJ5FZu0

 

Sorry, Orks and Noise Marines, just couldn't resist.

 

On topic, it does seem like they are getting used quite a bit but are like power lances, there is a where and when. Horde armies like Orks, NM excel apparently. Gunlines, NM. KSons probably fit in a mix of shooty and sorcerer support. Berzerkers, Lord's CC retinue.

[the jeske]

Oddly enough, I'm seeing the opposite concern. I can't find a good enough reason to take basic CSMs when the cult options are superior and most of the lord builds are superior with marks, so they're worth the additional points.

 

In my eyes, plague marines are still the Chaos standard for troops.

but the points are there . out of all cults 1ksons and NM are too situational and cost too much to be effective . zerkers are ok , but they are an assault unit , csm with mark of khorn are just as good and can also shot . pms are ok campers , but you have to take a lord to make them troops . this means no ax lord , no huron or no sorc , taking pms forces a lot of limitations , too many imo [like have to take mace cant use lord against a lot of other HQ etc] . the change to FnP didnt make them better. unlike some other units with FnP PMs are not t4 ,they didnt need a help against power weapons [they were already being wounded on +5] what they needed is second save witha 50% chance to work against a lot of stuff. there is also some mechanics stuff that doesnt help pms in 6th ed . more plasma means more stuff shots hit them [and a +5 sv sucks] , msu isnt as good as it was before and pms cost too much in squads bigger then 7 man .

 

 

depanding on the build at 1500 you will have 2-3 csm units and 0-2 cultists units . this is optimal with enough units to do shoting grab objectives , there is the problem of randomness in our lists other meq swarms dont have[the good ones at least] , but that is life and we cant do much about it .

[Prot]

So far it looks like -most- think of the cult units as elites, not troops. Which is kind of disappointing.

 

Both HQ and Cult need to gel with the army. There's no point buying a HQ just to make the cult troops, you actually need a use for the HQ.

 

Plagues are great line holders, better holding the midfield, but they need to score. If your list cannot fit in another reason for a nurgle lord, then use other scoring units.

 

Cult troops are also better at working in smaller units than regular CSM due to fearless, try cutting down their sizes.

 

I agree the HQ and Troops should gel. But at least we have a few options.... I don't want to take Ahriman? Fine, then how about a cheap Tzeench Sorc? Don't want Tyhpus? How about a vanilla Nurgy Lord? It's not too terribly difficult given the wargear to hopefully get what you want out of your corresponding HQ.

 

 

Oddly enough, I'm seeing the opposite concern. I can't find a good enough reason to take basic CSMs when the cult options are superior and most of the lord builds are superior with marks, so they're worth the additional points.

 

In my eyes, plague marines are still the Chaos standard for troops.

 

I haven't really dabbled in plague marines since I played full out Death Guard. I tried making a few 1500 point lists, and they seemed so darn small compared to my Huron list... I know we had this conversation about troops before, but I'd challenge you to taking 3 stripped down squads and Huron. No marks no icons, just good assault weapons and a 'decent' champion (for those mandatory challenges). I wonder if you would feel the same?

 

 

but the points are there . out of all cults 1ksons and NM are too situational and cost too much to be effective . zerkers are ok , but they are an assault unit , csm with mark of khorn are just as good and can also shot . pms are ok campers , but you have to take a lord to make them troops . this means no ax lord , no huron or no sorc , taking pms forces a lot of limitations , too many imo [like have to take mace cant use lord against a lot of other HQ etc] . /snip

 

 

depanding on the build at 1500 you will have 2-3 csm units and 0-2 cultists units . this is optimal with enough units to do shoting grab objectives , there is the problem of randomness in our lists other meq swarms dont have[the good ones at least] , but that is life and we cant do much about it .

 

I agree with the theory on PM's, and even 1K sons, but it seems some people are getting good mileage out of Noise Marines in this thread. I know you played them for a while... have you tested them with this new codex? How are you fielding them?

[the jeske]

NM vs MoS csm is a question of syren vs 2 plasma . if opponent doesnt know that syrens exist [possible] or cant deal with rhinos or lets a flamer template get in the range then a syren can be effective . but all of this is still outclassed by having 30" range and ap 2 . a unit of csm with 2 plasma will kill more models , unless your opponent bunches up and moves up closer then he should. what imo happens only if a transports gets destroyed near our units . ah and it has to be non teq models .

 

there is also the problem of cost . 10NM with just a syren and ccw cost 205pts. same 10 man sized mos csm with 2 plasma unit costs 190 pts. now 15 pts doesnt seem like much . but considering people do run 2-3 units of troops we are looking at a difference of 30-45 pts here. one can say that those 15 pts are a tax chaos players pay for nm fearless . Imo not worth it . the moment we start thinking in terms of cost and Ld based test immunity , it [i hate to say this so many times] we find out , that SW do the same thing not only cheaper but also better.

[Sception]

Berzerkers are too expensive and slow as a melee unit to hoof it to close combat, and lack assault-friendly transport options. Maybe if they had access to drop pods, or some sort of demonic, possessed rhino (if they really wanted to give us new daemon engines, they could have tried giving us the transports our elite melee units needed instead of two new walkers to be redundant with the two walkers we already had). Anyway, I like khorne-marked axe lords, but even if I'm fielding one, I steer clear of berzerkers.

 

Thousand sons are too specialized for one job, and even then aren't exactly inspired at that job, and tzeentch has the worst of the native disciplines for sorcerers, so that's a double lose right there. MoT is ok on terminator lords for the invulnerable boost, but they don't make thousand sons troops anyway, and even if they did you still wouldn't want them.

 

Plague Marines are reasonable midfield line holders / infantry objective grabbers. Pricey, but tough, and well armed. And nurgle lords can be ok, particularly in terminator armor or on a bike with black mace or fisticlaws. So nurgle cult seems the most viable - but even then only for one to two units, I wouldn't want to completely depend on such expensive models for my troops allowance. But what's that, Typhus is pretty good, and gives you both troop plague marines and a decent quality in-theme chaff unit? Yeah. Once again, I think nurgle is the most viable cult themed option.

 

Noise Marines are interesting, in that they're basically two different units. One is slaaneshi marked basic CSMs that trade their plasma guns for AP3 flamers and fearlessness. I'm not sure that's a good trade, but it doesn't seem to be a terrible one, either, so long as you have other options for dealing with terminators. The other unit is a static, anti light infantry shooty squad that ignores cover. One that is interesting, but overpriced, in no small part because they're paying for a point of initiative they don't intend to use and the mobility options of salvo weapons that don't work due to cutting the weapon ranges down to assault distance while simultaneously preventing assaults. Slaaneshi lords seem like they should be a good choice due to the initiative boost, but the lack of an option for an AP2 melee weapon at initiative means it isn't as good as you'd think it would be, so....

 

 

Yeah. You can certainly try to make a Marked HQ + cult units in troop slots thing work, and build the rest of your army around that, but unless your patron is Nurgle it really seems to me that you're starting yourself off with a serious handicap by taking an inferior HQ or Troops unit or both. And if you are going with Nurgle, then you should think long and hard before passing on Typhus. He may be pricey, but he's got an AP2 daemon weapon (Init 1, but tough enough to eat some attacks before swinging), lord stats, psycher abilities, and most importantly lets you supplement your tough but pricey plague marines with some cheap and fluffy zombies.

[tvih]

Berzerkers are too expensive and slow as a melee unit to hoof it to close combat, and lack assault-friendly transport options. Maybe if they had access to drop pods, or some sort of demonic, possessed rhino (if they really wanted to give us new daemon engines, they could have tried giving us the transports our elite melee units needed instead of two new walkers to be redundant with the two walkers we already had). Anyway, I like khorne-marked axe lords, but even if I'm fielding one, I steer clear of berzerkers.

 

Yeah, berzerkers really seem problematic. I want to play Khorne, and my primary HQ Lord is Khorne, but the berzerkers just are lacking because of lack of assault vehicles other than the always ever so expensive Land Raider - same damn problem with every marine army. At least if you take CSM with CCW, though you don't get WS5 you do get a Boltgun to shoot with for that turn when disembarking from a Rhino when you can't charge anyway.

 

It just seems like that for CC, it's either CSM in Rhino or even better, just take bikes - because as we know, Bikes > Raptors for mobile CC. As it is since my Lord will probably be on a Juggernaut - because he'll need the speed and Juggernaut over a bike just so I can use that awesome FaBa model - my fast attack spots are a bit tight, since one will be used up by Chaos Spawns to go with my Juggernaut (not optimal in terms of FOC usage, but joining a bike squad appears too problematic), one will be used by the bikes and the last I suppose will be taken by a Heldrake once I buy one. But in any case it seems Berzerkers don't get much of a chance, which is sad.

 

As for the other cult units, can't really say too much about them due to lack of experience with them, but since they're basically shooty I suppose that makes them more viable than Berzerkers by default.

[Sception]

Yeah, berzerkers really seem problematic. I want to play Khorne, and my primary HQ Lord is Khorne, but the berzerkers just are lacking because of lack of assault vehicles other than the always ever so expensive Land Raider - same damn problem with every marine army. At least if you take CSM with CCW, though you don't get WS5 you do get a Boltgun to shoot with for that turn when disembarking from a Rhino when you can't charge anyway.

 

Other marine factions at least have crusaders and drop pods.

[tvih]

Other marine factions at least have crusaders and drop pods.

Yes but Crusaders are overpriced just like regular Land Raiders, and while the Crusader can carry more troops its weapons are less than stellar. I've used mine once, and even then it was an utter waste of points. Then again, against Haywire spam what vehicle isn't? But in general it just feels too expensive. Like with my Templars that 265 points can buy another 5-man terminator Squad with 2x Cyclones, almost 4 LS Typhoons, or a number of other things.

 

And Drop Pods? Not really helpful in that you can't charge out of them on the same turn either. I haven't bought any myself yet for my Templars, I should but paying so much for transports (that is, the models) that I'd only use occasionally and don't even work for CC units... meh.

[Jonah]

I think the decisive factor here is the point limitation of 1500 rather than whether Cult troops are effective or not.

 

In my experience at 1500 points you're specialising too much with Cult Troops. You're committing to a singular army style with few points left to diversify. At 1500 you have to take 'bang for buck' units that are also flexible; like CSM with CCW and Melta Bikers.

[Prot]

I think the decisive factor here is the point limitation of 1500 rather than whether Cult troops are effective or not.

 

In my experience at 1500 points you're specialising too much with Cult Troops. You're committing to a singular army style with few points left to diversify. At 1500 you have to take 'bang for buck' units that are also flexible; like CSM with CCW and Melta Bikers.

 

So hypothetically in your opinion, 1750 makes all the difference?

 

I really think a lot of tournaments (at least in Canada and Europe) still feature a lot of 1500 tournaments. The idea that you can't use cult troops in that environment is absolutely asinine.

 

*IF* this is true, then it's a failure on the codex imo. Sorry to sound harsh but it's just another aspect of the codex that I'm trying to have fun with... while being competitive. It's not working thus far.... so I'm asking for help, and just getting echoed my own sentiments.

[Jonah]

Well let me clarify a bit.

 

I'm assuming that if you take Cult Troops you want more than one squad of these, let's say the bare-bones minimum 2. You're looking at roughly 400-600 points for two troop choices (20 models) that are very specialised.

 

At 1500 that leaves you with about 1000 points left for HQ & whatever else you want. So let's say 800 after a decent HQ choice. Now you need Anti tank so let's knock another 400 off. Anti-air is another 100.

 

Now you have 300 points left to make up for what your Cult Troops are lacking in. If you went for Berzerkers you'll need some objective holders. If you went for Plague Marines you'll need something that can deal damage. And so on.

 

It's not a terrible situation, but my point is that if you start specialising troops at 1500 you make the job of building a balanced army a lot tougher on yourself. By picking flexible swiss-army troops (like CCW Marines) you'll find you have much more points to play with in other areas.

 

I've said all this but I'm sure you could build competetive lists with 2+ Cult Troop choices. I just think it'll be a lot harder to accompish!

[tvih]

In my experience at 1500 points you're specialising too much with Cult Troops. You're committing to a singular army style with few points left to diversify. At 1500 you have to take 'bang for buck' units that are also flexible; like CSM with CCW and Melta Bikers.

I don't see that "specializing" being true except perhaps with the Berzerkers. The rest - Noise, Plague, Thousand Sons - integrate pretty well into any shooty lineup, at 1500 points or otherwise. And even with the Berzerkers it's once again more about the problem of getting them where they need to be to do damage.

[Sception]

And Drop Pods? Not really helpful in that you can't charge out of them on the same turn either. I haven't bought any myself yet for my Templars, I should but paying so much for transports (that is, the models) that I'd only use occasionally and don't even work for CC units... meh.

 

Can't charge out of them, but you are guaranteed to get to where you want to go at least. like rhinos, better for shooty squads, but unlike rhinos at least functional for assault squads.

 

 

The ideal would have been some sort of daemonic armor 12 assault transport, available exclusively to our elite units, particularly zerkers and possessed, which suffer severely from the lack of such, but would also have been nice for chosen & the like. Would have been a far more meaningful addition to our list than the fiends, in any event.

[tvih]

Can't charge out of them, but you are guaranteed to get to where you want to go at least. like rhinos, better for shooty squads, but unlike rhinos at least functional for assault squads.

Well not really guaranteed. It can still scatter, just that it won't scatter into impassable terrain or other units. Barring early destruction, a Rhino gets you exactly where you were going. Although with a Rhino of course there's always also the possibility of flat-outing towards the enemy, who then manages to circle your entire vehicle the next turn, blow it up, and with no path out your unit inside dies too... :D Not that I've had that happen yet, but it makes Rhinos even more crappy against the likes of Dark Eldar.

[Jonah]

I don't see that "specializing" being true except perhaps with the Berzerkers. The rest - Noise, Plague, Thousand Sons - integrate pretty well into any shooty lineup, at 1500 points or otherwise. And even with the Berzerkers it's once again more about the problem of getting them where they need to be to do damage.

 

I see your point, but they're much more expensive than CSMs because they specialise in certain areas - Noise Maines flush cover seekers and hordes, Plagues are tough campers and Thousand Sons are your AP3 choice. I'm not saying they're bad, I'm saying they are very expensive for 1500 point lists. You would be dedicating at least a third if not a full half of your army to these specialties; what if you take 3 squads of Thousand Sons and then face a Greenskin Horde? Or if you roll Noise Marines vs a Guard Tank division? The rest of your list has suffered in depth because of this specialization. You don't feel it very much at 2000 points but at 1500, like the OP said, you can end up with a very small looking army.

[tvih]

But then, no matter how you try to balance things out you'll always have situations where you aren't really optimally geared for that particular opponent. Brought lots of lascannons? Yeah, that's nice against many armies, but against that Horde... Regular CSM don't really do any more against Tank Division than something like the Plague Marines. They'll still most likely get blown away. Tradeoffs, like always, but regular CSM aren't necessarily a magical solution for everything either.

 

Still, especially being Khorne on the HQ side for me the CSM seem to be the most viable option. Although it seems I'll still have but one squad of them in most lists. Don't even have models for more than 8-13 (depending on if I make a havoc squad as well or not). It'd be interesting to try a good old fashioned Rhino + CSM spam, though spamming "weak" units has never worked for me so far in my Templar/C:SM lists.

[the jeske]

But then, no matter how you try to balance things out you'll always have situations where you aren't really optimally geared for that particular opponent.

plasma and bolters in 6th ed works against everything , save for av13-14 and that is why we are runing bikes and IG ally to counter those . this is not a question of better , but a question of how bad . 1ksons , nm do nothing to av 11 . nothing and if they start taking upgrades [psy powers , blast masters] they cost a lot more , then they should and still kind of a suck [blast master is still one hit , psychic powers have to deal with rune staffs and eldar runes] .

 

 

and while the Crusader can carry more troops its weapons are less than stellar.

PotMS MM not good ... mind blown.

[tvih]

PotMS MM not good ... mind blown.

This goes a bit offtopic, but no, it really isn't when the whole damn thing it is attached to costs 265 points and with some nifty bad luck - which I have in spades - is blown up by a single lascannon hit (my BT Venerable Dread is getting notorious for that, too). Or, considering half my matches have been against DE, those wych/hekatrix haywire spammers just laugh at it. And of course without Blessed Hull the Lances just laugh at it too. And even if you tailor the list to have BH, that's yet another 30 points spent. For 295 points I can think of more useful things to take in most cases. Like if I really want multi-meltas, perhaps 4 MM/HF Typhoons that can also shoot after moving 12"?

 

Not to mention that even when you have said MM & PotMS and manage to survive getting within 12" of an enemy vehicle without going flat out so you can actually shoot, you still have to roll a hit (not a given) and then enough pen (talk about a chronic case of mass snake eyes).