Mixing Geneseed? possible cure

[spafe]

Greetings all,

 

While thinking about how lamentors may have beaten the curse, and wondering about differences between ba dex and csm dex, a thought came to me. Could a chapter be created using half ultra genseed (only due to it being still very pure) and half blood angels? Could then in this way experiment to stop the curse that afflicts sons of the red angel while still staying within his gene lineage?

 

further to this, without official sanction could it be plausible for a successor chapter to raid gene stores and steal some ultra geneseed for their own experiemnts (therefore none of the imperium would have to know about their secret). This may lead to the chapter being declared renegade but still fighting for him on earth. I'm guessing they could also be secretly resupplied by ba/other successors too if they knew what they were working on?

 

Any of this sound plausible or have I missed some key lore on why this wouldnt happen?

 

Any feedback or crit on the idea?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Greetings all,

 

While thinking about how lamentors may have beaten the curse, and wondering about differences between ba dex and csm dex, a thought came to me. Could a chapter be created using half ultra genseed (only due to it being still very pure) and half blood angels? Could then in this way experiment to stop the curse that afflicts sons of the red angel while still staying within his gene lineage?

 

The Lamenters haven't actually beaten the curse, they traded the Red Thirst for a seemingly distracting aura of sadness as well as their tough luck. That's what the Lexicanum says, anyways.

The problem with mixing the geneseed is that it's not sure what comes out in the end. The Lamenters ended up being part of the Cursed Founding because some idiots dabbled with the God-Emperors work. Then, it's not the Ultramarines' geneseed that might be too weak - it's the Blood Angels' geneseed that's too strong, because as long as you carry the geneseed of Sanguinius the psychic memory of his death will be implemented into your mind, in which way that may be, nobody knows.

The Senate on Terra has given up mixing other geneseeds with the Blood Angels', once the Flaw was detected.

Regarding the lineage, the Lamenters never held contact with the Blood Angels, they seemingly disregarded the fact that they were created using the Angel's genes. It's possible that others won't be that limited in their view, though.

 

Also, the Red Angel is not Sanguinius. :lol:

 

further to this, without official sanction could it be plausible for a successor chapter to raid gene stores and steal some ultra geneseed for their own experiemnts (therefore none of the imperium would have to know about their secret). This may lead to the chapter being declared renegade but still fighting for him on earth. I'm guessing they could also be secretly resupplied by ba/other successors too if they knew what they were working on?

 

Any of this sound plausible or have I missed some key lore on why this wouldnt happen?

 

Any feedback or crit on the idea?

 

No, it's not that plausible. As far as I know, the geneseeds of all chapters are held on Terra, which is probably the best defended world in the entire Imperium. March in there, and you're going to have your heads set up on pikes in front of the imperial palace. ;)

Renegade but still loyal works fine, the Knights of Blood have been declared a renegade chapter, yet they are loyal to the Emperor and Sanguinius, it's the Admininstratum and the Inquisition they're struggling with. :huh:

 

The Blood Angels are seeking a cure for the curse, however I'm quite sure that they are not going to help a renegade chapter that's working on watering down their geneseed. The geneseed is something sacred, it's a part of Sanguinius himself, and is activated by his blood taken from the Sanguinary Priests. Changing it in any way, be it by mixing other geneseeds in or by causing some mutation, is Heresy in many eyes.

 

 

To summarise this:

The things you might have missed are that the Lamenters don't consider themselves Sons of Sanguinius, didn't find a reliable cure to the Flaw, and are, as far as my knowledge goes, extinct as a chapter, or at least down to one or two hundred marines.

Stealing geneseed, even the slightest attempt would cause the entire might of the Imperium to focus on that chapter, probably destroying it before any samples could even leave Terra. Then, diluting the purity of the Blood Angels' geneseed with other genes is not a reliable way of curing the Flaw. In a way, it's the same as if you'd spit on the heritage of Sanguinius himself. He never wanted his children to live with it, but he knew that they were strong enough to hold against the haunting memories - the Black Rage makes us strong, for we must fight it every single moment lest our lives descend into darkness.

 

 

 

Snorri

[fivepointedstar]

My thoughts are the Lamenters are blended from Sons, of Sanguinius and Fulgrim. As the black rage was the psychic backlash to all son of the the 9th legion. Where Fulgrim's blood line were to prideful, and all about self perfection. That it could lead to an ever advancing depression because they are contantly competing within themselves to do the best. With the two blood line mixed would cause the same fate of the Lamenters. Since they are stricten with the Black rage ( as all Sanguinius' sons deal with) and a "aura" of sadness, an self depression. ( This could be the psychic insult to sons of Fulgrim imbeded into his gene line) That's just my interpretation of the cursed founding.

[DominicJ]

gene seed is held on mars.

 

Its possible that the lamentors could grab a few dead (or alive) unharvested marines and play biology.

 

Probably not openly....

[Calnus]

The problem with any geneseed is that barring some kind of secret knowledge, no one has a clue what they're doing trying to maniuplate it any more. They know literally just enough to continue to grow the parts needed from what they have, conduct the rituals to make new marines, and send a little off in sealed containers to be stored/tested. Thats it. You probably couldn't even find anyone on Mars guarding the stuff and researching it who knows what a double-helix is, let alone its importance to genetic modification. You'll have a few that know if you use this tool and this chemical, you kill off some part or induce a certain mutation, but there is nothing we would recognize as the science of biology in the Imperium. Science in general is just gone as if it never existed. There's a reason they're called Techpriests rather than Technicians...

 

Also, geneseeed is the single most protcted asset of any Chapter, and the stocks on Mars are guarded at least as well as a Fortress Monastery. There had better be a damn good reason anyone is able to get in and steal some under the noses of an instutionally paranoid group of super soldiers.

[Emperors Immortals]

Lamenters find cure for Flaw, turns out to be Justin Beiber gene-seed.

 

Having the luck of Bad Luck Brian means that the Lamenters would be =I= fodder in under a month.

 

As for geneseed, the chapters only send a tithe so theres still plenty in the Monastary's, and Huron raided the gene seed of the Marines Errant.

 

And over the years there have been enough clues to show that some genius hands still roam the universe innovating and improving and sometimes escaping the =I=.

 

Its ironic that Fabulous Bill is the pre-eminant biologis in regard to Astartes and probably knows as much as a human can.

[daboarder]

Another note:

 

everyone else in the imperium NOT a blood angel or successor space marine doesn't really know about the flaw, they suspect but they don't have any proof. the Blood angels only send suspiciously squeaky clean geneseed to the admech in their tithe.

 

will post a source late today.

 

nb: people know they are damned and but a single step from damnation, but they don't know specifics.

[spafe]

Okay, so mostly a dead idea then, nevermind lol. As for getting geneseed, I know its stored and basically untouchable, but from tithe to there it must be on a ship, wasnt sure how possible it would have been to raid that.

 

On the Red angel thing, whoops, my bad :P

 

See having read the blood angel series by swallow (I know its not most loved, but still) (and I hope ive remembered it right as the one where fabius infiltrates Baal and creates mutation-y things), it seemed that there was a fair bit more experimentation with regards to geneseed and tackling the curse. Obvs this was wrong so hey ho.

 

Interesting take on the lamentors not recognising BA as their lineage, Where is this from? I know they didnt reply to the summons/havent been most active at checking their inbox, but had always read it as they might have tried, but were jsut so damm unlucky their responce didnt make it/ship was lost.

 

Thanks for the info though, greatly appreciated

[EzekyleVIII]

I had an idea for a diy chapter combining a few ideas from BA and iron hands. From what I gathered reading the IH battle novel high up iron hands have practically no flesh. So I assume removed gene seeds as by that point theyve long matured and been removed. What if, there were some angels or successors with such an affinity for the machine, could overcome the curse by removal of the flesh. Granted the flaw can take at any time, but essentially my thinking would be what remains is a chapter of no flaw elite pretty machine marines?

[SnorriSnorrison]

I had an idea for a diy chapter combining a few ideas from BA and iron hands. From what I gathered reading the IH battle novel high up iron hands have practically no flesh. So I assume removed gene seeds as by that point theyve long matured and been removed.

 

I think that goes against everything we know about the transformation of marines - sure, all the organs have matured and the genetic code is held in the geneseed, but a marine's geneseed is only ever removed after his death - even the Iron Hands still have theirs, which is also the reason for their burning hate on their own flesh, or as they call it, 'weakness'. I'm not sure if it's even possible for a Marine to live without the geneseed.

 

What if, there were some angels or successors with such an affinity for the machine, could overcome the curse by removal of the flesh. Granted the flaw can take at any time, but essentially my thinking would be what remains is a chapter of no flaw elite pretty machine marines?

 

Quite unconvincing, if you ask me. First of all, the Flaw is still in the geneseed, which is a constant part of a Marine until his death, as well as the Flaw is in the blood of the Marine, as the geneseed needs to be activated by the Angel's blood, now the blood of the Sanguinary Priests.

 

Then, the Blood Angels are not despised by their bodies like the Iron Hands - they value their looks quite highly, as seen by Brother Captain Tycho's downfall. I doubt that, even with an obsession for the machine, an entire chapter of a Blood Angel successor would go the way of chopping their bodies to bits and replace them with cybernetics.

 

After all, even the now-red Iron Hands could fall to the Flaw as it lies in their minds, not their limbs.

 

 

As for doing a diy-successor, go ahead. Your miniatures, your fluff.

 

 

 

Snorri

[EzekyleVIII]

I think ichabod kersh of excoriators fame is without his, but again I may have interpreted incorrectly. Id rather my fluff be as within the universe as possible so if it is disturbingly unlikely I'll alter the fluff. All input be welcome, everyday a new lesson

[DominicJ]

I think people are, confused.

 

Gene seed isnt really a "thing", its a word, like seed capital.

 

 

Space Marines are geneticaly modified humans.

 

This genetic modification is caused by implanting the progenitor gland into a human male.

The progenitor gland, also known as "gene seed", as in, "genetic", and "seed", something that grows.

 

The progenitor gland alters the base human genetically.

It cant be surgically removed, it would be like trying to surgically remove the genes for blue eyes. Cutting the eyes out is easy, but they would still have the genes for blue eyes.

 

If the Iron hand replace their limbs with robotics, their brain with a computer ect, they dont so much remove "geneseed" and remove biology, they are robots, not space marines.

 

 

I'm not sure if it's even possible for a Marine to live without the geneseed.

That is of course an interesting point, its always been the case that the glands can only be harvested after death (or that harvesting is fatal) but its never been clear why, they arent in overly sensitive areas.

 

First of all, the Flaw is still in the geneseed,

 

Again, yes, the aspirant is "infected" via the implantation of the progenitor gland, but the curse itself is "written" into the marine at that point.

If you injected a vial of HIV positive blood into someone, you cant at a later date surgically remove the blood, because other cells are infected.

[spafe]

Just a quick thing on removal of the proginator gland, I thought they can remove that early (one set after they become proper marine), and second set usually at death, but the crimson fists I thought were removing both sets early to help with regrowth of chapter? Might be wrong though

[DominicJ]

spafe

Fluff used to be, that when they were building a new chapter, they harvested at fifty years, fatally.

[Adorondak]

I'm pretty sure that I read in a WD article a few years ago that the progenoid glands are removed once they've reached maturity (IE. Absorbed enough genetic materially from the other implants to create the new gene seed). The first one in the chest is removed at 10 years, and the one in the neck is removed at 25 years. If that's still correct, then it stands to reason that a marine can survive without his progenoids quite easily.

 

A gene seed is a small cluster of cells that is implanted into the body and grows into one of the organs that makes a space marine a space marine, so there are actually 19 different types of gene seed.

 

But, this is all coming from a WD article I read years ago (And I seem to recall was collected into a book called Adeptus Astartes Vol. 1 a few years later with a couple of other articles) so I don't know how true this all holds now.

[Cleal Baros]

No, it's not that plausible. As far as I know, the geneseeds of all chapters are held on Terra, which is probably the best defended world in the entire Imperium. March in there, and you're going to have your heads set up on pikes in front of the imperial palace. ;)

Renegade but still loyal works fine, the Knights of Blood have been declared a renegade chapter, yet they are loyal to the Emperor and Sanguinius, it's the Admininstratum and the Inquisition they're struggling with. ;)

 

Geneseed production and storage is found on/in sites across the Imperium from Mechanicum bio-installations to chapter fortresses, the only thing you can be sure of is that any site where geneseed can be found will be very well protected. Quite a few BL novels use these sites and the presence of geneseed as plot crooks.

 

It's quite possible that a chapter could steal geneseed from one of these sites but it would almost certainly require open conflict, being excommunicated and declared heretics.

[Cleal Baros]

I think people are, confused.

 

Gene seed isnt really a "thing", its a word, like seed capital.

 

Geneseed is in fact always referred to as 'a thing', it can be stored, used and stolen and is throughout the 40k fluff both old and new.

 

Most recent and up to date example of this is on pg25 of the CSM Codex. - "The Red Corsairs withdrew with nearly all of the Chapter's gene-seed, dooming the Marines Errant to a slow demise."

 

Progenoids and therefore gene-seed can be harvested from living Astartes through a minor surgical procedure with the neck gland taking 5 years to mature and the chest 10. (Warhammer 40,000: Compendium)

[DominicJ]

Gene seed *is* the progenitor glands, but has a much broader implication.

[Adorondak]

From Index Astartes vol.1, page 5

 

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured. These glands represent a chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinetly under the right conditions.

 

 

So according to this book, there are 19 different organs implanted into the candidate. Following a specific order of implantation, because later organs need the presence of earlier organs in order to function properly. The progenoids are the second last implanted and are definetly not what makes a candidate a space marine.

 

The only thing it never mentions expicitly is wether or not removing the progenoids causes death.

[Cleal Baros]

The gene-seed contains the genetic information required to grow the new organs for a single marine and it's true that some are grown en virtro and implanted before the progenoids. The Prognoids collect genetic information, and when matured contain all that is needed to produce a new set of organs (i.e they contain the genetic blueprints required to create an Astartes, this blue print is the gene-seed).

 

Gene-seed makes a human an Astartes as it allows for the production of the organs required, the progenoids implanted into a marine have nothing to do with his become an Astartes but will (with luck) be responsible for the creation of two future space marines.

 

That is at least how I understand it.