Belfast Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 My local meta has changed pretty drastically as of late to feature outflanking/deepstriking units pretty heavily. Whether it is BA's with 2 baal preds and a dante + death company squad, HQ's getting the outflank personal trait and finding a way to get him in a LR, or war walkers coming in and killing troops/vehicles behind my aegis line, if you show up in my back field, I usually lose. My typical set up at 1850pts is usually like this: 1-2x rune priest sometimes a lord or WGBL - usually TH/SS, runic armor or TDA 2x 6 man LF squads, 3 ML, 2 LC Aegis D line with quad 4x 10 man GH squads (3 with double plas, 1 with double melta and all with Banners) 3 of which have rhinos vindicator + siege shield 2x Lone Wolves - 2x fen wolfs, CF, SS, TDA What I'm finding is that my 2 long fang squads and my back field GH's are usually not enough to deal with the threats that come into my back field and I could really use some insight on how my other SW players deal with this. The most obvious answer in my list right now would be to keep the LW's back in my line to be a response unit when ever I know this is coming. The problem with this is that if they're outflanking or deep striking and they don't end up in my back field, I will have not moved my LW's for 2 rounds on average and with how slow they are, they haven't been soaking up fire or will be out of position to do any good. Forces me to essentially waste 200 pts when it doesn't work. Another option would be to keep a 2nd GH squad back there and just try to block easy landing spots or even a table edge behind my D line so that I will at least get cover or force difficult terrain tests when they can move. If I were to go this route, I think my list would benefit greatly from adding bran redmaw so I would get 2 outflanking GH squads and can easily keep the other 2 back without feeling like I'm lacking pressure against my opponent. This would also free up my lone wolves should I still be able to afford them. Having to buy imperial armour 11 and finding an acceptable model for the redmaw is the biggest issue I have with this. From here, dropping 1-2 LW's and picking up either a large fen wolf squad to be use'd like kroot or a TWC squad that I keep to respond would probably be my best bet. I don't have that many fen wolves but I do have the unassembled models for 6 TWC and a TWC Lord so I may have to definitely give that a shot. I'm still a tad sketchy about using TWC since str 10 insta kills them and ap 3 chews them up. Do you plan for this situation in your take all comers lists and if so, how do you deal with it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Couple things you might consider. Using Tempest's Wrath on one of your backfield RPs if you're going up against JP/Deepstriking squads. Replacing one of your LF packs with a speeder squadron for better maneuverability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalachiOfRuss Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 It's about deployment. If you know they're outflanking then you'll need to deploy in such a way as to anticipate it. Pick a corner and pile up in it. String out squads along a table edge to give them no room to outflank there. Spread out the remaining models to give them no place to deep strike (without misshaping). Use Rhinos to either block edges or to form a "wall" so that they can DS or outflank and then shoot your troops, make them shoot the Rhinos first. Your AGL could form the outermost "ring" with the Rhinos behind it, and then all your dudes behind them. If there's no room inside the "ring" to outflank or DS, then they'll have to come outside it. Then they're shooting at Rhinos with a 4+ cover save, and even if they do destroy them, oh well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Yeah, for horde and melee-intensive armies, I like to pile into a fortified corner as far away from them as possible and pick them off as they approach. Malachi's suggestion at blocking off areas for potential outflanking with large masses like vehicles is a good idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238444 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 It's about deployment. If you know they're outflanking then you'll need to deploy in such a way as to anticipate it. Pick a corner and pile up in it. String out squads along a table edge to give them no room to outflank there. Spread out the remaining models to give them no place to deep strike (without misshaping). Use Rhinos to either block edges or to form a "wall" so that they can DS or outflank and then shoot your troops, make them shoot the Rhinos first. Your AGL could form the outermost "ring" with the Rhinos behind it, and then all your dudes behind them. If there's no room inside the "ring" to outflank or DS, then they'll have to come outside it. Then they're shooting at Rhinos with a 4+ cover save, and even if they do destroy them, oh well. That is a really good point. I usually tend to fortify in one corner but blocking their access makes a ton of sense and should be pretty easy to do with just a gh squad or two. Thanks for the info! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 It is called, "castling". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Leave your old-fashioned, outdated, antiquated chess jargon out of our super-strategic, advanced, and evolved battle chess! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 On another vein of this topic, I'd be interested to hear experienced Wolves' thoughts on fighting Chaos Demon armies, particularly those heavy on *!&^~#! Flamers. I've gone with refused flank deployments (bunched up, my first game against them) and standard gunlines and got slaughtered both times. The real killer is the 12" move of Flamers, which means unless the deep strike is phenomenally unlucky they have the ability to reposition to the best of their advantage before burning my Marines to a cinder. This is the only DS army I've had a significant problem with so far and one that I haven't found the Wolf answer to yet. (Probably need to play more games then... :() Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Use your rhinos as a ring of wagons around your refused flank with no space inside for the flamers to enter. so they are forced to flame from the other side of the rhinos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Change the Quad Gun on the ADL to an Icarus and stick one of your Lone Wolves on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3238960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I recently posted a topic on LWs manning the icarus, makes it tough to kill and diversifies your threats. Sounds to me like people have adapted to your style of list and set about killing your firebase. As you said this is one of the main functions of a lone wolf. Overall though assigning a couple lone wolfs to guard duty is worth the trade off to likely foil a main portion of your opponents strategy, and they should have no problem doing that. I also like the idea of land speeders since this is a tactic I use. hf/hf speeders just for example can put some serious hurt for cheap and if you deploy them out of the way your opponent wont risk outflanking/DS to kill them because they will be left too far to threaten your firebase before you pound them. Personally I like to build a mixture of counters into my lists; either a dread or lone wolf for guard duty of my firebase, sometimes land speeders, then often a 'cleaner crew' such as TW lord or TWC. I also rely heavily on drop pods, almost always 3 which allows me to bring in what I call an 'eraser unit'. Its pretty much a rapid response unit to counter hammers or just wipe something thats causing trouble. This includes units like you mentioned, although this unit is subject to who goes first. The upside is they can kill or seriously cripple most things and I get freedom of deployment via DS and the first strike. btw that castling comment was hilarious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Every Daemons player I have faced seemed to be completely terrified by a rune priest in a transport a midfield casting Tempest Wrath. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Every Daemons player I have faced seemed to be completely terrified by a rune priest in a transport a midfield casting Tempest Wrath. Very True Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 replace LF , vindicator and one GH pack with an IG ally detachment . more targets at homes base . bubble wrap for your LF and a stronger fire base . It will also give you access to more targets your opponent will want to counter fast[if you take a manticor] or to flyers[if you take a vendetta]. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Posted November 16, 2012 Author Share Posted November 16, 2012 replace LF , vindicator and one GH pack with an IG ally detachment . more targets at homes base . bubble wrap for your LF and a stronger fire base . It will also give you access to more targets your opponent will want to counter fast[if you take a manticor] or to flyers[if you take a vendetta]. This is an option I considered but I'm not quite ready to drop that much on an army that the most I would do with it is use as an ally. I already have about 3/4's of a ravenwing army from trading DV and a bunch of old bikes I haven't assembled, a start on a necron army, and my old BT and Kson armies I haven't touched in 4 years lol. No new armies for me for a while! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Every Daemons player I have faced seemed to be completely terrified by a rune priest in a transport a midfield casting Tempest Wrath. Honestly I dont see tempests wrath doing much, the most problematic daemons have 2 wounds and an invuln save. Maybe its more of a psychological factor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Every Daemons player I have faced seemed to be completely terrified by a rune priest in a transport a midfield casting Tempest Wrath. Honestly I dont see tempests wrath doing much, the most problematic daemons have 2 wounds and an invuln save. Maybe its more of a psychological factor? my old daemon opponent was scared when she read what it did, but then laughed as she saw what it did. its never as effective as it appears to be. and if your opponent is sneaky, they'll bring Fateweaver to re-roll any fails. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265820-dealing-with-outflankers-and-deep-strikers-as-sw/#findComment-3239958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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