Icon of Vengeance

[Validar]

Hey guys

 

As an aspiring Nightlord player I'm pondering on when to use the icon of vengeance and when to leave it at home?

 

I'm thinking that it should also be compared to the VotLW upgrade, giving us 3 steps of improving our morale:

 

Naked - cheapest

VotLW - slightly more, around 10 points on most squads?

Icon - expensive, but ensures no one runs away. There is the risk of the banner dying to wound allocation, precise shots or the like and you do lose the ability to go to ground....

 

What do you guys think? I'm building a large CSM squad of ~13 models or so, and I think I'm going with icon for them. My 10man raptor squad leaves me a bit in doubt, though...

 

Your thoughts?

[the jeske]

stuff that dies and stops working and has a high cost like an icon aint worth it. better by ~2 csm and if you want FnP build an army with PMs.

[Minsc]

I see no point in the Icon of Vengeance: It's way to expensive for what it does.

 

Fearless has drawbacks, yet it's priced like it's the biggest buff to a unit ever.

Should it cost something? Yes, certainly. Should it cost as much as giving a unit FnP? Heck no...

[Lepaca]

stuff that dies and stops working and has a high cost like an icon aint worth it. better by ~2 csm and if you want FnP build an army with PMs.

 

So you oppose the use of icons in general? What about units like MoS bikes?

[Validar]

FnP only works with mark of slaanesh, so you have yourself a massive investment if you wanna go down that road. I'm not going for any marks at all, for fluff reasons, but feel free to debate it that way.

 

And for fearless having drawbacks: You can't go to ground. But you're a freaking space marine. The off-chance that you want to go to ground is much less common than the chance that you'll run away (which can devastate a unit completely!)

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Thus far, I've relied mostly on VotLW for my leadership buffs due to cost and the fact an Icon bearer can be sniped. The one place I'v taken an Icon of Vengeance thus far is on my Havocs. They tend to get parked on objectives in my backfield (Big Guns Never Tire) and/or closer to my back table edge. Since they have heavy weapons, I don't want them to move and they have a bigger chance of running off the table if they break, so I tend to give them fearless. I also sometimes give them Mark of Nurgle to make it that much harder to kill them, but that makes them a very expensive unit.

 

Edit: Clarification of Big Guns

 

FnP only works with mark of slaanesh, so you have yourself a massive investment if you wanna go down that road. I'm not going for any marks at all, for fluff reasons, but feel free to debate it that way.

 

And for fearless having drawbacks: You can't go to ground. But you're a freaking space marine. The off-chance that you want to go to ground is much less common than the chance that you'll run away (which can devastate a unit completely!)

[minigun762]

For CSMs, I would consider IoV with 2 scenarios

1) CSM squad decked out for close combat.

2) Squads larger than 10 units.

[Skullheart]

There are some good benefits from beeing Fearless in some situations but in general its to expensive.

+ can't get sweeping advanced

+ can't be pinned

+ will never fall back

+ ignore fear

 

- can't go to ground

- can't fall back from the "our weapons are useless" rule

 

but the two biggest drawbacks come with the icon itself.

- very expensive

- icons can be sniped

 

I agree with minigun that a big cc unit will probably get the biggest benefit from the IoV. But I can imagine that the Lord will join this unit anyway.

[Validar]

but how large exactly does the unit have to be? What about expensive CC units like terminators? You do NOT want them to fall back, you would never want them to go to ground and if you're in a "our weapons are useless" situation, you've prolly already screwed up :lol:

[minigun762]

but how large exactly does the unit have to be? What about expensive CC units like terminators? You do NOT want them to fall back, you would never want them to go to ground and if you're in a "our weapons are useless" situation, you've prolly already screwed up :P

 

As Skullheart pointed out, for the most part if you have an expensive CC unit, you're also going to be running a fearless HQ unit in there so the point is moot.

 

On the offhand chance you're running a big CC unit without one or you're using a non-fearless HQ like the Sorcerer, I would think about using it when IoV is equal to 10-15% of the squad's entire cost. That is a VERY rough starting point, but it gives you an idea. For example with terminators, this probably means a squad of 7-8 with marks, combi weapons and a few fists.

[zyl-]

Honestly, in the event of a mele deathstar, you should NOT need to make too many morale checks. If you aren't winning the combat with your crazy expensive unit something went wrong, and if you are getting shot all the time then something is going wrong yet again. On grounds of that logic, I would say no to the icon and use votlw.