Warp Talons: Surprising utility

[compgeek1602]

Okay, so everyone I've ever talked to has pretty much showered Warp Talons with ill-concealed hatred or contempt, but I, being the curious sort that I am, just had to see how bad they were, so I bought some and made a unit. Now, I obviously play Death Guard, and fluffy, Legion Death Guard at that, but I looked up the various sources, and they all agreed that there's no doubt Mortarion fielded small numbers of Assault Marines before the Heresy. As a result, I figured it wouldn't be TOO heinous a crime to field one unit of them. So, without further ado, here is what I've been trying out:

 

Lord w/ MoN, JP, Black Mace, SoC, GoM, VotLW 180

Sorcerer w/ Lvl2, MoN, JP, SoC, GoM, VotLW, Spell Familiar 155

 

8 Warp Talons w/ MoN, VotLW, 2GoM(Champ) 342

 

Now, the first time I used WT's, I took one 7-man unit without SC support of any kind against eldar. By themselves they locked down an entire 10-man unit of Wraith Guard, with warlock, killing one or two a turn until Eldrad showed up. Even then, my champ survived two rounds in a challenge with Eldrad (miraculous, I know, but that 5+ invul is deceptively good), allowing my remaining WT's to kill yet another two Wraithguard, finishing the squad right before Eldrad killed my champ. They are expensive, but they definitely made their points back in that game, tying down a third of his entire army for 5 turns before finally succumbing, but not before killing that entire squad of Wraith Guard. That was actually what made me want to try a truly dedicated squad of these under-rated guys. I am also aware that this is an expensive squad, and I won't be fielding it in games of less than 2000 points, as it quickly becomes a points sinkhole. However, a small 7-man unit (282 pts) did spectacularly well in a 1500 pt game, so I think they have more utility than most people are willing to concede.

 

The reason I'm starting this topic is two-fold: One, I want to kind of get people thinking outside the box, getting those brain-juices flowing so we can really push the limits of what this new codex has to offer. Two, I want to see if others have had any experiences with units that have been dismissed by the majority of Chaos players. I'm thinking these guys are the ones most people are relegating to the codex trashbin right now (Any others I haven't thought of I would love to hear about):

 

1) Warp Talons

2) Mutilators

3) Defilers

4) Possessed

 

Now, I may be wrong about a few of these, but these are the ones I have heard the most negative comments about. I'm mostly concerned with how these units perform with the MoN, as not only is this the Legio Morbidus, but the other Legions can have their own tactical forums! Anyway, so, if anyone has any experiences, in multiple battles please, I'd love to hear about how they performed, what they killed, what they took on, and if they were game-changers, meh, or completely worthless. Let's get this brain-storm started!

 

Edit: I changed the price of the WT's, they're slightly cheaper than I had thought previously! Curse my poor math skills

[Dez]

Did you deep strike them? I'm curious, as it doesn't seem like a game changer or particularly useful as far as army synergy is concerned.

 

How did Fear work for you? The 3/5 save seems pretty good, and paired lightning claws pour out the wounds I'm sure.

[compgeek1602]

I chose to bring them on the edge of the board and just bumrush the guy I was playing. It worked exceptionally well, actually, because I had enough T4 and 5 threats that they only took a little bit of shooting. Having a squad of chosen and plagues tends to do that. I think though that deep striking them could be very viable, under the right circumstances. I just really wanted to see what they could do in that particular game. I'm not going to be able to play for a while, but this unit is going to be the next unit I use. I'm really itching to see what biomancy and nurgle de-buffs do to help out an already nasty squad. Yeah, I forgot to add that the unit eldrad was in also charge them, so at one point they were outnumbered something like 8 to one, but they still managed to take all the wraith guard and six dire avengers with them before they died.

[Eorek]

Mutilators

I've run mutilators in 1 man squads (1 or two) with mark of nurgle... They are great for deep striking at your enemies rear line and kill off long fangs, psyfelmen, devs, lootas or whatever is needed. Also with mark of nurgle they won't get instant killed by meltas/las cannons so they can absorb quite some punishment before they go down(making the rest of your army suffer less)

 

As a 3 man dedicated assault unit however they are sorta bad and expensive... in 1 man squads they are cheap, invoke terror in the other player seeing em marching real close to his lootas/longfangs/devs/psyfelmen or what ever. Basically 1 mutilator is way more cost effective in doing the same job as 3 would, which is being a intimidating threat that deploys behind the enemy front lines and chews up the more vurnerable backline units, if he dies from a s10 or a few las cannons and melta he's still done his job taking hits for the team.

 

Run almost 15 games with atleast 1 mutilator at both 1000 and 1999, never been disappointed with them.

 

 

"why not use terminators instead they are better at what they do" is the most common argument, and I have to disagree. A mutilator costs less than 3 terminators, is more sturdy against s 3-6 weapons, He can fight just about anything short of AP1-2 that strikes on initiative with his weapon morphs.

to do this with terminators they'd need atleast 1 chainfist which. also they are more vurnable to template / blast weapons since they receive more than just one hits(plasma cannon anyone?)

"They can shoot unlike a mutilator" none really cares about 3 twinlinked bolters... and combi weapons will increase their pointcost even more.

 

That's my take on mutilators.

They are viable as tzeentch, khorne and unmarked aswell... but personally I prefer nurgle for the s8-9 not instant killing em.

 

Defilers

Battlecannon:check

hard to kill: check

Is big and mean: check

 

sorta expensive, but my other daemon engines are running fine, this is basically an anti-everything machine with a ap3 blast that wounds MEQ on 2+... It should chop most elite infantry apart from hammernators/ initative 4 strength 10 attackers(or too many grenades like wyches tend to carry)

 

I would most likely run mine with 2 power scourge unless I had a sorcerer giving it invisibility when it gets into melée, fighting stuff with WS 1 is ...amazing

 

Dream scenario would be a fireshield+ invisibility sorcerer being in a support role to a defiler... shame psychic powers are so random...

 

But I'm afraid that when it comes to melée walkers I'll have to prefer the faster Maulerfiend, for busting tanks I'll go with a forgefiend instead, for handeling hordes/MEQ Baleflamers on helldrakes is the way to go,

 

But if you want a walker that can take on the world: A defiler is the walker for you. .

 

The others...

 

Personally I can see the perks with Warp talons and possessed ... Not enough perks for me to take em though... they are sorta like the Twilight series and Justin Bieber. Not as bad as haters say, not as good as fans say...though still leaning towards the bad side.

[compgeek1602]

Okay, so you run Mutilators in singles? I can see that. It's like the chaos version of Lone Wolves. I'm going to have to try that.

 

As far as defilers, have you actually run one yet? I have not, since I don't have the model, but most people can't get past the cost. I personally have run a maulerfiend, and have found it to be extremely durable and awesome to have along, but I haven't gotten a chance to run a defiler yet, which is actually my goal for my next game. Has anyone run the new defiler? Has anyone run possessed?

 

For myself, i've found that Warp Talons are amazing. In the three games I've run them in now, they have been utterly devastating and extremely effective at drawing attention. Opponents cannot just let those run around the board, they have to kill them, which means they have the utility of keeping your troops safe from shooting for quite a while. the 5++ is extremely helpful in this, and is much better than most people are willing to admit for some reason.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

My defiler is at present the only one of my vehicles to have not died in 6th - I've used him 4 times - twice since the new Codex, and he has always been able to deal damage. I hang mine back with a more tempting target in front (like a more vulnerable tank or a squad of tooled-up chosen) until the enemy has braved the gauntlet of battle cannon shells, havoc missiles and reaper shots, before moving the bait and charging (the bait then often flank charges too).

He does well against Tyranids in particular, but the game I played against Eldar was hard - dedicated units such as Shadow Spectres make life hard for him. He took 2 HP damage and a weapon destroyed before he was able to 'hide' in combat with a weakling Banshee squad.

[Eorek]

Okay, so you run Mutilators in singles? I can see that. It's like the chaos version of Lone Wolves. I'm going to have to try that.

 

Yea, Try em out, just play smart with em and they work wonders.

[compgeek1602]

Thanks for the reply Enaek, and I'm honestly not surprised your Defiler has done so well for you. It's been kind of depressing hearing all the debbie-downers crying about how expensive they are now, and forgetting that they got hugely boosted with the daemon SR and the daemonforge SR. I'm assuming you arm yours with a havoc launcher, reaper AC, and PF? I've never actually thought about trying a shooty version of a Defiler, I guess because their CC stats are so amazing. I'm glad to hear someone has been having positive results with one of the shunned units of the new codex. Yeah, Shadow Spectres are utterly amazing. I'm surprised to see that your defiler made it through that. Those things dish out a ton of damage. Shows just how under-rated defilers are!

 

In other news, my Warp Talon death star has now officially been blooded, and the results are satisfactory, to say the least. I rolled the Hatred characteristic for my Warlord, and he got +1A for his GoM. My sorcerer received +1T, a hugely awesome roll, and my WT champ got poisoned and witch-eater. I deep struck them on turn 2 right next to two squads of eldar guardians, causing one squad to be blinded. I then used my plague wind power on the other squad, killing 9 guardians. This spectacular arrival caused him to immediately turn his attention away from my plague marines and chosen hidden behind my cultist squads, and focus the firepower of most of his army on my newly arrived unit. I took quite a beating from this, but T5 and a 5++ saved me from losing everyone. I lost 3 WT's from that, and then charged his blinded squad, which he had tried to run away from me. My WT's went through them like a bulldozer through a rice paper house, killing all but one model out of 20. The black mace helped with this, as he caused two wounds on the farseer, so I killed five guardians from the T tests they had to take. Re-rolling to hit on 4's and to wound on 3's is utterly disgusting, though, as that was what killed the other 15 models. I rolled on the chart at this point, and my lord gained vorpal claws, which is the most disgusting combo I can possibly think of, and incredibly lucky to be perfectly honest, as the last model to die was the farseer he had been in a challenge with, while my WT champ gained +1W, which was pretty sweet. I'm seriously in love with the Boon chart. Anyway, I then charged his squad of Wraithguard with my WT's, and this time the combat was completely in my favor, as I killed 5 in the first round. I managed this because I double-stacked the biomancy power of -1 to T and S with gift of contagion, which I also rolled -1T on, making them T4 instead of T6. He went first thanks to his warlock, but he denied the challenge, which allowed me to pour all the fury of the black mace on his guys, which now not only wounded on a 2+, but also ignored armor saves, meaning every single wound was a dead WG. I rolled a 5 for my daemon weapon roll, and re-rolled to hit, so he got 8 wounds all by himself, which pretty much wiped the squad. My WT's just did mop-up on the remaining 2, killing them easily. At this point, I now had total board control, and had crushed him between the anvil of my plagues and chosen, and the hammer of my WT's, so he conceded at the end of turn 3, as all he had left was one squad of guardians that my plagues were currently mowing through, and some harlequins, which my chosen had hopelessly tied down.

 

In conclusion, my WT's are now an auto-include above 2000 points, as they are just too amazing for words. I can't praise them enough, honestly. They are incredibly resilient, dish out a ridiculous number of AP3 wounds, and take attention off other, softer units. They are very, very good, regardless of what others may say.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

I'd just like to point out that the havoc launcher isn't useful on a Defiler unless you're going to forego firing the battle cannon. The latter makes every other weapon on the Defiler fire snap shots, and since the havoc launcher is a blast weapon that can't fire as snap shots, the utility is somewhat limited.

 

Still, it's a fun upgrade, if only so you have one more shooty stick to lose to enemy fire, or for those times when a battle cannon scatter can ruin your day.

[compgeek1602]

Hmmm..... an excellent point, Interrogator-Chaplain. I think, for myself at least, I'll be sticking with the idea of a CC-oriented defiler that can still blast apart even SM's with its battle cannon. So, has anyone attempted to run possessed in the new codex? Those seem to be the only ones that no one has chipped in on yet. I haven't gotten a chance to utilize them yet, but the idea of S5 T5 shock troops with a 3+/5++ is mighty tempting.....

[Kol Saresk]

I saw somewhere on the Chaos Ascendant Subforum I think where someone said they had great success with possessed and when asked why, it was because they didn't assault units in cover so the "No Grenades" wasn't really a problem for them, which seems to be the number one argument against them.

[GlauG]

Personally I'm considering going for a Defiler in my new CSM list, I'm too fond of the Battlecannon and Reaper to not give it a try at the very least, and then you add to that the ability to take a Dirge Caster unlike the *Fiends so it can run into melee with Plasmaspam or melta-toting squads in relative safety. I'll have slightly more practical experience to share tomorrow though!

 

Warp Talons tempt me because of the pretty models, as much as anything else, but I'm not sure I can spare the points for them, as much as anything else. They are on my to-try list in larger games though.

[Tzimisce169]

I used a unit of possessed in a game the other day and they were rubbish. They are stupidly expensive considering the following-

 

1: You don't get to deepstrike

2: They can't run AND assault (I know, no unit in the game can do this)

3: Rhinos paired with assault units is a terrible idea as you have to get out in the previous turn leaving them vulnerable to enemy fire.

4: The fact that they have not guns means that they seem slower than normal troops. Their threat range is limited to 13" (6+2D6 average) compared to a standard chaos marines 30" (6 move + 24 bolter).

5: Everything can just run away from them. If you get close enough to launch a successful assault, your opponent have screwed up.

6: The only effective delivery method is a land raider (which is a whole new level of rubbish) and expensive to boot.

 

My poo-ssessed are being turned into something else.

[compgeek1602]

How many games did you play with them? Did you try running them with Huron so you could infiltrate them? Did you try hiding them behind the rhino (with a dirgecaster so they wouldn't get shot to dog-poo) on the turn they got out? Did you pair them with a shooty unit to increase their safety bubble? Did you remember to use the extra dice courtesy of Fleet? I'm just curious, as I want to see exactly what happened, so we can see if they really are terrible. Thanks.

[Dosjetka]

Very interesting thread, to say the least. Thanks to all for chipping in and adding your grains of wisdom :)

 

Ludovic

[compgeek1602]

@GlauG- I had honestly forgotten that a Defiler can take a dirgecaster. Wow, that is huge! That 6" bubble of overwatch denial on a unit so completely comfortable in CC makes for an epic combo. I can't believe I missed that, but hey, that's why I started this topic. To see if maybe we could find utility for these under-rated guys, amongst others.

 

@Kol_Saresk- I think what you just said here brings up a good point: A unit is only as good as the tactician who's employing it. Taking a unit without assault grenades into a forest would be downright foolish, although possessed still do an obscene amount of damage if they survive that first strike, courtesy of their S5 attacks. If you had a vehicle with dirgecaster nearby to deny overwatch, that would make whatever you were assaulting an extremely soft target, regardless of cover, especially if said target was something like a devastator squad or tactical squad.

[Plaguecaster]

Defilers are the best I always use one in my army (trying to run 2-3 if I have the points) it survives so much damage its not funny I usually always pass my 5+ inv save or pass it will not die to heal him. I run him with dirge caster and power scourge against necrons he just wouldn't die as no matter how many times he glanced me with his gauss weapons I just passed my inv save so many times as well as it will not die, he bogged down half the necron army with a large squad of warriors, lychguard, lord with warscythe and a c'tan kept reducing their WS so the Necrons kept failing to hit me. Defiler kept crushing the lord and the others unfortunately they kept getting back up and my defiler failed his initiative test due to that pesky c'tan time ability and was removed it was a fluke I passed it 2 times in a row.

 

I really don't see why people don't like warp talons or possessed they look awesome I will have to add some to my army

[Brother Nihm]

I saw somewhere on the Chaos Ascendant Subforum I think where someone said they had great success with possessed and when asked why, it was because they didn't assault units in cover so the "No Grenades" wasn't really a problem for them, which seems to be the number one argument against them.

 

@Kol_Saresk- I think what you just said here brings up a good point: A unit is only as good as the tactician who's employing it. Taking a unit without assault grenades into a forest would be downright foolish, although possessed still do an obscene amount of damage if they survive that first strike, courtesy of their S5 attacks. If you had a vehicle with dirgecaster nearby to deny overwatch, that would make whatever you were assaulting an extremely soft target, regardless of cover, especially if said target was something like a devastator squad or tactical squad.

The Possessed's problems are many but the lack of grenades is the main issue, and is therefore problem being discussed the most. Here is some additional food for thought though.

 

-They have 0 ranged weapons

-High strength, but AP -

-Random performance in melee, based on a per-turn dice roll

-Random charge length (general 6th ed. issue)

-If you compare them to the other Elite options they come up short in terms of damage output

-Field them naked and they are bordering on being useless, give them upgrades and a transport = their cost becomes equivalent to Terminators, which again, are in the same slot and perform ten times better than Possessed - against everything.

 

If I was given a choice (for me there isn't one really) I know which unit I'd rather field.

 

 

Put in other words,

Possessed are a fluff choice, not a 'good' choice.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Eorek]

see it from the bright side... you get alot of mutation bitz to loot from your possessed:D

[Brother Nihm]

Aye, it is an awesome kit, no doubt about that. :cuss

[The Unspeakable]

Well, I can't say much for possessed, but I got around my Warp Talons lack of frag grenades by pairing them up with a Jump Pack Lord. It twas a glorious sight to behold, they were real beasts. I managed to destroy an entire squad of wraithguard in 1 turn while my Lord distracted Eldred Ulthran (How the heck do you spell it).

[Eorek]

Isn't grenades individual now days? (havn't bothered checking since all my units have em)

[compgeek1602]

A lack of assault grenades isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. I've been using Warp Talons for a while now, and even when I DO assault into something that makes them go last, I don't care, because they're T5 with a 3+/5++. I haven't met a unit yet, that usually hides in cover, that can overcome that before I get to swing.

 

Also, everyone keeps forgetting that Possessed are FLEET, which means they get to re-roll a dice when charging. Trust me, that is not a small thing. That is a huge thing, to say the least. That means they go from a statistical average of a 7 inch charge to a 9 inch charge. When coupled with movement, that's an average of a 15" threat range. As we are discussing this in a Nurgle board, I'm going to assume they have the T5 upgrade. Even if they hit last, they will have AP3 weapons most of the time, since that's the 3-4 roll on their table. Otherwise, they re-roll to wound, which is amazing, or have 4 attacks on the charge, which is even better. Out of cover, they are utterly disgusting in CC. In cover, they still do pretty good. On average, against a Tactical termie squad hiding in cover (since you guys want to say they suck, we'll throw them against a pretty nasty threat), they will lose precisely...... half of a model from overwatch. Okay, well, Let's say those termies got REALLY lucky and killed two Possessed, getting passed the horrific chances of hitting on 6's, AND the 3+/5++. Hmmm, okay, what happens next? Alright, so, the termie sergeant accepts the challenge of the Possessed champion, let's say, and hits him once out of two attacks, then wounds him...... .05 times. I'm gonna go with the Possessed Champion survives that one. Okay, now, everyone strikes at once, since the Possessed have no grenades, and the Termies all have powerfists. Now, let's say that the Possessed rolled to have AP3 attacks, which are useless in this situation. I'm doing this, just so we can see what the absolutely worst rolls will do for our beleaguered Possessed. So, they have VotLW, cause I'd never run them any other way, seriously, so they re-roll to hit and wound on 3's. That's..... 2 dead termies, roughly. So, the termies go at the same time, and they hit on 4's, wound on 2's, killing roughly 3 Possessed, after saves. The champion hits the sergeant two or three times, but only wounds roughly twice, and the sergeant will most likely save both. So, they are now locked into combat, and there are 5 possessed total facing off against 3 termies. Now, however, you roll again, and let's say they again roll for AP3 attacks, negating the advantage. Seriously, that's some pretty bad luck, but I want to see what happens when they totally screw the pooch, as it were. So, they hit first, since they now do not go at I1, and have lost their hatred, so they hit on 4's and wound on 3's. With 2 attacks each, that's roughly one or zero termies killed. Let's throw them a bone and say they kill one more. Okay, the sgt goes at the same time, of course, and he now hits on 4's, wounds on 5's. His chances are basically zero. Seriously, that's not gonna happen. Alright, so the champ goes at the same time as well, and he gets the same results, hitting once, wounding once, but the termie saves against it. The last PF termie goes, and hits once, wounds once, but the possessed saves with his 5++. Alright, now onto the next round, and the possessed finally get a decent roll, getting an additional attack and an additional initiative. So, 4 possessed go first, hitting with 6, wounding with 4, and killing the last termie, leaving only the champ and the sergeant. The champ goes first, hits with 2, wound with 2, and we'll say he finally has some luck and kills the termie sergeant. It took 3 rounds of combat, but a squad of possessed have a very good chance of killing a tactical termie squad, in cover, with terrible, terrible boon rolls. Not to mention some spectacular luck on the part of the tactical termies with those two kills from overwatch, which is pretty much impossible. One kill I could see. Maybe. Two? No. Not with nothing but storm bolters and a CML, since no competent SM player puts anything else on tactical termies. Even with a heavy flamer, the odds are still long of getting a single kill, let alone 2. I really think Possessed are not as bad as people make them out to be. My next few games, I'm going to put these guys through the ringer, because I'm really tired of hearing people rip on them. I want to see how bad they are, not from statistics, but from actual games, MULTIPLE actual games, against a multitude of armies. Terminators CANNOT go as fast as Possessed, do not get a sick boon table, are not S5, and cannot charge as far as confidently. Fleet is a huge advantage that termies simply do not, and cannot, possess. They are a totally different unit from termies, and fulfill a completely different battlefield role. Trying to compare the two is like trying to compare apples to oranges.

 

Possessed: fast, high strength

 

Termies: slow, flexible, resilient

 

Possessed come nowhere near the cost of termies. Ten termies with MoN, VotLW, two HF's and PS's come to a grand total of 432 pts, or 412 points without the HF's, just to show what stripped down termies cost. Possessed with MoN, a Rhino, and VotLW, with 2 boons of mutation on the champ, by the way, just to make them more expensive, come to a total of 375. So, that whole, they cost as much as termies argument, is officially null and void. They are nowhere near the cost of termies.

 

Termies do not do ten times better than possessed. they can shoot, and honestly not that spectacularly, which the possessed cannot, but termies are really more about their flexibility. Also, termies do not have grenades, so they go last, too. Just thought I should throw that in there. Kinda puts the kabosh on that whole, 'no assault grenades means they're useless' thing. And they can't charge as far. And they don't get as many attacks. And they're attacks are weaker. Unless they pay more. Possessed get it for FREE with their boons.

[Brother Nihm]

Possessed come nowhere near the cost of termies. Ten termies with MoN, VotLW, two HF's and PS's come to a grand total of 432 pts, or 412 points without the HF's, just to show what stripped down termies cost. Possessed with MoN, a Rhino, and VotLW, with 2 boons of mutation on the champ, by the way, just to make them more expensive, come to a total of 375. So, that whole, they cost as much as termies argument, is officially null and void. They are nowhere near the cost of termies.

I think you missed my point. Barebones Possessed bring very little to the table, whereas barebones terminators do. (primarily the 2+ save and power weapons).

 

Also,

Who would ever field a 430+ point terminator unit below 2k5 points?

I was talking about efficient loadouts, like 6-8 terminators, no marks, combi-plasmas and an assortment of CC weapons.

 

Termies do not do ten times better than possessed. they can shoot, and honestly not that spectacularly

Be on the receiving end of 6-8 rapid firing Combi-plasmas, then tell me how it feels. :)

 

Also, termies do not have grenades, so they go last, too

2+/5++ & shooting, which technically hits before initiative.

Unless they pay more. Possessed get it for FREE with their boons.

Boons are free now?

 

Any semi-decent player can spot Possessed coming and act accordingly, they cannot prevent the Terminators from arriving (barring GKs) and unloading.

Having Terminators drop in nearby also tends to add pressure, something slogging Possessed or Rhino-borne Possessed do not.

 

If you like Possessed, great!

When they are both in the same slot however, and one constantly outperforms the other (been fielding possessed in both 5th and 6th now) I don't see a choice, there is simply no contest in my mind and I will default to Terminators for my lists.

[Eorek]

afraid I have to agree... even though I'm no fan of terminators... possessed is a cool unit to have however. Perhaps running em with a sorc rolling for invisibility would make em viable... seeing how invisibility makes just about any unit great... hell even my shooty cultists wipe ork mobs off the table in close quaters with invisibility up and a sorc zapping the nob in a challenge.

 

But Pesonally I'd run another unit of marines either khorne + icon(technically gets fleet aswell), slaanesh + icon or nurgle without icon than possessed, They get grenades, bolters and they are scoring.