Raven Angel Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I think it is pretty clear from First Heretic that neither the II or XI committed treason in the traditional since like Horus. That means that if they where ordered destroyed by the Wolves as implied in Outcast Dead then it had to be for one of the unpardonable crimes laid down by the Emperor's Law in judging humanity. Those crimes are excessive Mutation, Treating with Xenos, the use of Sorcery, the creation and employment of AI, or Genocide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3240931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIDM Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 I really don't like the matched legion idea. It never seems to fit perfectly and it feels way too simplistic an approach to what are fairly complex and multifaceted organizations. there are 20 legions there seems to be some sort of connection to them each having another that is their match there are 2 missing primarchs yea, there is nothing to see here, in no was are they holding back look how much they have sold the HH stuff, imagine a few years of milking that cow, then wait for it, the 2 lost legions are revealed with crusade era armor in finecast Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3240937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 there are 20 legions there seems to be some sort of connection to them each having another that is their match Well, not really, in that each Legion has similar traits compared to several other Legions. Do you link the Raven Guard to the Night Lords because they both use lots of Assault Marines? Wait, but the Blood Angels do that too... Then again, you can also link them to the Alpha Legion, because they're both stealthy, but again, so are the Night Lords. The Raven Guard are also humanitarian, which ties them to the Ultramarines, but also ties them to the Salamanders. So, which Legion is the Raven Guard linked with? Do we link the Night Lords to the Raven Guard for the above reasons, or to the Alpha Legion, or the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves (the fear tactics thing, which also links them to the Salamanders), or to the Iron Hands for their callousness? Which one? The Legions are too complex to ever hope to divide them into clear-cut pairs. This is because the Legions aren't stereotypes, but rather entities that draw on a wide range of themes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3240974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count the7 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Each legion started off the same. though some have developed tendancys toward a certain sort of warfare. they all still Maintain flexibility. They all can conduct every phase of war. If a raven guard expiditionary fleet found them selves having to conduct a seige to bring about a compiance. they wouldnt sit on there lightning claws and call for help from the Iron Warriors. The same as White Scars would get off there bikes and pull on some TDA to clear a space hulk rather than go crying to the Death Guard. (yes im making the assumpion that the Death guard uses loads of TDA) What i am saying is just beacuse they prefer a certain style of confict doesnt mean theydont have the ability or the assets to do other wise. If you want to reprisent the Lost legions on the go with the standard Crusade Army list, Paint them Grey and add Legion Numerals. to shoulders standards and banners. as long as they are in MKII or MKIII Armour they will look sweet. if any fluff does come out about them in the future it can allways be reflected in the addition of extra HQ choices and Elites. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 there are 20 legions there seems to be some sort of connection to them each having another that is their match Well, not really, in that each Legion has similar traits compared to several other Legions. Do you link the Raven Guard to the Night Lords because they both use lots of Assault Marines? Wait, but the Blood Angels do that too... Then again, you can also link them to the Alpha Legion, because they're both stealthy, but again, so are the Night Lords. The Raven Guard are also humanitarian, which ties them to the Ultramarines, but also ties them to the Salamanders. So, which Legion is the Raven Guard linked with? Do we link the Night Lords to the Raven Guard for the above reasons, or to the Alpha Legion, or the Blood Angels, or the Space Wolves (the fear tactics thing, which also links them to the Salamanders), or to the Iron Hands for their callousness? Which one? The Legions are too complex to ever hope to divide them into clear-cut pairs. This is because the Legions aren't stereotypes, but rather entities that draw on a wide range of themes. Of course you are right. There are many possible examples of comparison between each Legion, so no one can say which one is really true. But we can consider it like a "what-if", considering the question "if every Legion have an opposite double for checking each other and limit, which pairs will you make? We can find possible solutions but no one is really true because we don't know if the "double idea" is really in the mind of the Emperor. The sentence of "every brother has his equal" come from Lion El Johnson, and probably it's only a reliable guess. We can use this thread to give the possible best consensual and agreed comparison one vs one. I have another option in my mind as the old card game Magic: of the five color, each one has two opposite and two neutral, for example in the Magic game, White is enemy for Black and Red, neutral to Green and Blue.. Blue, the color of Sorcery, opposite of Green/Nature and Red/Destruction.. We can have a multi approach for the Legions in the same way, for example Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves and Death Guards (both Primarchs hated Magnus for his sorcery even before the Heresy)... Night Lords vs Dark Angels and Raven Guards... Ultramarines vs Word Bearers and Alpha Legion... World Eaters vs Blood Angels and Emperor Children... there is no a solution because is a "what if" scenario, but we can find a consensus toward one possible option. Other road to be taken is to write every sentence related to the two missing brothers, and make our guess on each one of them. But only one is true until now: their sins were very bad... more than the butcheries of the current (30K) Worlds Eaters, more Warp addicted than the Thousand Sons, more un-brother than the current Konrad Curze (he was on the brink of censure for his and his Legion actions) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Wiriting down the couples many I think misplaced the Ultramarines choosing "morale". Wouldn't their top quality be organizational/tactical/logistical skills ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 They where always compared to the Word Bearers, which is why the Word Bearers where so annoyed, I think it was down to size, but also the Ultramarines where secular and the Word Bearers were religious and it was the contrast that marked them out against each other, this comes up in the opening chapters of Know No Fear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Yes I remember but also Guilliman himself should have given something to his Legion. Know no fear shows clearly the speed at which they re-organize, they assets the situation after they realize the betrayal and fight back minimizing the Word Bearers success. This innate skill should be took into consideration, not to mention it's an Ultramarines' sergeant that first takes into consideration the combat between Astartes. To me tactical awareness or something like that should be their point and could be one of the missing links.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Emperor's Children were known for carefully planning wars and conflicts prior to it starting, this could be the "mirror" of the Ultramarines who fluidly adapt where as Emperor's Children rigidly plan, just an idea though, a pretty slim one though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 ... my guess for the two missing legions would also be a pariah gene. with he first heretic talking of a "broken heart" and "shame", I'd say they either chose to oppose the emperor (maybe having their loyalities elsewhere) or destroyed each other. or maybe it's nagash and sigmar :D I'm very deeply interested of this thread... A lot of possible fan fiction... Why Nagash, why Sigmar? Perhaps we can use a part of this scenario to develop a possible lost Primarch and keep at the same time the link with Warhammer fantasy... I started many years ago with Warhammer Fantasy and I choosed the "underdogs" of that period... a "shamed" race, blessed or cursed by the sorcery and the power of warpstones... a flaming meteor fell down from the sky carrying with it the power of the Warp... lower creatures dwelling in the dark grown and changed and gained intelligenge... the new creatures prospered and built a council to rule them... one night a towering horned giant went to them and said you are my sons and I will lead you... After many years, during the Blessed Crudade made by the Mighty Emperor, an explorator ship found a lost planet... unfortunately during the Long Night, the entire planet was conquered by a mutated breed of half men and half rats... the Emperor was very sad because he had found a Lost Son too late... He decided in sorrow to destroy his son and cleanse the planet from the mutant creatures and no one will ever speak about the XI Primarch Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 The GW store I used to go to once had it's own chapter called the Emperor's Hammers and it's Primarch was Sigmar :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Colossus Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 GW have long said that the Warhammer World is no longer part of the 40k universe. It was in its infancy, and hence it has similarities, such as Sigmar possibly being a crash landing Primarch. It could work, but I'm just not convinced by it. I prefer the notion of a pariah legion, or a Primarch that simply refused to participate in the Great Crusade, hence his censure. The latter would be seen as heresy, and the Emp won't want the Imperial Army getting wind of someone as important as a Primarch's disposition, so he'll remove them from the records. However, it's always struck me as weird that Space Marines are almost universally trusted by the populace of the Imperium until the heresy, yet two Primarchs and their legions have, in all likelihood, been proved untrustworthy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 They've since stated that Sigmar had an actual mother, and that numerous people witnessed his birth. As such, Sigmar cannot be a Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Unless his mother was the Emperor in disguise. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 GW have long said that the Warhammer World is no longer part of the 40k universe. It was in its infancy, and hence it has similarities, such as Sigmar possibly being a crash landing Primarch. It could work, but I'm just not convinced by it. I prefer the notion of a pariah legion, or a Primarch that simply refused to participate in the Great Crusade, hence his censure. The latter would be seen as heresy, and the Emp won't want the Imperial Army getting wind of someone as important as a Primarch's disposition, so he'll remove them from the records. However, it's always struck me as weird that Space Marines are almost universally trusted by the populace of the Imperium until the heresy, yet two Primarchs and their legions have, in all likelihood, been proved untrustworthy. I know about Warhammer as a separate world... mine was only a joke (to say that the Horned Rat of the Skaven was a Primarch and the Skaven race his mutated offspring... BTW it can explain why they are not in WH40K... they were wiped out by the Emperor) About the two missing Legion I think their Primarchs made different actions than the Horus Heresy's traitors. Otherwise it's very hard to think everyone were surprised by Horus treachery. If happened before, it would happen again in the future. I explained to myself this is true only if no one of the missing primarchs went traitors... so the warp-mutated xeno sorcerers is still the most believable option. For the "not accepting to take part in the Great Crusade" we need to ask to ourselves... why someone doesn't want to lead an army of loyal servants and gain eternal glory... he can accept the gift and use only for himself... But a possible option if the primarch was a mighty seer like the eldar. He saw in advance the final result of the Great Crusade and disagreed with his Father, the Emperor, to lead a conquering army. Guess, only guess. We need to wait for the next piece of knowledge written in a future book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 obviously one of them was a null-zone creating psycker who was dropped on a planet on the outer edges of human populated space when the primarchs were scattered. His psychic deathcry (as the tyranids swarmed over his "home"world)'s reverbrations prompted the emperor to go out and look for his sons. all that was found though was a dead world, covered in dessicated bodies of men and insectlike xenos. it's where the nidds got their shadow in the warp ability from. njer. oh, edit: the reason why his existence and his legions was "removed from history" is to allow the belief that primarchs are truly nigh-indestructable. knowledge of what happened to him would put too severe a dent in the will and faith of his armies. morale, y'know edit 2: the other one had already been taken over by daemons when the emperor found him, his entire world a mirror of one of the chaos god's realm. exterminatus, both from reality as history. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Not sure a sear would work since Sang has that one even if it isn't used (might be something to do with the missing Legions why he doesn't) as for a primarch not wanting to fight or rule its not gonna happen the big E programed it into them. A Pariah might be a good way to go since he would be mostly immune to most of the big E's powers and was the first to say no to him... Interesting thought what if they're not talked about not because of what they did but because of what the emperor did? The big E finds a son that he cant control and see's it as a danger or threat and wipes the legion out completely. but then we could all be getting it wrong and the reference to them being "lost to us forever" means they left or were sent away... could explain why some chapters are sent out of the galaxy in search of lost imperial worlds or lost SM legions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 but then we could all be getting it wrong and the reference to them being "lost to us forever" means they left or were sent away... could explain why some chapters are sent out of the galaxy in search of lost imperial worlds or lost SM legions If the Primarch died on the line of duty (as Ferrus Manus), his brothers remembered him and not forget. The removal of the names and every record of them is an act of punishment. If the lost primarch disapperared before the coming of the Emperor he was mourned and not put on a black list of sort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 All Primarchs where found and lead their legions at some stage. I doubt we'll ever know what happened to them, ADB has said as much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 And it's not just what ADB said either, it's the fact that even during the Great Crusade era, almost no one actually knows what happened to them. I mean, look at a couple of the theories thrown out there just by the books. A Word Bearer thinks that the 2nd and 11th Legions were dissolved and their numbers assimilated into the Ultramarines. A long Fang says the Wolves wiped them out(although his "confession" was in a very ambigious setting). I honestly think the only people who know what really happened to them, are the Primarchs and the Emperor. As such, it will most likely stay one of the few secrets 40k will take to its grave. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3241792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 I know why the two lost legions were expunged from Imperial records. It's called a plot hook, implemented by the game designers to give us something to talk about. That aside, I see that it was foolish of me to hope to have a reasonable discussion about legion crusade era tactics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3242261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The missing legions used to be a hole in the old fluff to give a window to stimulate the players to create their own legions/chapters. They remained in the fluff, but they weren't supposed to be explained, never, and I don't think HH will change that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3242290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Dragon Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I read recently in the Betrayal book by forgeworld that the pressure of having to create so many marines before the primarchs were found was putting strain on the Legions geneseed and the process was becoming increasingly difficult. So now just imagine what would have happened if a Primarch's dna failed to rejuvenate this process as it did with the 18 extant legions... Or a Primarch died early on in the crusade... (Legions die out due to accumulated geneseed deficiencies). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3242468 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I see that it was foolish of me to hope to have a reasonable discussion about legion crusade era tactics. Sorry :/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3242478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I know why the two lost legions were expunged from Imperial records. It's called a plot hook, implemented by the game designers to give us something to talk about. That aside, I see that it was foolish of me to hope to have a reasonable discussion about legion crusade era tactics. Sincerely I don't comprehend which is your point. I have read the others opinions and I agree on one premise: without knowing the primarchs essences what they like and what they dislike, we cannot speak about the tactical disposition of their legions. We only have one info on this matter: their name and records were erased from the imperial archives and there is an edict of the Emperor to not speak about it. But even that it's completely useless. We cannot think for the Emperor to have engineered them to fail. We need to collect more sentences to have a clearer view about them. We need to wait for new books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/2/#findComment-3242506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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