Warp Talons: Surprising utility

[Brother Ambroz]

What would you do about 2+ saves when you use a Lord/Sorc + warptalons? Seems like alot of points for something to just bounce off 2+ saves.

[Eorek]

Lord : Axe of blind fury, WHAM no more 2+ save guys in that close combat... though I guess a lord like that wouldn't need a warp talon escort... raptors would do fine.

[Brother Ambroz]

It also wouldn't be Nurgle then....

[compgeek1602]

Very well, Brother Nihm. The point of my discussion was do bring up what they are GOOD at, ie, ways to field them that can actually be useful, not just point out how everything else is better than them, but okay.

 

I would, however, like to bring up a few points:

1) Combi-weapons are one shot

2) bare-bones termies are are 31 pts, do not have a boon table, do not have fleet, and are not scoring. Unless you take Abaddon.

 

I would never field bare-bones termies. Not only are we talking about Nurgle termies here, meaning they cost 37 pts each, but they die way too fast without marks. That 2+ save doesn't do much good when someone turns a couple hurricane bolters loose on you. Also, I was pointing out that a unit of 10 possessed, compared to a unit of 10 termies, is a huge difference in cost. You specifically stated they cost the same. I was pointing out they do NOT in fact, cost the same. A 5-man unit of termies would, of course, cost less than a unit of ten possessed, but then again, a unit 5 termies would die quicker than a unit of 10 possessed.

 

I would not be bothered to be on the end of 6-8 combi-plas shots, because whoever would field that unit, just cost himself a stupid amount of points. And he only gets to do it once. I've faced plasma-heavy lists, and they honestly don't scare me. I used to play plasma-guard, so I know all about the weaknesses of that build. Also, if you put combi-plas on all your termies, you now have no lightning claw pairs, meaning you are relegated to depending on power swords and power axes. Now, I do like power axes, but I only use them to get the extra attack from two CCW's and the extra strength. taking it with a combi-weapon defeats the purpose. A unit like you are proposing would cost somewhere around 360 pts with MoN, 7 combi-plas, 2PA, 4SLC, PF, RAC, VotLW. A unit of 10 possessed with rhino and dirgecaster costs exactly the same amount. One has transport, speed, and quick striking power. One is foot-slogging and shooty. Totally different purposes, and therefore NOT comparable.

 

regardless of a unit's armor save (the possessed have the same 5++, so you were wrong about that also), if they don't have grenades, they still go last, therefore termies are at the same disadvantage as possessed. Trust me, a unit of 15 Bloodclaws with a Wolf Priest will do horrific things to a unit of six termies.

 

In conclusion, I'm not saying possessed are better than termies, nor am I particularly enamored with them. I want to see what they are capable of. I understand their limitations. So does everyone else. Again, I want to see what they are capable of. You sound like someone who has been doing this hobby for a very, very long time, and I honestly would like to see your opinion on their strengths, but all you seem able to focus on is what they CAN'T do, which we already all know.

 

@Tanith- I would bury them in Plague Marines;) This game is all about knowing what to hit with what. If someone has, say, a unit of ten Honor Guard, I would happily bury that unit in T4 cultists and use my WT's to annihilate his tacticals.

[Brother Nihm]

Ah contraire,

 

I was merely pointing what I believe to be flawed statements.

Namely that possessed are the shizzle, which both playtesting and field testing has proven many times over that they're not.

 

 

To summarize the OP,

What are they Warp Talons (and Possessed for that matter) good at?

 

Shredding light infantry outside of cover

Baby sitting HQs

Scaring rookie players

NB. Talons have a bit of a one-up on the Possessed in this regard as they have packs, over fleet.

 

All of this can be done cheaper and better using other units that are available from the same slots (Elites & Fast Attack respectively)

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[compgeek1602]

I never said they were the 'shizzle.' I merely wanted to try and find new uses for units in the Chaos 'dex that have been derided in the past. I was pointing out that your unrepentant bashing session on them was uncalled for, especially in a topic that was hoping to find uses for them, not re-hash, yet again, why they are not usually included in lists. I did this by building a situation in which they actually could hold their own.

 

Now, here's what I think they actually could be good at:

1) Harassing rear-battlefield areas in a list that includes Huron, since he's unaligned and lets them infiltrate, rhino and all.

2) Drawing firepower, or, in the case of a more veteran player who automatically dismisses them, deceptively good at contesting objectives.

3) Crushing large units of light infantry, aka: Guard blobs, Eldar blobs, and boyz blobs.

4) a great tar-pit for anything with AP3 or worse weaponry, aka: wyches, assault marines, raptors, stormboyz, or cultists.

 

I honestly think their greatest utility is actually the bad image they have. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, is utterly convinced that any player who takes them must be an idiot. Or a noob. Regardless, they automatically think they are facing a mental incompetent. That attitude has several advantages, as Sun Tzu would attest, since convincing your enemy you don't know what you're doing is an awesome way to start a battle, since he then will do things he would never do with a more veteran player. Over-confidence is always a great place to have your opponent. Do I think they are some kind of over-looked uber-unit that is the secret to winning tournaments? No, of course not. However, I think they have more utility than most people give them credit for.

[King Jackal]

I like possessed, did a play test with a 10 man MoK, 2x5 MoN spawn and MoS D.p on foot. This splinter force tore through the flank of a blood angels army, including assault and death company squads before wheeling backfield, meeting with sorceror and retinue on bike, got boosted with +1 A hysterical frenzy, hit strength of the damned and went through a unit of sang. guard and nearly 2 tactical squads.

The trick is the right application and picking your targets. If you run them into heavy Armour yes they'll struggle. That's what the d.p is for and having all those T6 wounds shielding them got them into battle while getting to use fleet still.

 

As for talons, I wish there were rules for anti aircraft assault specialists, these guys would be perfect. Deep strike on the hull of your planes, hold on by burying there claws into the Armour before ripping chunks of wing and engine apart.

[Brother Nihm]

I never said they were the 'shizzle.

And I never bashed them.

 

But I digress.

[compgeek1602]

-Field them naked and they are bordering on being useless, give them upgrades and a transport = their cost becomes equivalent to Terminators, which again, are in the same slot and perform ten times better than Possessed - against everything.

 

If I was given a choice (for me there isn't one really) I know which unit I'd rather field.

 

 

Put in other words,

Possessed are a fluff choice, not a 'good' choice.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

 

This is bashing. Your words.

[Brother Nihm]

This is bashing.

No it is not.

 

You are reading way too much into things.

The point above illustrates this perfectly, because since when has giving input & stating that I (personally) prefer one unit over another = unabatedly bashing a unit? :)

 

You and I disagree,

I am fine with that, each to his own.

 

If you want to continue this discussion then feel free to take this up with me via PM, as this topic has been derailed too much already.

[spafe]

I think a naked unit of talons could have merit, as 150 isnt too many points to have sitting to one side waiting for an ideal time to join in. I dont like their gimmick with blind, and they compete with raptors, bikers, spawn (all of which I prefer), and our only flyer which im relaibly informed is indeed 'the shizzle' (but dont use flyers so hey ho).

 

Using them to harrass the enemy as a cheap unit while your proper units of the line take the fight to the enemy seems like an okay use for them. this however means I wouldnt want to run nurgle on them, ever! That implies your being shot. these units are too expensive and lack durability (even with T5) to do this. Termies with nurgle or bikers with nurgle do this far far far better. Sadly I cant see a reason bar extreme fluff of mono god to give talons nurgle. either naked or with slanesh/khorne to make them hit their intended targets better (the weak and lame of the enemy army, aka the tac marines)

[compgeek1602]

@Brother Nihm. Very well.

 

@spafe- They do, indeed, have merit. Although, I tend to think MoN makes them that much nastier. Trust me, I've run Talons in seven games now, and that T5 makes a HUGE difference. The blind thing is situationally useful, but their Deep Strike ability is much more useful. As a throw away unit, however, they do excel, as they can be dropped right on top of something, and can be expected to survive, even in the face of ferocious firepower, thanks to high Toughness, and a 3+/5++. That daemon SR is what really makes them good. They are very, very good at distracting HS units, such as Devastators, Long Fangs, Pathfinders, Lootas, so on and so forth. Trust me, that extra toughness is expensive for a reason. Once in CC, they are almost impossible to kill. Most things wound them on 5's, and some things wound them on 6's. With a Sorcerer along who can often give them FNP from Biomancy, they can really be nasty. As you well know, T5, FNP is the best thing PM's have going for them, and now you can give it to a unit of Jump Infantry all equipped with lightning claws. I've gotten that particular combo in four games, and it was truly epic. They went the whole game, just running from CC to CC, mowing through whatever got in their way.

 

Of course, a unit of TH/SS termies would make Talons cry 'uncle' in a hauling hurry, but I send my chosen or plagues after those. That many attacks, re-rolling to hit (I put VotLW on EVERYTHING, by the way), will put down a TH/SS termie unit in just a few rounds of CC.

[Eorek]

Though I think the biggest downside to Talons (at 1999 points) is that you'll have to give up a fast attack slot... Which could be filled with a Helldrake or Bikes which I found made a lot more use than my Talons in almost every game.

[compgeek1602]

Well, if you run a heldrake, a 5-man bike unit, and talons, you'd have some serious FA punch. Do you run double bikes or heldrakes or something like that?

[Eorek]

I run 3 helldrakes in my tourney list:P... the meta here is really flyer heavy, Also I personally believe bikers to be inferior to a helldrake(if we compare em FA choice vs FA choice) And if you add warp talons into it they also compete with both bikers and helldrakes...

 

In friendly games I usually run max one Helldrake.

[Chaeron]

All of this can be done cheaper and better using other units that are available from the same slots (Elites & Fast Attack respectively)

 

This would be the crux of my argument - even Raptors offer more, and I don't think that either are a particularly viable choice in this edition (as stated earlier in the thread).

 

Which, is a shame - the models are nice and I do like the concept. I do just struggle to fit them in when you weigh up their points against their capabilities - and I feel they come up short.

 

Now, if we're talking CityFight, or a specific scenario - I can see them being of slightly more use. But, comparable to either Bikes or regular Plague Marines - they don't cut the mustard I feel.

 

That said - I will probably purchase some for larger games, and for the modeling opportunities.

[Gresiloth]

Interesting thread! I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that they cost so much for what they are. 30pts per model is eye-watering, when you can get a bike for 20pts. That said I really like the idea of deep striking them with a jump pack lord, then ripping up heavy weapon squads after they've weathered the storm with their T5.

[Brother Nihm]

It is a nice kit indeed. :unsure:

[Chaeron]

Interesting thread! I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that they cost so much for what they are. 30pts per model is eye-watering, when you can get a bike for 20pts. That said I really like the idea of deep striking them with a jump pack lord, then ripping up heavy weapon squads after they've weathered the storm with their T5.

 

Ten points cheaper for an extra point of Toughness, plus all the benefits associated by riding a bike - in this instance, I don't believe there's a comparison!

 

That would be ideal way to use them - I just don't think they'd last long enough to do it!

[Kol Saresk]

Interesting thread! I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that they cost so much for what they are. 30pts per model is eye-watering, when you can get a bike for 20pts. That said I really like the idea of deep striking them with a jump pack lord, then ripping up heavy weapon squads after they've weathered the storm with their T5.

 

Ten points cheaper for an extra point of Toughness, plus all the benefits associated by riding a bike - in this instance, I don't believe there's a comparison!

 

That would be ideal way to use them - I just don't think they'd last long enough to do it!

It all depends on your dig. If someone doesn't care about the ten points or the bike and they want to run it, then there is a comparison.

[Chaeron]

Interesting thread! I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that they cost so much for what they are. 30pts per model is eye-watering, when you can get a bike for 20pts. That said I really like the idea of deep striking them with a jump pack lord, then ripping up heavy weapon squads after they've weathered the storm with their T5.

 

Ten points cheaper for an extra point of Toughness, plus all the benefits associated by riding a bike - in this instance, I don't believe there's a comparison!

 

That would be ideal way to use them - I just don't think they'd last long enough to do it!

It all depends on your dig. If someone doesn't care about the ten points or the bike and they want to run it, then there is a comparison.

 

You'd spend more points on a less effective unit?

 

In games where points matter - i.e. the majority of games, it's only pertinent to choose units that are most effective for their cost. In this case, Bikes are far more effective for a cheaper cost. Not just no comparison - no brainer!

 

Now, if you get a pack for Christmas, and want to use them - then that's fine, but the comparison you make is what is more effective for the cost - and when you've established that, you choose that in a competitive list. In this instance, the Bikers win out.

[Kol Saresk]

Umm yes, if you are playing for your version of fun, and your version is a narrative version in which victory is down to the play of the die, then yes you would. If you are playing for WAAC or to simply win, then you would go for the more competitive mindset. Hence why I said "if it's your dig." It all depends what the list builder wants out of it. That is the purpose of the hobby, for people to relax and have fun. Obviously, there are various interpretations of that. That's why it all falls down to personal preference.

[Chaeron]

Well, I play to win - I find that relaxing and enjoyable - and I'm sure most people would prefer to win than get slaughtered for poor tactical decisions from the outset.

 

They have very similar functions, one is better at it - so it's your choice, as I stated. Just highlighting the optimum option in this instance.

 

Your hobby, do what you want!

[Kol Saresk]

Depends on how you view tactics: Probability or how you use what you have. Alexander the Great would definitely agree that the numbers were against him in his first battle with the Persians. Ergo, tactics are different from numbers. That's why in chess the pawn has the dubious honor of being the strongest and the weakest piece, depending on how you choose to use it.

 

But as we both agreed, whatever gets your dig is your dig.

[compgeek1602]

They have very similar functions, one is better at it - so it's your choice, as I stated. Just highlighting the optimum option in this instance.

 

I have to disagree with this. You've forgotten about the 5++ that Warp Talons have. Also, they have quite different functions, in my opinion. However, one thing at a time:

 

1) Warp Talons are actually more resilient than bikers against threats such as plasma or melta, and are still as resilient against threats such as AP3 or better weapons, such as vengeance rounds, depending on circumstances. If a biker is wounded by a plasma or melta weapon, he is dead, if he hasn't turbo-boosted. No saves, just toast. If a Warp Talon is wounded by the same weapon, he has a 5+ invul, so, unless the biker is forgoing his ability to shoot and assault, he is going to get nuked, whereas the Warp Talon still has SOME chance of surviving. So, in all reality, they have roughly the same survivability, given the fact that a biker must slow down to do anything, thereby relinquishing his awesome jink save. Against threats such as bolters and lasguns, both are roughly the same as well, although the bikers beat out the WT's slightly, with bolters only wounding bikers on 6's.

 

2) Warp Talons have lightning claws, which are still awesome, especially when they only cost 10pts, instead of 30 like other codexes must pay. The 5++ is also very, very nice on a regular power armor model. So, a Warp Talon is actually very, VERY cheap for what it has base. Now, obviously, bikers have advantages over WT's, one being the extra toughness, and another being their higher overall speed. However, bikes must go around such things a impassible terrain, which is something WT's need not fear, and the 2D6 charge distance has greatly enhanced the charging ability of units such as jump infantry, since they now have a rough charge range of 19 inches, on average. A bike actually has the same charge range, since going faster than that requires it to turbo-boost, thereby forgoing said charge. Thus, they actually have the same overall 'threat range.' Ergo, one is not better, just different.

 

Warp Talons excel at surprise attacks, absolutely shredding defending objective holders, and wiping out enemy heavy support troops, such as long fangs, devastators, and havocs. Bikers, on the other hand, are one of the greatest fast AT units in the game right now. Honestly, right now, nobody does hit-and-run AT better than chaos bikers. period. Their ability to take two meltas and a combi-melta in a 118 pt, T6 squad is just amazing. I am not arguing with their jaw-dropping point efficiency or their ability to utterly terrify opponents with tons of armor. However, they DO NOT fulfill the same role as Warp Talons, because Warp Talons are designed to kill infantry, and boy do they ever do it well. They even rip through terminators pretty easily, actually, which is something bikers most certainly CANNOT do. My point is when you compare WT's to bikers strictly on the basis of who is faster or who is tougher, yes, bikers win. However, bikers cannot, and will not, kill as efficiently as WT's. So, in that respect, WT's are actually better than bikers. However, I think that they are actually not comparable at all, since they fulfill completely different roles on the battlefield. That's like comparing a Pred to a vindicator. That's just silly, since they have completely different battlefield roles, and honestly do their particular role very, very well.

 

So, in conclusion, it's really about what you want from your FA slots. Do you want lightning fast anti-tank? Bikers it is, my friend! Do you want fast, terrifying anti-infantry with the ability to cover large distances, no matter the obstacles in the way? Warp Talons it is! Do you want a slightly less resilient combination of both those roles? Raptors! These units, especially the Warp Talons and Bikers, are not really comparable, since they do completely different tasks on the battlefield.