Warp Talons: Surprising utility

[minionboy]

1) Warp Talons are actually more resilient than bikers against threats such as plasma or melta, and are still as resilient against threats such as AP3 or better weapons, such as vengeance rounds, depending on circumstances. If a biker is wounded by a plasma or melta weapon, he is dead, if he hasn't turbo-boosted. No saves, just toast. If a Warp Talon is wounded by the same weapon, he has a 5+ invul, so, unless the biker is forgoing his ability to shoot and assault, he is going to get nuked, whereas the Warp Talon still has SOME chance of surviving. So, in all reality, they have roughly the same survivability, given the fact that a biker must slow down to do anything, thereby relinquishing his awesome jink save. Against threats such as bolters and lasguns, both are roughly the same as well, although the bikers beat out the WT's slightly, with bolters only wounding bikers on 6's.

 

I just wanted to jump in here really quickly, but Jink is a 5+ cover save if you move at all, you don't need to slow down to get it, you just need to move more than 0". If you do turbo-boost however, then the Jink is increased to 4+.

[Kol Saresk]

Is a 5+(4+) Cover Save equivalent to a 5+ Invul Save or is just a different type of save?

[Gresiloth]

Well, it's bypassed by Ignores Cover weapons, for one thing...

[minionboy]

Well, it's bypassed by Ignores Cover weapons, for one thing...

 

True, though the number of Ignores Cover Save weapons that are also AP2/3 are pretty damn rare. Flamers of Tzeentch and Helldrake are probably going to be the most likely source of these, maybe the occasional Liquifier.

[Iron_Within]

In a Chaos vs Chaos game my opponent used a unit of 8 possessed along with a Nurgle Sorc in a Land Raider. It took me forever to kill the dam unit, it managed to beat: A lord, 2 units of 10 Chaos Marines each, 5 Khornate Bikers. Covered turn 2 till 5 of the game. The unfortunate thing for him was while this was going on my firebase and Daemon Prince were ripping through the rest of his army.

 

The possessed were Nurgle, The Champ having 2 Boons, The Sorc had Enfeeble and Gift of Contagion. Having your Marines and S and T 2 is not nice, especially when he rolls ap3. The Champ took on my Lord over 3 rounds eventually beating him and becoming even more bloated. The unit was whittled down to horribly powerful Champion, the Sorcerer and a possessed. Problem was that after he defeated theses guys I had 4 heavy bolters, 4 autocannons, 4 Missile Launchers, 2 plasma guns and 8 bolters (all rapid firing) pointing at them, with a Prince ready to leap in after.... needless to say, he didn't need to jump in.

[compgeek1602]

@Minieboy- Thank you for the correction, as I had forgotten about that slight caveat, and it is important, for sure, since it means that bikers are definitely more resilient than Warp Talons. However, my point that both have the same resilience against the really high strength weapons is still valid. From the games I've seen, bikers turbo-boost first turn, then never really boost again, unless they have to cover a very large distance. Usually, though, a target of opportunity precludes this, and most people shoot only high strength weapons at nurgle bikers, since they know nothing else will work.

 

Although ignores cover AP3 weapons are less common, they are not precisely rare, as redeemers (a tank available in no less than 4 armies), baal preds, banewolves, and colossi are all AP3 and ignore cover. When added to heldrakes, liquifiers, and flamers of tzeentch, this threat to bikes isn't something that can just be dismissed out of hand.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that bikes are incredibly effective, especially for the stunningly low price of 26 pts per model (MoN added in there), but I still think that Warp Talons have a place as an extremely effective anti-infantry unit. I've used them on terminators to incredible effect, slashing through entire squads of even TH/SS termies in a single turn.

[Lieutenant Steel]

I've used them on terminators to incredible effect, slashing through entire squads of even TH/SS termies in a single turn.

 

How? Warp Talons are AP3 aren't they? Did you just beat them down with sheer number of attacks (like having 10 charging WTs vs 4 Termies)?

[Chaeron]

I've used them on terminators to incredible effect, slashing through entire squads of even TH/SS termies in a single turn.

 

How? Warp Talons are AP3 aren't they? Did you just beat them down with sheer number of attacks (like having 10 charging WTs vs 4 Termies)?

 

I would imagine luck..!

 

Nor, would I say this is representative of their typical performance (via Math-hammer).

[Kol Saresk]

Well Math-hammer is theoretical vs a specific opponent. I believe the usual is some sort Space Marine Unit such TH/SS Terminators. That theoretical is then said to be the "typical" when not everyone goes up against TH/SS Termies or even a Loyalist SM army. It does take into account what a person normally rolls or what else they may fight. So what is typical could very well end up being "atypical" as far as math-hammer goes.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Well Math-hammer is theoretical vs a specific opponent. I believe the usual is some sort Space Marine Unit such TH/SS Terminators. That theoretical is then said to be the "typical" when not everyone goes up against TH/SS Termies or even a Loyalist SM army. It does take into account what a person normally rolls or what else they may fight. So what is typical could very well end up being "atypical" as far as math-hammer goes.

 

Most people that Math Hammer seriously would look at all average stat-lines that might be encountered; there have been a few threads I've seen (over at the 40K forums) where someone compared the different units + Marks to both MEq and IGEq, as there are various xenos that conform to those statlines. If you want a comparison against any others (Orks being unusual for example) you should ask the person performing said MHammer, usually it doesn't take long for them to get back to you with.

 

Of course it's only so good to a point but it's basically the way that everyone everywhere, from bankers and politicians to bookies and betting fans, uses to calculate the odds of something happening to maximise their chances of winning before they have done anything- it's basically the 21st Century adaptation of Tsun Tzu's philosophies, and you cannot deny that it is a powerful tool.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah the funny part is that those guys(politicians, bankers, etc) are going for the potential, what is least likely to happen and then decide to either encourage or discourage that potential. Math-hammer..... Not so much. And unfortunately, this isn't poker. If you play like you can count the cards, you will lose when that one squad of grotlings tears up your GK Termy Squad. It's a very unlikely event, but it does an will happening and most likely more often than probability says it should. It is a sound concept to discover averages within the game and what the average statline versus a specific unit should be, but what "should" happen tends to have a habit of not happening. For example, I was talking a guy yesterday while I was in the LGS. He has a GK army with IG allies. Three times he played against someone with a Warp Talon list. Three times he lost. He even showed me the videos he took on his phone. IIRC, the Math-Hammer list says a Warp Talon shouldn't work that well period. But it did three times against a statistically better list.

 

Basically, what "should" happen or theoretical "typical perfomance" aren't always able to decide things. It might work better in a malleable environment such as the economy or politics, but in a fixed environment that is constantly resetting the numbers, it should be easier, but that doesn't mean it is.

[minionboy]

@Minieboy- Thank you for the correction, as I had forgotten about that slight caveat, and it is important, for sure, since it means that bikers are definitely more resilient than Warp Talons. However, my point that both have the same resilience against the really high strength weapons is still valid. From the games I've seen, bikers turbo-boost first turn, then never really boost again, unless they have to cover a very large distance. Usually, though, a target of opportunity precludes this, and most people shoot only high strength weapons at nurgle bikers, since they know nothing else will work.

 

Although ignores cover AP3 weapons are less common, they are not precisely rare, as redeemers (a tank available in no less than 4 armies), baal preds, banewolves, and colossi are all AP3 and ignore cover. When added to heldrakes, liquifiers, and flamers of tzeentch, this threat to bikes isn't something that can just be dismissed out of hand.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that bikes are incredibly effective, especially for the stunningly low price of 26 pts per model (MoN added in there), but I still think that Warp Talons have a place as an extremely effective anti-infantry unit. I've used them on terminators to incredible effect, slashing through entire squads of even TH/SS termies in a single turn.

 

Minionboy, but that's okay, you can call me Adam.

 

Boosting aside, that just means that it's 5+ vs 5+ most of the time. From a standpoint of pure resilience, you really can't get anything tougher than a Nurgle biker for the points. I don't mean to sound dismissive, but I've never seen a player use a Redeemer in a competitive environment, similarly Banewolves and and Colossi are just not seen in tournaments generally (at least on the west coast).

 

That said, I don't want to sound like I hate Warp Talons or something, I just don't think they're as resilient as you make them out to be. I typically prefer to keep mine with mark of slaanesh as a counter-charge unit in the backfield.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Basically, what "should" happen or theoretical "typical perfomance" aren't always able to decide things.

Of course probability can't 'decide' things, it is just that it is the only conceivable way that you can make a battle plan; if you want to spend every game shooting Grots with your Terminator squads, for fear that you'll get mugged, be my guest but you'll be wasting your time- you cannot make a battle plan based around what could happen to you a small percentage of the time: you'd be there all day trying to cover yourself against things that are incredibly unlikely to happen.

 

If instead you based your plans on what is actually *very likely* to happen you can react accordingly and with the appropriate force, having already ensured you have a counter attack unit available, before you know you'll need it. It's part of being a smart general.

 

Why would Warp Talons struggle against GK? Most Grey Knights are Power Armoured aren't they? So as long as the Talons target the best enemy unit for their abilities to affect (i.e. anything with a 3+ save) they should kick ass *most of the time*, instead of killing some Termies in one game and then trying the same thing again in other games and getting their butts handed to them leaving you thinking 'Well what the heck, why are they all dead? Taking on Terminators worked last game!?!'

 

If I took them I think the Mark of Slaanesh would be a very good way to go with them; I ran a unit of Chosen with Lightning Claws, Jump Packs and M.o.S in the 4th Chaos dex and it was a beast (though very expensive, obv.), usually killing their points worth of the enemy and then some.

 

EDIT: And seeing as we're talking about theoretical subjects like Math-Hammer, I was talking about the theoretical side of [politics, banking/ other subjects]; you know, the side of them that you're supposed to consider before they get put into practice and corrupted by 'human factors' :unsure:

[Kol Saresk]

Basically, what "should" happen or theoretical "typical perfomance" aren't always able to decide things.

Of course probability can't 'decide' things, it is just that it is the only conceivable way that you can make a battle plan; if you want to spend every game shooting Grots with your Terminator squads, for fear that you'll get mugged, be my guest but you'll be wasting your time- you cannot make a battle plan based around what could happen to you a small percentage of the time: you'd be there all day trying to cover yourself against things that are incredibly unlikely to happen.

 

If instead you based your plans on what is actually *very likely* to happen you can react accordingly and with the appropriate force, having already ensured you have a counter attack unit available, before you know you'll need it. It's part of being a smart general.

This I do agree with. Military tactics from real life do disagree with you though. And I will say you're misunderstanding where I am coming from, which is okay since I never said. I am for taking the risks. However, the math-hammer and most of the people who do it here, are for minimizing the risks. They are the people who would make a squad of Terminators and sick it on Grots the whole game in the belief "As long as it kills it does its job."

 

Why would Warp Talons struggle against GK? Most Grey Knights are Power Armoured aren't they? So as long as the Talons target the best enemy unit for their abilities to affect (i.e. anything with a 3+ save) they should kick ass *most of the time*, instead of killing some Termies in one game and then trying the same thing again in other games and getting their butts handed to them leaving you thinking 'Well what the heck, why are they all dead? Taking on Terminators worked last game!?!'

Yes and no. Yes, I believe in target priority. No, the math-hammers don't. Most assume that you are going up against a specific build that you are attacking a specific unit within that build and so they generate numbers for that specific situation and call it "average." That's my biggest beef with it. Because AP 3 isn't the best thing against Terminators, it's consider unviable against everything else. No. If it works against the majority of the army then it's good. Worry about an entire filled with Termy-killing units when you face Deathwing or some other Terminator army, which I think the other one is a GK list that doesn't even get used that much anymore as a competitive build. But math-hammer says since it can't take down Terminators every game without a little bit of luck, it's a no-go.

 

If I took them I think the Mark of Slaanesh would be a very good way to go with them; I ran a unit of Chosen with Lightning Claws, Jump Packs and M.o.S in the 4th Chaos dex and it was a beast (though very expensive, obv.), usually killing their points worth of the enemy and then some.

Inspiration. I like it.

 

EDIT: And seeing as we're talking about theoretical subjects like Math-Hammer, I was talking about the theoretical side of [politics, banking/ other subjects]; you know, the side of them that you're supposed to consider before they get put into practice and corrupted by 'human factors' :yes:

Yeah I got it, I just pointing out why one situation may work as an analogy, it's not exactly comparable due to the 'human factors.' Those are somewhat mitigated in the tabletop thankfully.

[Lieutenant Steel]

Why would Warp Talons struggle against GK? Most Grey Knights are Power Armoured aren't they? So as long as the Talons target the best enemy unit for their abilities to affect (i.e. anything with a 3+ save) they should kick ass *most of the time*, instead of killing some Termies in one game and then trying the same thing again in other games and getting their butts handed to them leaving you thinking 'Well what the heck, why are they all dead? Taking on Terminators worked last game!?!'

Yes and no. Yes, I believe in target priority. No, the math-hammers don't. Most assume that you are going up against a specific build that you are attacking a specific unit within that build and so they generate numbers for that specific situation and call it "average." That's my biggest beef with it. Because AP 3 isn't the best thing against Terminators, it's consider unviable against everything else.

I think we must have seen a completely different side of Math-Hammer being put into practice- to my knowledge when someone is comparing a unit's efficiency it is compared against not only Terminator equivalents (TEq) but Marine and Imperial Guard equivalents as well (MEq and IGEq respectively), and a unit's 'efficiency rating' if you want to call it that just sort of gets a tick for each box that it can fulfil. It would be fairly pointless - as we've established - to discount the fcat that you can run into different opponents because what doesn't work against one thing (Warp Talons vs. Terminators for example) doesn't stop that unit having other roles. We wouldn't claim that Havoks are terrible because they can't beat MEq in close combat, so why would we say that W.Talons are terrible because they can't beat Terminators?

 

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Has anyone actually had experience using Warp Talons with the Mark of Nurgle in several games? I'm curious how well the extra Toughness works in blunting enemy retaliation.

 

The more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of giving Warp Talons an offensive Mark (Khorne or Slaanesh) because the last thing you want to do is destroy the enemy in your turn, leaving yourself open to enemy fire- if you can kill the majority of the enemy unit, then blunt their return attacks with a defensive Mark (Nurgle or Tzeentch) you can minimise casualties and make sure you don't leave your Talons as sitting ducks- but still win combat in the opponents turn so that you can move and assault again in yours.

[compgeek1602]

Holy cow, I'm glad to see so many people interested in discussing the pros and cons of the new units.

 

Alright, it was not luck against the termies. When you hit a unit with 30 re-rolling to-hit and -wound attacks, you WILL kill it, regardless of its save. Not in one turn, obviously, but When I run terminators, what I've seen is that they are quite obviously resilient, however, they die to tons of AP nothing attacks. I don't even send super-units against termies anymore, because it's not worth it to waste amazing S8 attacks on something that still gets a 3+ save. However, if a unit of ten Warp Talons with VotLW hits a unit of termies, they will kill an average of 3-4 TH/SS termies. Math-hammer isn't always accurate, of course, but it is a good rough estimate of what you can espect.

 

Now, the reason most people compare units to such things as thunder hammer storm shield terminators is because that is one of the nastier units around. What's the point in seeing how Warp Talons will fare against something like a squad of orc boys? We KNOW how that's going to go. Obviously there are other units that could be used, but a unit of TH/SS termies is something most people have fought against or used, and it's a very resilient, very nasty squad, so it pops up in a number of games.

 

@Lieutenant Steel- I have used Warp Talons in 9 games now, and I love them. I use MoN and VotLW on them, and they are one of my favorite units now. I started this, originally, to see what other had found about the units that are scorned in our new codex, but in using Warp Talons, I've found that they are one of the most under-appreciated units in the codex. They move very quickly, although obviously not as fast as bikes, they are still very tough, and they tear through just about everything they hit. The really nice thing about MoN and a 5++ is that it isn't taken away in CC, like bikes, and their attacks ignore 3+ and worse armor saves, so they mulch pretty much anything but terminators with ease. And, like I said before, with terminators, they are still putting out a very high number of attacks, so it really doesn't matter that they don't ignore termie armor at that point.

 

@Minionboy- Thanks Adam, sorry about the mispronunciation there, and it's alright, I don't take it as dismissive. I did use a redeemer in a tournament one time, and it did pretty well, but you're absolutely correct, it's not often seen. I was just pointing out that, especially with the heldrake running around, AP3 ignores cover is starting to become slightly more common. I totally agree that T6 is utterly amazing, and I think that bikers are one of the best units we have now, thanks to the HUGE points drop. I was simply point out that against a Thunder hammer or power fist, it doesn't matter. They will die, and die quickly, since they are still wounded on a 2+, and they have no save versus it. A Talon, on the other hand, will be wounded precisely the same, but he gets a 5++, which means he is more resilient than the biker in some situations. Obviously, the biker has the upper hand against shooting of the AP- variety, since most of it is around S4-6, and thus will be shrugged off. However, I still am of the opinion that bikers have a different role than talons, and so can't really be compared, as I said before, nobody says vindicators are better predators, since they have completely different roles. In the same manner, Warp Talons can't really be compared to bikers, since they do a different job. Can their efficiency at the job they do be compared? Sure, why not? However, saying that warp talons are slow, and thus suck, is a bit silly, since you could also say CSM are slow compared to talons, and thus suck, which we all know is just foolish, and obviously false. Of course bikers are faster than talons. Like I said before, bikes can get bogged down in situations where talons will just keep on truckin'. For instance, against terminators. I've done it on a number of occasions now, against SW and salamander terminators squads, and I've come out on top every single time. Re-rolling to hit and wound should not be underestimated, and is one of the reasons black templar LC termies are so nasty.