warptalons?.. warptalons.

[carnosaur93]

so yeah, another thread on theese suckers... i know they are terrible for their points, but i REALLY want to somehow include them in my army of Tzentcian ravenguard (i mean... lightning clawed chaos assault-marines, it cant be much more themed than that)

 

ive started to look of them as an alternative to CC-termies (you basicly just trade the 2+ for a jump pack), however as far as i understand, besides their cost, their second problem seems to be lack of granades, i beleive this could be remedied by attaching a jump-lord or sorc, essentially usung the warptalons as a retinue for him

 

the plan is NOT to deepstrike them (i can have plenty of deepstrikers through allied daemons), but have them deployed as close as possible where they can still hide, and then pounce unsuspecting squads of marines or other 3+ armored things

 

 

so... any thoughts on the matter? might it be possible to use them for atleast something? and if so, how?

 

note: i wont be using any marks but tzeentch, and would prefer to do so, but i guess staying unmarked is an option, too...

[techsoldaten]

so yeah, another thread on theese suckers... i know they are terrible for their points, but i REALLY want to somehow include them in my army of Tzentcian ravenguard (i mean... lightning clawed chaos assault-marines, it cant be much more themed than that)

...

 

so... any thoughts on the matter? might it be possible to use them for atleast something? and if so, how?

Well, if you really want to include them in your army, go ahead. But realize they are every expensive close combat specialists, you are paying dearly for the blind rule, and they don't stack up even to normal raptors very well.

 

In terms of what to use them for, maybe there are some situations where they can jump out from behind cover and assault MEQ. That's about all I got.

[tvih]

How would the Lord help? As far as I know the Initiative penalty for charging to difficult terrain applies per model, so even if your lord has 'nades, it won't help the Talons.

 

Aside from that I guess the whole problem is not having any cannon fodder models in the unit. Since all models cost 30+ points, any casualty is bad. But when they do get to hit something, they're quite killy. After all you're getting a model with jump movement and 2 attacks (+1 if charging obviously) with rerolls to wound. It's not a terrible price to pay for any power weapon model, really. So it's not bad as such, but getting shot before you get to do that charge can indeed get expensive. It's the same problem that units such as Honour Guard have, though while they get 2+ they lack the invulnerability save as well as extra mobility and as such can be difficult to use to their full potential and losing even one model is nasty.

 

I suppose one option would be to try to hide the Talons behind Rhinos that are also charging towards the enemy, anything to allow as many of them as possible to survive. Or if the enemy is of the assault-y persuasion as well, wait in hiding 'til they come closer, then pounce.

 

Oh and ouch, just realized that MoT costs 8 a piece for them... so 38 per model. A 4+ Invulnerability save is quite nice, though. If you survive to make the charge, cool, if not, I suppose it's just an expensive waste of points. But I suppose that applies to a lot of units unfortunately. Like the DV Chosen models. Lots of power weapons, no quick way to get into combat. Not a nice combo.

[totgeboren]

I just have to ask. How would attaching an IC help with their lack of grenades? I though the initiative penalty was on a per-model basis?

Other than that, I'm clueless. Had the blind rule been 12", they would be great as disrupters of gunlines and such, but with their current rules, I just don't know.

[carnosaur93]

Well, if you really want to include them in your army, go ahead. But realize they are every expensive close combat specialists, you are paying dearly for the blind rule, and they don't stack up even to normal raptors very well.

 

as said, i dont really intend to DS them, so the blind is pretty much out of the equation (besides, it doesnt really seem like a gamechanger, much like fear that raptors have aswell)

 

the idea is to either (as you point out) use a small squad for taking out squads of 3+ armored things, or to use them as a retinue for a jumping HQ (likely in pretty much the same role) where their lack of granades is not a problem.

 

 

I just have to ask. How would attaching an IC help with their lack of grenades? I though the initiative penalty was on a per-model basis?

 

as far as i understand, you only need one model in a unit to negate the cover bonuses for being charged, then again, might have changed in 6th without me realizing, even if that would make no logical sense at all, being cool in your trench becouse not ALL of the guys running at you are throwing granades down at your feet

[Jonah]

I posted this in a another thread but it was about Raptors & Bikers so it's much more relevant here:

 

Warp Talons have been scoffed at because of their high cost and lack of 'nades. But let's break the cost down for as-they-come squads:

 

Raptor + 2 LCs = 49/51 pts

Biker Champ + 2 LCs = 53/54 pts (ish)

Talon = 32/35 pts

 

(with/without VotLW)

 

The Raptor gets grenades while the Talon gets 5++.

 

That's quite a big discount on the LCs. In fact the Talon himself only costs 2 points more than the weapons he's carrying.

 

Now consider his biggest criticism; lack of grenades. Here's a thought - don't assault guys in cover. We have other tools to deal with campers, like Baleflamers and Skalathrax.

 

Lets do some quick math with a 190-point Talon squad (VotLW, Slaanesh) smacking into a pesky 10-man tactical squad of roughly the same points: 12 attacks hit, 9 wound. That's 9 dead marines before they get to hit back. The Talons have almost eaten their points back in a single assault (against a unit twice their size).

 

I know those are ideal conditions but thats math hammer for you. So how can this work in practice? Let's look at reliable deployments:

 

• Trailing a Rhino
  
• Infiltrate with Huron or 1/6 games
  
• Outflank with Slaanesh Steed
  
• Deepstrike 12-18 inches away
  

The Rhino is the more likely option as they are more common in our armies, and having a Dirge next to your Talons is mega handy. Infiltrating is sort of situational but it could come up 1 in 6 games if you don't have Huron. Outflanking is the bomb if you're packing a Slaanesh Sorcerer as the Sorc can buff the Talons. Deepstriking is cool so long as there's something to DS behind and you can get the positioning right so you can assault next turn.

 

And then there's Warpflame Strike. For me Blind is a cool trick to have up your sleeve but it certainly should not be your primary method of deployment; you're quite likely to scatter on top of your enemy or for them to pass their Initiative test. Then you get rapid-fired in the face. This should only be used against models with very low Initiative like Necrons, and even then only if there aren't several other units nearby. Very, very situational.

 

So yeah, Warp Talons. They are a precision tool as opposed to the omni-tool Raptors & Bikers, but I don't think they are over-costed at all. They want to be supported - Slaanesh Sorc, Dirge Rhino, Huron, 2nd Warp Talon squad; these will all work well. You will also have to take other units for camper-busting. But I think they are a very cool unit and if you use them effectively they can be devastating.

[carnosaur93]

very insigtfull, Jonah... makes me wish i were doing slaneesh worshippers, since the other slaneesh stuff seems to work very well with them

 

however i do feel that only targetting MEQ's out of cover is abit too specific, even if that is where they excel... as said though, the whole "in cover" thing could as ive mentioned be solved by having something with granades attached to the squad (unless as ive also mentioned, it doesnt work like that anymore). this should leave them with 1/3rd of every unit in the game as a potential target for them

 

so... in terms of attachments, would it be better to go for a sorc' or lord to join them? one is obviously good for combat support, the other potentially alot of different support. also, how would one best equip such attached IC's? (keeping undivided or tzeentch in mind)

[Jonah]

I would go with the Outflanking Slaanesh Sorc because they're great fun and may force your opponent to avoid the table edges and maybe even make mistakes during deployment. Also with a Sorc you can tailor his spells to make up for any deficiencies your army may have.

 

As a Primaris you can have Sensory Overload which is the equivalent of applying covering fire to your Talons. When they enter you cast this bad boy on anything that might shoot at you and you could Blind or Pin them. Cast it again on the following turn on a unit you want to assault and you could reduce their Initiative as well as their WS.

 

Or if you prefer you might get lucky and roll Hysterical Frenzy giving your Talons a boost in Initiative, Strength or Attacks. This is a Benediction so you can still use the Primaris as well as this.

 

Even better is Symphony of Pain with which you can get a more reliable reduction to an enemy's WS and BS, also it's a Malediction so you can still cast the other 2 spells afterwards.

 

A Sorc with all 3 powers in Slaanesh is pretty awesome. There's a chance you'll get Ecstatic Seizures which is much less reliable but having at least 2 of the above options will be a great boon to the Talons.

 

Edit - Give the Sorc Skalathrax and you're laughing; a 24" range AP3 template coming in from Outflank? There's a good reason the Talons didn't bother packing their grenades..

[the jeske]

Lets do some quick math with a 190-point Talon squad (VotLW, Slaanesh) smacking into a pesky 10-man tactical squad of roughly the same points: 12 attacks hit, 9 wound. That's 9 dead marines before they get to hit back. The Talons have almost eaten their points back in a single assault (against a unit twice their size)

how do +3 sv dudes without high av transport get in to hth with full numbers in a shoting focused edition . the problem is not that they hit at i1 a lot , nor is it you comparing them to a weak unit[check what happens when they charge a 190 pts of gh in cover] , but the fact that they die like meq while being costed like terminators , but without +2 sv or shoting abilities .

 

and why would you infiltrate them , when they can only assault on turn 2 and for that to happen your opponent has to have no counter units , there must be full LoS terrain and there has to be no way to shot/assault them if you dont start. not even Ig plays static gunline anymore . more for the same points you could infitrate terminators have a realy tough unit in or outside of LoS and it would be deadly because of 5-10 combi plas.

[Sinners Red]

I think what we are seeing is that the Warp Talon is a specific and precision tool and a player has to know how to use them correctly. There are also a lot of factors to consider, terrain/lack of it, screening/cover provided by other units, under estimations of the unit, or convincing your opponent to not shot at your warp talons as they move in for the kill.

 

I don't think that the average player would have the patience, skill or even the luck to make Warp Talons successful.

I don't think I could make it work, but that doesn't mean someone else can't.

[Sception]

For tzeentch, remember that Ahriman has MoD as a set warlord trait, just like Huron, so that could help while sticking to your theme.

 

The problem with tzeentch talons is that, while the 4++ is theoretically nice, the units most likely to be rocking power weapons on any large scale are also likely to be wearing 2+ armor, basically rendering your expensive lightning claws useless. ideally, you'd want to use an attached hero, if any, to take out enemy 2+ models before they have a chance to decimate your talons, but that restricts you to MoK, as none of the other alignments have access to AP2 at init, or even rending as a substitute.

 

Tzeentch gives you strong protection against low ap shooting that happens to catch the squad with their pants down, but unfortunately they're still incredibly fragile for their points when it comes to facing small arms fire, and the invulnerable does nothing for you there.

 

 

You would think a unit of lightning claws and 4++ saves would be great, the designers apparently thought they were, but there's really little to nothing in the game that they're actually well suited to face off against. You can use them anyway, and just run them like you would regular warp talons, just paying an arbitrary extra points penalty to call themselves tzeentch (which is what the MoT boils down to on pretty much everything bar terminator squads). But then you're throwing good points after bad.

 

 

It's not that you can't do it, and it's not that you won't get any use out of them. You'll have marine opponents who learn to fear them, who might even come to claim they're overpowered. But in the back of your mind, you'll always know that they're not really very good, and they'll let you down more times than you'd like to admit. I'm not telling you not to use them, I'm just telling you that you'll be taking a subpar unit for fluff reasons, and you should be prepared to deal with that.

 

As for how to use them, it's not rocket surgery. Use a lot of line of sight blocking terrain, preferably of the impassable variety, and jump out at any 3+ save unit that comes too close, preferably lining things up so that you can't wipe them all out in your initial charge. If you want to add a character, take a tzeentch marked hero with sigil, jump pack, and fisticlaws. At the very least, he'll be reasonably okay at challenges with a 3++ save and choice of lightning claws or power fists. Alternatively, you could go with pure style over substance and take the murder sword instead of the fisticlaws, trying to ensure via positioning that you can base your target, but... I really don't recommend it.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Despite my tremendous misgivings concerning how this unit was written and evidently intended to be played, I do plan on having a go at Tzeentch or Slaaneshi Warp Talons. The 4++ (or I5) and AP3 with a jump pack seems like it may offset the high cost, but I won't know until I've put them down a few times.

 

The question in my mind is this: is 5 enough to have a good chance of earning their points back, or do we need to raise both the number of Warp Talons and therefore the stakes? What's a good number here?

 

And, if we're dedicated to the idea of fielding them, is adding VotLW a "must have" considering their intended victims? I'm tending to think that if the unit is supposed to be marine killers, then wouldn't the marine-fighter buff be a given?

 

EDIT: Slaanesh does seem better, after thinking about it.

[Jonah]

how do +3 sv dudes without high av transport get in to hth with full numbers in a shoting focused edition . the problem is not that they hit at i1 a lot , nor is it you comparing them to a weak unit[check what happens when they charge a 190 pts of gh in cover] , but the fact that they die like meq while being costed like terminators , but without +2 sv or shoting abilities .

 

and why would you infiltrate them , when they can only assault on turn 2 and for that to happen your opponent has to have no counter units , there must be full LoS terrain and there has to be no way to shot/assault them if you dont start. not even Ig plays static gunline anymore . more for the same points you could infitrate terminators have a realy tough unit in or outside of LoS and it would be deadly because of 5-10 combi plas.

 

I did say it was an ideal situation :) and that they shouldn't assault things in cover.

 

They are comparable to Termies because they're trading +1 armour save and shooting offence for 12" movement and assaulting offence.

 

And you're right, you usually wouldn't want to Infiltrate them, but there are uses for this like baiting, picking off stragglers or ambushing enemy transports that your other forces can pop.

 

Paired with a Skalathrax-wielding Lv.3 Slaaneshi Steed Sorc I think these guys can be brutal and totally worth their points.

[Jonah]

Despite my tremendous misgivings concerning how this unit was written and evidently intended to be played, I do plan on having a go at Tzeentch Warp Talons. The 4++ and AP3 with a jump pack seems like it may offset the high cost, but I won't know until I've put them down a few times.

 

The question in my mind is this: is 5 enough to have a good chance of earning their points back, or do we need to raise both the number of Warp Talons and therefore the stakes? What's a good number here?

 

And, if we're dedicated to the idea of fielding them, is adding VotLW a "must have" considering their intended victims? I'm tending to think that if the unit is supposed to be marine killers, then wouldn't the marine-fighter buff be a given?

 

I think like Plague Marines 7 is a decent number, but this would depend on the rest of the list and the points limit. I probably wouldn't field Talons in lists below 1750 and I'd wait till 2000 before thinking about giving them more than 7 guys in the squad.

 

For me VotLW is a must-have yeah, as you point out they're Marine killers, and the rule is so damn fluffy I don't feel bad if I face non-marines. That's when the Talon's Fear ability comes into play anyway, unless you get Necrons :)

[Azekai]

That's when the Talon's Fear ability comes into play anyway, unless you get Necrons

Of course, if you are fighting 'crons, how your warptalons are kitted out is the least of your worries. :)

[tvih]

And, if we're dedicated to the idea of fielding them, is adding VotLW a "must have" considering their intended victims? I'm tending to think that if the unit is supposed to be marine killers, then wouldn't the marine-fighter buff be a given?

I'd say yes, unless the chance of ending up facing marines is very low. After all it's a great buff. 75% chance instead of 50% to hit MEq? Yes please! Considering a group of 5 does (4*3)+(1*4)=16 attacks on the charge, that's on average 8 hitting without VotLW, 12 with. At only 3 points per model, it's definitely worth it.

[Minsc]

Warptalons are overpriced and very subpar, but unlike Mutilators, they are not entirely useless.

 

Also, since I (unlike Mutilators), like the fluff and the model's for Warptalons, I intend to run a unit.

When I field them, it will be 5 with MoN, and I will use them as a counter-charge / bully-unit, picking on/and finnishing of weakened targets.

[Emperors Immortals]

Despite initail misgivinggs I have run one 7man unit twice now, VoTLW 2xGOM and MoS - expensive at 268pts but with an added IC MoS and the bells and whistles made a nearly unstopable harrasment unit.

 

Im used to BA JP so i ran them similar, hop from cover to cover - mostly terain to rhino and back - by 3rd turn i found easy positioning for wide choice of targets.

 

They compeletly annhilated IG backed with front line defiler with dirge (massive dirge footprint) clearing a flank by themselves, and made a huge difference against a Ultra gun line i played against but I think I might still choose bikers for almost every job I can see for them.

 

Next time I might drop the IC and just run them as a 2ns wave charge/countercharge unit and general harasment unit.

 

 

 

I want them to work.....

[Jonah]

2xGOM

 

Like a boss!

[arizonajirt]

im trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying that warp talons are overpriced. i look at warp talons as the CSM equivelent to vanguard vets in the SM codex. if you compare what you get for a squad of warp talons to what you get in a squad of vanguard vets kitted out with jump packs and a pair of lightning claws, you are paying near double. maybe im looking at this wrong, but for the price, they seem pretty good to me.

[Panda_]

im trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying that warp talons are overpriced. i look at warp talons as the CSM equivelent to vanguard vets in the SM codex. if you compare what you get for a squad of warp talons to what you get in a squad of vanguard vets kitted out with jump packs and a pair of lightning claws, you are paying near double. maybe im looking at this wrong, but for the price, they seem pretty good to me.

They aren't overpriced. They don't have grenades.

 

However, their upgrades are very expensive, close to overpriced.

[the jeske]

im trying to figure out why everyone keeps saying that warp talons are overpriced. i look at warp talons as the CSM equivelent to vanguard vets in the SM codex. if you compare what you get for a squad of warp talons to what you get in a squad of vanguard vets kitted out with jump packs and a pair of lightning claws, you are paying near double. maybe im looking at this wrong, but for the price, they seem pretty good to me.

and considering no sane person takes venguard in sm and unlike venguard talons dont have Divine Intervention , what does that tell us about talons ?

They compeletly annhilated IG backed with front line defiler with dirge (massive dirge footprint) clearing a flank by themselves, and made a huge difference against a Ultra gun line i played against but I think I might still choose bikers for almost every job I can see for them.

could you tell us , how you got a defiler in to melee range against an IG army ?

 

They are comparable to Termies because they're trading +1 armour save and shooting offence for 12" movement and assaulting offence.

because terminators dont have power weapons ? terminators are actualy better in hth , because unlike talons they wont overkill the charged unit on they own turn and then eat fire from the opposing army . More terminators are going to run fists[probably 1 ] or ax[probably 2 if no fist is taken] and due to +2sv will have less problems with no granades , dudes hiting before them etc.

Also I wouldnt say that charging GH is situational , too many armies run them as main or ally detachment .

[tvih]

and considering no sane person takes venguard in sm and unlike venguard talons dont have Divine Intervention , what does that tell us about talons ?

Why? I mean, obviously with a jump pack they're far too expensive to be worth it, but as a regular foot squad they don't seem bad - except, once again, they suffer from the lack of an affordable assault vehicle. Now arguably Honour Guard - if you're using a Chapter Master that allows you to take them - are priced slightly better considering their 2+ armor save, but lacking the ability to take cheap models hurts them just like it does Talons. But Vanguard can take their "cheap" 20 point models to protect the power weapon models. But the thing with both Vanguard and Honour Guard is that if you take Kantor (who I plan on using basically whenever I play C:SM) or with HG the Chapter Banner, you get a heck of a lot more attacks than the Talons do - with CCW or power weapon 4 attacks per turn per model even without getting the charge. Now obviously that's a synergy thing rather than a built-in feature of the Vanguard, but even so they can be made pretty dangerous.

[the jeske]

But Vanguard can take their "cheap" 20 point models to protect the power weapon models. But the thing with both Vanguard and Honour Guard is that if you take Kantor (who I plan on using basically whenever I play C:SM) or with HG the Chapter Banner, you get a heck of a lot more attacks than the Talons do - with CCW or power weapon 4 attacks per turn per model even without getting the charge. Now obviously that's a synergy thing rather than a built-in feature of the Vanguard, but even so they can be made pretty dangerous.

aha so in the end you have a 500+pts deathstart that has problems with teq is +3sv and hits at i 4 or lower [depands on gear]. venguard sucked since day one . specialy when we are considering their cost and the cost of th/ss termis . chaos gets the same thing with talons . there is no way to get them in to assault range without them being targeted and even if they get in to hth , there is tons of match ups where they do nothing because LC are ap 3. all it takes is to play DW [new army coming soon] , GK [popular ] .

[tvih]

aha so in the end you have a 500+pts deathstart that has problems with teq is +3sv and hits at i 4 or lower [depands on gear]. venguard sucked since day one . specialy when we are considering their cost and the cost of th/ss termis . chaos gets the same thing with talons . there is no way to get them in to assault range without them being targeted and even if they get in to hth , there is tons of match ups where they do nothing because LC are ap 3. all it takes is to play DW [new army coming soon] , GK [popular ] .

But you see, not everyone goes "oh so A is 5% worse than B thus A sucks and is useless." Well, except the folks at my LGS. Besides, by your logic anything with a non-naked HQ and more than a couple of escorts is a death star and can't handle every opponent. And considering you can sneak in axes or even fists/hammers to a Vanguard squad easily enough, even TEq can be killed considering most TEq strikes at I1, C:CSM notwithstanding. Fact is if you want to do damage in CC with C:SM, it's basically Vanguard or Honour Guard. A full HG unit may be expensive, but when they get to hit something, the target will certainly feel it. Vanguard is just as good as something like Berzerkers. Basically almost the same cost, no Fearless or WS 5, but one more base attack, not to mention all the power weapon options as well as melta bombs for any model you want.

 

Also, terminator models have always been "cheap" compared to power weapon PA models. Hell, they are even in the Ork Codex. Ork Nob with crappy 4+ armor, a kombi-weapon and power klaw is 55 points. A meganob with 2+ and the same weapons is 40 points.

 

Does this mean everyone should stop using PA/non-TEq units that aren't naked/barebones? Not in my books. But even as naked Vanguard is hardly useless. The only thing that makes HG and Vanguard poor is the assault transport issue, and no power armored codex is exempt from that problem as it pertains to regular infantry. Hell, I find assault terminators very hard to use too, because they can't have a transport outside of a LR at all, can't charge after deep striking, and can't even shoot when out of charge range. Yet there are plenty of people who yell "OP!11!!" when they even glimpse an assault terminator.

 

And frankly I've concluded that a 2+ armor save is one of the most overrated things ever. EVERY game I field terminators in - which is almost every game - they die in droves to relatively harmless weapons. "Oh look, 7 peashooter wounds, that ain't so bad..... wait what, three of my guys just died?! Again?!!" And then there's of course the insane amount of AP2 weapons everyone here uses anyway, making armor saves a pretty much moot point.