Sanguinius

[Ushtarador]

Hey guys!

 

I'm gonna be playing at a big apo-game next spring, and I don't want to wait another year or more until FW releases rules for our beloved Primarch. Since the first few primarchs are already out, I guessed we could take them as a guideline to make our own "balanced" rules for Sanguinius (it's apo, so balanced is the wrong word, but you know what I mean ;)). I love doing stuff like this and I believe I'm not the only one around here, and I would be very glad if you could help me to find a fluffy and unique set of abilities.

 

I will post some initial ideas I had, also inspired by the other thread that floated around here recently. Remember, his rules should represent the general spirit of the blood angels, and he should not just be a combat monster, that's Angrons place ;)

 

UPDATED

UPDATED - added special Infernus Pistol, weapons are now mastercrafted

UPDATED - invsave lowered, new ability added, FnP added

UPDATED - removed spear, removed an attack, added charge bonuses for sword. Leader of the Host triggers now only when sanguinius charges. He can now charge when DSing

 

 

Profile:

 

WS: 8

BS: 5

S: 6

T: 6

W: 5

I: 8

A: 5

LD:10

SV: 2+

 

He was said to be one of the only people who could beat horus in a duel, so that was my guideline. He's got the same WS than horus and I really feel that a primarch with wings should have an excellent initiative, but strength, wounds and attack are lower.

 

 

Wargear:

 

Sword of Sanguinius: This is a mastercrafted AP2 power weapon and adds +1S and +1A on the turn Sanguinius charges.

Fire of the Heavens: A mastercrafted infernus pistol with 12'' range, it is a masterpiece of unmatched craftsmanship.

Refractor Field: Gives him a 5+ invulnerable save.

 

 

Special Rules:

 

- Primarch (EW,Fear, yaddayadda...)

 

Angelic Wings: The Primarch's innate ability to fly makes him highly mobile on the battlefield. He can move as Jump Infantry and may use the JP during the movement and assault phase at all times. This bonus extends to the squad he is attached to if it is equipped with jump packs. He does not take dangerous terrain tests for departing or landing in terrain using his JP. Sanguinius also has the special ability Hit and Run and may reroll failed Hit and Run tests.

 

Prophetic Gift: Sanguinius had the legendary gift of being able to glimpse the future and thus alter the path of history. If he is on the battlefield, the Blood Angels player may reroll one single die each game turn. He also gains Feel no pain (5+).

 

Strategic Genius: Sanguinius himself and all Blood Angel units that deepstrike within 12'' of Sanguinius by using their jump packs will not scatter and can charge on the turn they arrive. You may reroll all reserve rolls.

 

Leader of the Host: Sanguinius' presence inspires his sons and drives them to even more ferocious charges, while they ignore even the most grievous of wounds so as not to sadden him by falling to the enemy. On a turn Sanguinius charges, all Blood Angels units within 12'' of Sanguinius gain Furious Charge and +1A on the charge. All Blood Angel units within 12'' of Sanguinius gain Feel no Pain (5+).

 

 

 

 

 

Tally rule not included for the moment

- I found the idea of an inverted epidemius-rule very intriguing, and it would make him unique among the other primarchs. Basically, he will gain or lose attributes and stats according to the number of blood angel models falling in battle. The more of his sons die, the more he will lose control and tactical cleverness, and become a close-combat monster instead. Since this is apocalypse, I would base it on the number of models you field instead of a fixed value chart. All values are additive.

 

10%: Sanguinius gains +1A and +1S as he focusses on the enemy hurting his sons.

25%: Sanguinius gains Fleet and Preferred Enemy (everyone), he wants to see the other guys bleed!

50%: Sanguinius gains +1A, +1S and -1WS, as the overwhelming fury makes him lose his finesse in combat and replaces it with raw power.

75%: Sanguinius loses all strategic special rules as the black rage consumes him. He gains -1WS (and maybe -1T) and a 3+ armor save, as he lets all defenses drop. However, his attack value his set to 10, he gains FnP(5+) and may reroll all To Hit and To Wound rolls in close combat. He always has to charge the nearest enemy in sight.

 

The idea is that he should get stronger and wilder in close combat, but also easier to kill, especially once you reach the 75% mark. He should destroy anything he touches in CC, but your opponent should also be able to drop him quickly once he loses control like this. I have to think a bit more about the numbers I've given in this table, maybe he grows too strong before he grows weaker, but I think the idea is clear.

 

Anyway, those are only my first suggestions, I'm sure I'll come up with more, give me your thoughts and add your ideas, but try to keep it in fluff and balanced :(

 

Here's a picture of the model I will use as Sanguinius:

 

http://s1.directupload.net/images/121204/paj9ylke.png

[Morticon]

I think WS on a par with Horus - just because he could beat him doesnt necessarily mean its WS alone- can be as you said initiative/attacks etc.

 

Id have him (quite similarly) at:

 

WS: 8

BS: 5

S: 6

T: 6

W: 5

I: 8

A: 5/6

LD: 10

Sv: 2+

 

Id make his special abilities the ones that stand out. His foresight was legendary and that needs to play a role in things. Rerolls of some kind per phase, or per turn etc.

 

Whats the rational for him going cray-cray when the BAs fall?

Also, look to some special rules regarding his type of flight, his armour and his weapons.

[Ushtarador]

Whats the rational for him going cray-cray when the BAs fall?

 

I heard people talking about he got angry in battle when he saw his legion fall and it fits into the whole red thirst/black rage theme. But I'm not that much of a lore-lawyer, so maybe I understood that wrong and it didn't affect himself that much :) It's also kinda the opposite of the old "I get more awesome when I kill more people". I gave him an additional WS but took away an attack to represent his deadly grace, but it might be a bit too much thats true.

 

Gotta do some work now, but I'll be back ^^

[Xenith]

Give your opponent the tally or Nurgle, that has it's effects on Sangy alone.

 

Then more BA he kills, the angrier Sang gets.

[Black_Sky]

And when he is the only ba left, he will yell: SANGUINIUS SMASH! Fly off the table, and break your opponents back.

[John Rainbow]

Sanguinius should be able to Fly.

 

Instead of the melta pistol couldn't you give him the Spear of Telesto? It was his weapon right? IIRC it has some sort of flame template style attacks that destroys anyone without the Blood Angels geneseed. Maybe make it a redeemer style flamer? The spear could then also give him additional strength on the charge or something.

[Jolemai]

Very Bulky

Artificier Armour and Iron Halo (From most artwork)

Master Crafted Power Lance (or give the Spear some decent special rules)

Master Crafted Power Sword (special rules)

Corbulo-like ability, but improved upon

Hit and Run

Red Thirst (See Tycho)

[Ushtarador]

Good good, keep it coming^^ I'm not sure if Sanguinius should be able to fly, it might be too strong. JP-movement and the ability to DS already gives him a lot more maneuverability than most other primarchs. I'll keep it in mind tough.

 

Hit and Run is a very nice suggestion, since he got wings that fits him perfectly.

 

I feel that Sanguinius should fight with a sword so that makes the additional spear kinda awkward, especially from a modelling perspective. But I can give him a spear instead of the sword with some flamer-template ability if it is general consensus that it is in the lore :)

 

How would you model the corbulo-like ability? A single reroll for himself every turn, or a single reroll in general each turn? It sounds like a cool idea though.

 

Also please more suggestions for army-wide special rules please, I would like Sanguinius to be even more of a supportive and strategic asset. What do you think of the charge-when-ds ability?

 

I might also scrap the tally-like special rule if it is not consistent with the lore, anyone who can tell me more about that?

 

edit:/ Here's a link to the miniature I would like to play as Sanguinius. People from our LGS ordered some stuff from there and although he's a little too bulky for my taste, he looks pretty cool. http://hitechminiatures.com/2/product/info/69

[Jolemai]

Thing is, it is lore supported that his wings could bore him aloft. Who is to say that when we eventually read about his (various) fights with the named Bloodthirster/Daemon didn't involve some cinematic fight in the sky? FMC is probably too powerful though. Perhaps go with the rules for Swooping Hawks?

 

EDIT: Another thing to take into account is the Wings of Sanguinius spell, so it shouldn't be more powerful than that.

 

The Corbulo-like ability could be once per game turn or perhaps 2/3 re-rolls per game. Or maybe, a Psychic power in a similar vein to the Eldar ones? (although only Mastery Level 1 and he can't exchange this spell).

[TheHarrower]

I'd give him 1 reroll per game turn and let him freely choose what to use it on. If he is on the field at the start of the turn, I'd also let it count for reserves.

 

Regarding weapons, I'd go with the Spear of Telesto. For rules, make it a heavy flamer that can be placed up to 12" away (like the Grey Knights Heavy Incinerator). Unlike conventional template weapons, I'd allow it to be placed over any model in the Blood Angels Codex and fired into close combat. Fluff says it can't hurt anyone with the Blood Angels geneseed and that's kinda cool. It'd make it AP2 as a melee weapon and give a bonus to Strength (+2?) on the charge.

 

As for the wings, I think FMC is too much. Just always give him both benefits for Jump Packs at all times.

[Ushtarador]

Updated that stuff a bit. Being able to use the JP both for moving and assault is an excellent idea and represents the superiority of wings over jump packs very well. The Flamer not being able to hurt Blood Angels is a nice idea as well, I put it in.

Reroll also added, I like it.

 

Now more ideas on how he inspires Blood Angels on the battlefield? Or maybe another rule to represent his tactical genius, then I think we're done.

[TheHarrower]

Tally is definitely a cool mechanic, but it isn't backed up much by fluff. At least what I read. For tactical genius, maybe just always allow rerolls for reserves for every unit (even those not wearing jump packs). It isn't a crazy buff since Descent of Angels already does that, but it does allow some control over other units to coming in if the Blood Angels player wants to. He does need some sort of command presence buff. What about providing Preferred Enemy (All) to any unit within 12"? I'd probably mastercraft the Plasma Pistol and the Spear. That's pretty standard with the Primarchs, isn't it? Lastly, as THE Blood Angel, shouldn't he have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain?

[Ushtarador]

Yes, the "reroll all reserves" is already included in his Prophetic Gift now.

 

I would prefer to give him an IP though, plasma pistols are so mainstream ;P The spear already gives him +2S on the charge, so I'm not sure about FC. Also, FnP might make him too hard to kill when compared to the other primarchs. What would you think about lowering his inv.save to 5+ but giving him FnP? It's somewhere between a 3+ and 4+ inv save then, that might be ok.

 

Preferred enemy for everyone near him is an option. Might there be anything in the fluff to back it up? Or maybe the same buffs as a sanguinary priest but with a 12'' radius, but enhanced? Maybe giving everyone +1A on the charge as well as FC and FnP.

[Sinful eyes]

As the one and only primarch with WINGS, it seems to me as though Sanguinius should be allowed to move as a flying monstrous creature. Also give him vector strike. I mean, he does fight bloodthirster daemons in midair (whilst flying!). A simple jump pack does not do him justice IMO. I also highly suspect that forgeworld will give him this ability (it just makes so much sense from a fluff perspective).

 

As for the tactical genius part; how about seizing the initiative on a 4 (or even 3)+? Or maybe we could take a page from Creed's book and let Sanguinius infiltrate some units? ^_^

[SnorriSnorrison]

For the love of our Primarch, I'd not give him a spear. Since it's the most recent work about Sanguinius, I'd go with the equipment described in 'Fear to Tread', that means Infernus Pistol and the brother of Horus' sword (can't recall if either of the blades was given a name).

 

Infernus Pistol should be mastercrafted, and maybe have improved range. It's Pre-Heresy, after all so it's possible that certain technologies which are now lost were used in creation of the pistol.

 

The Sword needs AP2, and maybe +1 Strength. The spear, while probably looking cool, sounds like a product of fan-fiction and isn't mentioned in any codex as well as in the only book from James Swallow I'm considering canon. :)

 

Flying Monstrous Creature sounds appropriate. He wasn't just jumping from enemy to enemy, he was flying over the battlefield, descending with furious anger and righteous wrath upon the enemies of mankind!

 

The other stuff sounds cool, though.

 

 

 

 

Snorri

[SamaNagol]

He should really *count as* a Flying Monstrous Creature. It would be most fitting. Vector Strikes, Smash attacks. Etc Etc

[Ushtarador]

I'm not sure about the FMC-stuff because I would like to keep his powerlevel in line with the other primarchs. If he could move as a FMC that would give him a stupid amount of mobility compared to anyone else. Also, since its apocalypse, the moment you take him out of his protective squad and fly somewhere you are probably dead ;)

Fluffwise, he has wings but he is by no means as big as a blood thirster or swarmtyrant, so I don't think we should grant him the same rules. He is already damn quick with his JP usable in both phases, and with S8 on the charge and Hit&Run he can still wipe stuff and then bounce out and kill something else next turn :rolleyes:

 

I already included the 12''-mastercrafted pistol, it's an awesome idead :)

 

I must admit that I have grown fonder of the spear as a weapon, it is quite unique and a fitting weapon for an angel who always charges around. But I also thought he was mostly depicted with a sword before this new book, so we may revert that. I would however grant him more attacks on the charge and give him Furious Charge instead, swords don't add strengh in my book ;)

 

edited some stuff above as well. I think he is almost done now, except for the weapon debate. I will remove the tally as it is not backed up by fluff.

 

ALSO: Purely from a balance perspective, should Sanguinius himself be able to charge when arriving out of reserves?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Fluffwise, he has wings but he is by no means as big as a blood thirster or swarmtyrant, so I don't think we should grant him the same rules. He is already damn quick with his JP usable in both phases, and with S8 on the charge and Hit&Run he can still wipe stuff and then bounce out and kill something else next turn ;)

It's not like he's getting an additional die against vehicles in close combat, this is solely about his ability to fly. Since we have many sources that tell us he was indeed able to fly around, I'd think there needs to be some way to represent this in the rules. I like the approach of yours, a counts-as JP usable in both phases is a nice step. However, the vector strike option is also very tempting, as well as the other benefits of FMC regarding shooting, etc.

 

I think in Fear to Tread Sanguinius was depicted as being able to fly very fast, able to manouvre in mid-air and stuff. So there's a justification for a counts-as FMC.

 

I already included the 12''-mastercrafted pistol, it's an awesome idead ;)

Yup, overlooked it in the original post, I admit. :rolleyes:

 

I must admit that I have grown fonder of the spear as a weapon, it is quite unique and a fitting weapon for an angel who always charges around. But I also thought he was mostly depicted with a sword before this new book, so we may revert that. I would however grant him more attacks on the charge and give him Furious Charge instead, swords don't add strengh in my book :P

 

Well, if you think about that the spear of telesto was introduced in Deus Encarmine, you might want to reconsider it as a weapon for Sanguinius. :)

More attacks sound fine, however we should not forget that His sword was the brother-blade of Horus' sword. I'm sure a small strength bonus in combination with Furious Charge to get that S8 on the charge is fine. :)

 

S7 in an ongoing combat, and S8 on the charge as well as a single S6 Hammer of Wrath attack. Sounds fine in my book.

 

 

edited some stuff above as well. I think he is almost done now, except for the weapon debate. I will remove the tally as it is not backed up by fluff.

Well, I believe it is backed up. In our current codex, when The Blood was attacked by mutants, it states that Sanguinius got really angry - and by really angry, I mean that he got really angry.

Also, in Fear to Tread, he suffers every time one of his Sons fell in battle and that boosted his fury to a new level. When Ka'Bhanda

used foul magic to kill a great amount of Blood Angels in an instant, Sanguinius went unconscious because of the psychic scream of their deaths - quoted quite freely

.

So there should be a way to represent this, but going with percentages is probably not the easiest approach while playing the game. ;)

 

ALSO: Purely from a balance perspective, should Sanguinius himself be able to charge when arriving out of reserves?

Mh, hard to say. Primarchs should be able to do a lot of things lesser men can't. You'd need to test-play the hell out of this and look whether it's overpowered or not. Until then, I'd say go for it. ;)

 

 

 

Snorri

[Ushtarador]

I might also just put it in and then convince my fellow players to allow it :P it's apocalypse after all! The percentage approach to the tally is also because of apocalypse, you can't really balance that on exact numbers - and if you go through the pains of actually playing an apogame, it shouldn't be that much of an effort to keep track of it :D I guess it depends on the reaction of my fellow gamers wether or not I leave it in.

 

I'll take out the spear then (my model has a sword anyway after all :P) and think a bit about the sword and its special characteristics.

 

I'll also think a bit more about the flying stuff and how it might affect game balance, that's my main reason not to give him FMC-rules. Maybe something will occur to me ^^

[TheHarrower]

I would prefer to give him an IP though....

 

I agree. I actually meant IP, my bad.

 

Snorri is right about the spear. I went back and I looked at Fear to Tread because for the life of me I couldn't remember him using it. The rules we came up with are cool, but it just doesn't fit. I think sword and IP are the way to go and I don't think there is anything wrong with giving the sword a Strength bonus. Look at the Glaive Encarmine.

 

Well, I believe it is backed up. In our current codex, when The Blood was attacked by mutants, it states that Sanguinius got really angry - and by really angry, I mean that he got really angry.

 

To a degree, and I'm no steward of 40K fluff, but what other Primarch wouldn't be pissed if his sons were getting slaughtered? I read Fear to Tread, but is what's in there enough to justify a rule? If so, to make this simple we can give him tiered abilities everytime an infantry unit is killed. Kinda like tokens for Dark Eldar:

 

1 Hatred

2 Furious Charge

3 or more Feel No Pain

 

This way we are lessesning his power level compared to other Primarchs and effectively only making him stronger as the Blood Angels are losing. Plus, we can keep the 4+ on the Iron Halo which I think is a necessity.

 

Still not sure on the whole FMC thing. I can see increasing his movement to 18" or 24" and adding vector strike. If we'd go that route, I'd probably remove the jump pack bonuses, but I still think full blown FMC is too much.

[Ushtarador]

I removed the spear and gave him back his sword, it adds +1S and +1A on the charge, I removed an attack from his profile to compensate. I really start liking the idea of a Sanguinius that is strong on the charge and then falls off in the second round of combat, and hit&run keeps him charging half the time. I might give him the ability to reroll his hit&run to keep it consistent, since it is becoming quite crucial that he gets the charge off.

 

About the fnp/invsave, you gotta remember that 5+inv/5+fnp is actually better and more consistent than a simple 4+inv. But I could give him FC and then Hatred depending on the number of BA units killed, that sounds balanced and he doesn't grow as much out of control as in the initial table.

 

I put more thought into the JP/FMC issue, and I would like to keep him like he is at the moment and see how he fares. I will extend the JP bonus to his attached squad though, I don't see him running around on his own all the time.

[Black_Sky]

Iron halo: 4+

 

Refractor Field: 5+

 

Rename the wargear in your profile to match imperial standards :P

[Ushtarador]

updated that, thanks blacksky :o

 

I decided to throw out the tally for now and see how it goes, if anyone plays an apo soon and wants to try out those rules, please tell us how it went and what could be done better! Now I just need to finish painting my model, it's looking quite awesome so far:)

[Jolemai]

Iron halo: 4+

 

Refractor Field: 5+

 

Rename the wargear in your profile to match imperial standards :)

 

Go the whole hog :P

 

Conversion Field: 4+

Displacer Field: 3+

Power Field: 2+

 

Sadly no longer used :(

[Arkangilos]

Sanguinius does feel his sons' death more so than the other primarchs, and it does make him go into a rage. Just like his death was felt more by his sons than any other legion when their primarch died (as evident with the Black Rage. It works both ways).