Word Bearers, Marks, Icons and Fluff

[Excessus]

Alpha Legion =?

That sums up the whole legion pretty well, hehe

[Kol Saresk]

So to expand this across the other legion/csm warbands how do you see marks and icons working?

 

1k sons = Tzeentch + cult

World Eaters = Khorne + cult

Emperors Children = Slaanesh + cult

Death Guard = Nurgle + cult

Yep.

Night Lords = undecided? and likely to take marks but less likely to go with icons?

Yes. No. Yes. No.

Night Lords are weird because they have gone from mono-Khorne to atheist to player preference. So yes, but it isn't too hard to justify Icons. Just think of them as demanding power rather than asking for it.

Black Legion = undivided and open to all marks/icons and cult troops?

Yep.

Alpha Legion =?

Excessus hit that one on the nose. Assuming you can find the nose...

Iron Warriors = ?

Undivided/ Mixed. Marks. Icons are iffy, leaning towards nonexistent. Hate mutations. Like really hates them.

Word Bearers = undivided but possible to have marks/icons depending on how you read the background and very unlikely to have cult units?

Yep.

 

On a side note, there can be a use for the Cult Troops in any Legion/Renegade Warband from Allies to Normal Troops who are "specialized" in similar roles.

[alphariusomegon20]

If you read the Word Bearers seies, you do nocie that Wb CAN and DO have marked units, they just aren't that common. A good example is Khalaxis and his squad, which do tend to Khorne worship. I took this to mean they would be Khorne Marked, though not berserkers.

 

As for Drak'shal being slaaneshi, I honestly don't remember it ever being stated in the books what type of daemon he was. if anyone can give a book and page citation, it would be greatly helpful.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, so I have engaged on a perilous journey of about three hours worth of skimming through the Word Bearers series. Here is what I found. Note; Page numbers are for the omnibus. My original individual copies were destroyed in an unfortunate accident involving T-tops(or lack thereof), bad timing and usual Florida weather, a.k.a. sunshine with a 99.9999% chance of rain. So I will list title, chapter and omnibus page number to aid in locations of the quotes.

 

Dark Apostle, Chapter 13, Page 141

'It pleases me that you can at times be honest, Burias,' said Marduk lightly. Before the Icon Bearer could respond, he continued, 'Is it the lure of Slaanesh, your endless desire to raise yourself, to better yourself?'

 

'It is not perfection I seek, First Acolyte, as you know. I don't need perfection to attain that which I desire.'

Notice, he does not deny that it is the lure of Slaanesh, nor does he deny what his desires might be, only that he does not seek perfection, only the desire to rise in rank. Although, since daemons are supposed to be aligned, I imagine it would be difficult for a host to be aligned to a God other than the patron of his daemon. I imagine that even if it was an Undivided daemon like a fury, it would still have trouble even thinking of aligning to a specific power.

 

Dark Disciple, Chapter 12, Pages 399-400

The daemon was one of Khorne's minions, a foot soldier of the Lord of the Brazen Skull Throne, and its flesg was the colour of congealed blood. It uncurled from its hunched, foetal position as the last vestiges of its birth-sac dropped away, and it sucked in a deep breath, its first in the material realm.

 

[skipped three paragraphs that described what it looked like. Irrelevant material.]

 

It snarled, eyes narrowing as it looked upon the red-armoured figures of the Word Bearers. Its gaze met Burias-Drakshal's, and its muscles tensed as it prepared to hurl itself at the possessed warrior, the runes upon its hellblade glowing like lava.

Now again, this is speculation that follows a similar argument as what followed the first quote. There were seven other Bloodletters present at the scene, but they did not attack each other. So being Khornate and only caring about killing is excluded. But it did view Drak'shal as a rival of sorts from another God. Maybe Undivided.

 

These two quotes are merely conjecture reinforced with the fact that Burias was a warrior whose ultimate concern was his status as a warrior and to rise in the ranks. He also has no scars on his body thanks to the daemon and took great offense to an Imperial Guardsman who shot him in the face, so there definitely is the vanity plea.

 

But in the end, it was all speculation on my part. I apologize because I honestly did remember somewhere stating that it was a Slaaneshi daemon. Although there is the chance that someone else may do a more thorough rereading and actually find it or something that contradicts it. Again, I do apologize for misleading people.

[Antarius]

It seems the "new take" inasmuch as it really is new, is that marks are more a symbol of the attention and approval of a God, rather than a function of worship (see FFG's "Black Crusade", ADB's Night Lords et al). Icons are certainly a symbol of allegiance with the possible exception of the IoV (but I guess you could fix up a good story for pretty much all the icons if you wanted a non-worshipping bunch to have something like an Icon).

 

In other words, the Gods mark you if they think you are worthy -and in fact you have no say at all in the matter. On the other hand, you choose to carry an Icon as a manifestation of your worship (and presumably the God in question rewards you for said manifestation).

 

Having both makes perfect sense for WB, as far as I can tell. They certainly run around doing stuff that would merit the attention of the Gods and they actively worship the Gods. Even if the legion as a whole takes a "balanced" approach to Chaos worship, why wouldn't one squad carry an Icon to honour Khorne while another did the same for Tzeentch? They certainly venerate the Gods individually as well as collectively, so why would they not carry Icons to the individual Gods as well?

If this rankles with some notion of "purity" think of it like this: The Word Bearer Legion as a collective entity worship the whole pantheon. They are the "Church of Chaos" if you will. Within this church there's a wealth of different worship with the same overall object; the veneration of Chaos.

It's like when a Catholic offers up prayer to one of the saints he's not not worshipping God at the same time. Or, like in ancient pantheons, you venerated all the Gods and worshipped somewhat situationally (i.e. if you wanted to go on a sea voyage you made sure you appeased Poseidon, if you lived in Athens you probably worshipped Athene more than others but you sure didn't balk at praying to Zeus because of that).

 

Honestly, I could even see Cult Troops for the Word Bearers. Because why not? If one of the Gods you worship fanatically calls on you to accept the (all but) greatest honour a mortal can achieve, do you really think you'd go "Nuh-uh, beeyatch. I'm like undivided, yo!" (considering the Gods' general disposition this likely wouldn't end well for the worshipper -although that is perhaps irrelevant). Besides, it's not like it says anywhere that a Plague Marine has to think Khorne (or even Tzeentch) is a jerk or anything like that, so Cult Troops aren't necessarily against the worship of Chaos Ascendant.

 

And then, in a somewhat weird turn of events, the new Chaos Codex states that "they each venerate one of the Chaotic pantheon with manic fervour". It certainly seems like a turnaround from earlier fluff, but it's there in print all the same.

[darth_giles]

If you read the Word Bearers seies, you do nocie that Wb CAN and DO have marked units, they just aren't that common. A good example is Khalaxis and his squad, which do tend to Khorne worship. I took this to mean they would be Khorne Marked, though not berserkers.

I've already had one argument with A-D-B about whether or not the Black Library novels are canon or not. Finding they had been promoted from "loosely canon" to "full canon" in the 4th and 5th Edition years was really jarring.

 

That having been said, the 4th Edition codex killed the MoCU and from what I've seen the current one doesn't have it either, making a "correct" Word Bearers army something of an impossibility along with a "correct" Night Lords and Iron Warriors army. So I'd argue that taking a CSM army with allied Daemons is the closest you can get and as long as you emphasize sorcery and daemons instead of cult troops and wonky stuff.

 

Course that also opens up a lot of fun modelling opportunities. For example, joining a WFB dragon or a plastic dinosaur with the Helldrake kit for something that's mechanically the same but looks more like a Soul Grinder.

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, I don't think the term "canon" is applicable to 40k. It implies that there always be a source that never contradicts itself. Most would think GW would be that source. Problem is, GW has contradicted itself, Forgeworld contradicts GW and BL, but not itself, and since BL has started talking to the IP department, it has stopped contradicting itself but still contradicts some of GW's older fluff. So to be honest, "canon" is dead in my book and all of it is "fluff."

 

The question is, what is a "correct" Word Bearers army? The one where every Host is different from its organization to its practices and traditions to its battle strategies depending on the whims of its Dark Apostle? Or is it the uniform "No one is blessed by the Gods and no one can raise anything in their names but somehow they are supposed to still worship them and be known as zealous fanatics"?

 

What is a "correct" Night Lords army? Mark and Icons of Undivided on a Legion that originally was supposed to be as athiest as it gets in a universe where gods are real, evil and looking to virtually destroy the material realm and remake it in their image? Or is it the "Raptor Legion" that came from the average Night Lords player spamming Raptors when the Raptors own fluff stated that they were separate and independent from the Legions? Or is it Zso Sahaal who made them the Raptor Legion when only his Company were the Raptors and his Company is actually only a part of the First Company and not even its entirety?

 

Just what is a "correct" army? Is it just a viewpoint? And if so, whose viewpoint is it? Is it another player? Does that player have the right to say that his viewpoint, his opinion, is right and another's isn't correct, or to put bluntly wrong, just because it is different?

[TheDarkApostle]

Or the really old stuff where Night Lords were dedicated to Khorne and Iron Warriors worshiped Slaanesh?

 

TDA

[Kol Saresk]

The Iron Warriors were Slaanesh? Well color me tickled. I didn't know much of the older fluff other than NL were Khorne and AL were Tzeentch. I always figured the IW would be Nurgle.

[RolandTHTG]

There are some Nurgle Iron Warriors in one of the early Gaunts Ghosts novels.

[Kol Saresk]

That was part of motivation for that. Oh well, 2nd ed is dead and gone I'm afraid.

[darth_giles]

The question is, what is a "correct" Word Bearers army? The one where every Host is different from its organization to its practices and traditions to its battle strategies depending on the whims of its Dark Apostle? Or is it the uniform "No one is blessed by the Gods and no one can raise anything in their names but somehow they are supposed to still worship them and be known as zealous fanatics"?

For me at least, "correct" is how they were in the 3.5 codex era, although I still prefer the Index Astartes color scheme over the one from the later codices. A fair number of MoCU troops marching under icons, and lots of daemons.

 

Praise the Gods for allied contingents.

[darth_giles]

The question is, what is a "correct" Word Bearers army? The one where every Host is different from its organization to its practices and traditions to its battle strategies depending on the whims of its Dark Apostle? Or is it the uniform "No one is blessed by the Gods and no one can raise anything in their names but somehow they are supposed to still worship them and be known as zealous fanatics"?

For me at least, "correct" is how they were in the 3.5 codex era, although I still prefer the Index Astartes color scheme over the one from the later codices. A fair number of MoCU troops marching under icons, and lots of daemons.

 

Praise the Gods for allied contingents.

[Artein]

For me at least, "correct" is how they were in the 3.5 codex era

Why 3.5? Why not 2? Or 3? Or 4? Or 5? Or 6? I really don't get this '3.5 was Jesus, everything else is good for nothing'

[darth_giles]

For me at least, "correct" is how they were in the 3.5 codex era

Why 3.5? Why not 2? Or 3? Or 4? Or 5? Or 6? I really don't get this '3.5 was Jesus, everything else is good for nothing'

Because the Index Astartes article and 3.5 codex were the first fluff I found on the Word Bearers. The cult legions had some attention floating around the internet from the 2nd Edition codex, and all *but* the Word Bearers got even a small mention in the 3.0 codex. The Realm of Chaos books were so badly out of print at the time as to be unavailable.

[Excessus]

They had parts in the 2nd ed codex, as much as anyone else...

[Kol Saresk]

They had parts in the 2nd ed codex, as much as anyone else...

Yes but I'm sure that the IA articles and 3.5 with its two paragraphs a Legion did a much better job of fleshing them out. That's why we have the Raptor Legion and the Daemon Bombers. :)

[darth_giles]

Yes but I'm sure that the IA articles and 3.5 with its two paragraphs a Legion did a much better job of fleshing them out. That's why we have the Raptor Legion and the Daemon Bombers. :lol:

Daemonbombing was an exploit of the early Turbo Boost rules, pure and simple.

 

As for the Raptor Legion, need I mention the Iron Ordinance Battery? That was IMO more imbalanced than daemonbombing since only one IW tank actually needed LOS to drop a pie plate.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes but I'm sure that the IA articles and 3.5 with its two paragraphs a Legion did a much better job of fleshing them out. That's why we have the Raptor Legion and the Daemon Bombers. :lol:

Daemonbombing was an exploit of the early Turbo Boost rules, pure and simple.

 

As for the Raptor Legion, need I mention the Iron Ordinance Battery? That was IMO more imbalanced than daemonbombing since only one IW tank actually needed LOS to drop a pie plate.

I wasn't there for all of them. But the two I mentioned are the least imbalanced, then that actually confirms my overall opinion of 3.5 as an observer.

[darth_giles]

I wasn't there for all of them. But the two I mentioned are the least imbalanced, then that actually confirms my overall opinion of 3.5 as an observer.

Yeah, the 3.5 codex had some extremes. You could go the other way, though. Nobody I know of fielded sonic tanks in an EC list, for example, because they were obvious downgrades. Death Guard had it a little rough, too, because they were limited to only a certain number of mounted squads as Troops, and any after that number took FA slots.

 

What happened with Daemonbombing was that a lot of people saw vehicle lists such as the IW gunline (and a couple of other lists such as mounted World Eaters) as being no longer viable thanks to the 4th edition nerfs to vehicles and the Escalation rule. My answer was to field a melta-heavy full infiltration list, which unfortunately wasn't much good in Alpha-Level missions, but pretty good in Gamma and could potentially table a mounted army on turn one in Omega.

[PipX]

As an aside to this conversation, if you have the opportunity to do so, take a look through the Black Crusade core rulebook and side books. It gives some excellent examples where certain actions/skills taken can shift which Chaos God "notices" you. Some great material to use when getting an idea of how you want to theme your army.