Lord_Caerolion Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 but then we could all be getting it wrong and the reference to them being "lost to us forever" means they left or were sent away... could explain why some chapters are sent out of the galaxy in search of lost imperial worlds or lost SM legions And what Chapters would those be? I've never heard about them before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 You can speculate on their reasons for being expunged and thus try and incorporate them into a theoretical list that incorporates these aspects via the weaponry used etc, this is what I was speculating in my thread about whether any one has considered actually doing a lost legion army. However since we don't know and most likely won't ever know much about the lost legions anything that is done will be fan made. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 2 Points: I don't think II and XI were killed. We have established all the other Primarchs know about their existence (and have been banned from discussing them). In Butchers Nails, when Lorgar and Angron are discussing the Butchers Nails in Angrons Skull, Lorgar says he thinks taking them out could kill him, but he doesn't think a Primarch can die. Angron then reminds him that Fulgrim killed Ferrus, confirming that Primarchs can indeed be killed, which Lorgar still finds hard to accept. If II and XI had already been killed, Lorgar would have known that. (There are also numerous examples such as Horus where people doubt Primarchs can be killed) Also going back to the Legion match ups, I'd say Iron Hands and Salamanders were matched, both were artificers, but one saw humanity as a weakness, the other say weakness as worthy of protecting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Lorgar should also know that Ferrus has been killed and still think a Primarch can't die ? I think you read it wrong or Lorgar is messed up a little... What about Dorn and the Sigillite talk about twice, in two different book ? Legions have been already fought by other Legions. No one said anything about Primarchs but what Lorgar says there doesn't seem to make any sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 It is an Audio book caprera. Lorgar says something along the lines of "I do not know if they can even be removed. The trauma would be incredible, and I would say it would kill you, if you were not a Primarch" to which Angron says "Primarchs CAN die" Someone else will find the exact quote Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
caprera Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 It just says that such a trauma (whatever he's talking about) would surely kill a common human. Isn't it ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Nah I remember the discussion, it's in Butcher's nails, and when he says Primarchs can die I thought he was referring to Ferrus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantras Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 To clarify, Lorgar has to be reminded by Angron that it is possible for Primarchs to die/be killed, after Lorgar muses on whether the removal of the butchers nails from Angron would be lethal. He cites Ferrus Manus as the reason behind knowing they CAN die, meaning II and XI were neither killed or died by conventional means. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3242987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 To clarify, Lorgar has to be reminded by Angron that it is possible for Primarchs to die/be killed, after Lorgar muses on whether the removal of the butchers nails from Angron would be lethal. He cites Ferrus Manus as the reason behind knowing they CAN die, meaning II and XI were neither killed or died by conventional means. We don't know if the two missing primarchs were killed, but there are possible explanations for using only Ferrus Manus as a comparison 1. most recent event 2. he was killed by another Primarch (maybe not from the Emperor) with mundane means... eg. killed with a sword through decapitation The other maybe were killed with extraordinary powers (like the Emperor or a space fleet firing at the same time)... so the comparison could be: hey Lorgar, we can be killed more easily than you think... Only a different view on the matter, only a guess and maybe not really true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3243021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 I know why the two lost legions were expunged from Imperial records. It's called a plot hook, implemented by the game designers to give us something to talk about. That aside, I see that it was foolish of me to hope to have a reasonable discussion about legion crusade era tactics. Sincerely I don't comprehend which is your point. I have read the others opinions and I agree on one premise: without knowing the primarchs essences what they like and what they dislike, we cannot speak about the tactical disposition of their legions. We only have one info on this matter: their name and records were erased from the imperial archives and there is an edict of the Emperor to not speak about it. But even that it's completely useless. We cannot think for the Emperor to have engineered them to fail. We need to collect more sentences to have a clearer view about them. We need to wait for new books. Given the tactical dispositions of the 18 known legions what could have been possible roles for the 2nd and 11th to fill? I'm thinking of this question in more of tactical military standpoint. What other roles could there have been that would need to be filled by a primarch and a legion during the great crusade? The above is from my original post. There are two points. One :the known legions and their characteristics. And second: what are the possible roles for the lost legions to fill. The primarchs are not needed for that. The intention is not to imagine what the II and XI primarchs would be like and how they would teach their legions to make war. The point is to look at the known legions and find a need that could have been filled by the II and XI if there are any. Therefore all the primarch discussion is a waste. To put the question another way. What, if anything, was missing from the legions preferred tactics during the crusade? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3243165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TennisBall Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 They where always compared to the Word Bearers, which is why the Word Bearers where so annoyed, I think it was down to size, but also the Ultramarines where secular and the Word Bearers were religious and it was the contrast that marked them out against each other, this comes up in the opening chapters of Know No Fear. They both attempted to create perfect societies while the other primarchs were content to subdue or destroy and then move on. Also interesting is that both Guilliman and Lorgar wrote books that had a major influence on the Imperium after the heresy was ended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3243486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 He cites Ferrus Manus as the reason behind knowing they CAN die, meaning II and XI were neither killed or died by conventional means. He cites Ferrus as a reason. Nothing says it's the only reason. One thing being listed as an example doesn't mean that it's the only case ever of it, just that it's an example. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3243494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 They where always compared to the Word Bearers, which is why the Word Bearers where so annoyed, I think it was down to size, but also the Ultramarines where secular and the Word Bearers were religious and it was the contrast that marked them out against each other, this comes up in the opening chapters of Know No Fear. They both attempted to create perfect societies while the other primarchs were content to subdue or destroy and then move on. Also interesting is that both Guilliman and Lorgar wrote books that had a major influence on the Imperium after the heresy was ended. More important what happened after the Heresy for the similarities between the two primarchs. The Word Bearer differently from the other traitor forces when attacked an imperial planet they don't have the idea of raze to the ground, capture slaves or enlarge a collection of skulls. They want to create a different society. So they are "builders of civilizations" (of course with many differencies than the Ultramarines). The other Legion that create chaos cults, Alpha Legion, created them only as a weapon to create and spread confusion and unrest amongst the imperial defence. Of course leading a religious crusade in the name of the Emperor is completely different than the Ultramarines, so the killing and destruction would be higher. But their final objective remain the same... they want to create followers not dead people. (Again on the matter, even if a little OT, Lorgar took a hard position against Horus when Fulgrim was possessed. He said that his New Gods don't need puppets but worshipper... so killing everyone is not a success) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/265965-legion-dispositionof-the-2nd-and-11th/page/3/#findComment-3243505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.