Valtonis Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 trying to do a list of who are the Space marines that each represent their individual legion, as a sort of "champion" be it officially or unofficially during the pre-heresy era Like Sigismund of Imperial Fists or Sevatar of the Night Lords Dark Angels - ??? Emperor's Children - Julius Kaesoron, although some might make a case for Eidolon or Lucius, i feel that it would be Kaesoron Iron Warriors - Forrix White Scars - ??? Space Wolves - Bjorn the Fell-handed or could it be someone else? since he only came to the fore after the Heresy Imperial Fists - Sigismund Night Lords - Jago "Sevatar" Sevatarion Blood Angels - Azkaellon or Raldoron, not really sure who it would be although i would think it should be Azkaellon Iron Hands - Gabriel Santar, i suppose since he was First Captain World Eaters - Khârn Ultramarines - Marius Gage? Death Guard - Calas Typhon Thousand Sons - Ahzek Ahriman Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus - Ezekyle Abaddon Word Bearers - Erebus Salamanders - ?? Raven Guard - ?? Alpha Legion - ?? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 DA- Corswain Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3240573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 Raven Guard I'd imagine would be Branne. Ultramarines would most likely end up being one of the four Tetrarchs, as I believe all four are still alive. Anyone recently look through KNF? Not sure on anything else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3240576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I don't think Bjorn was a champion in the wolves legion, maybe after prospero. I'm not sure if they have a first company like other legions, I think their 13th company fills that roll. Askaellon is commander of the Sanguinary guard, but Raldoron is the First captain, Altough Amit of the fith (flesh tearer) shouldn't be underestimated. Erebus is First chaplain, but a champion of the legion, it's proven he can stand his ground in combat ( I think he held out against Lucius quite a while in sparring), but then Argel Tal is also a special character with a special place in the legion. Woudn't the champ of the alpha legion be alpharius <_< they all appear as alpharius at a time for outsiders Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3240594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Alpha Legion - Alpharius wink wink Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3241945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCommanderSamirus Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I believe that Ju'Kosian is right about Argel Tal being a Champion of sorts for the Word Bearers. Especially after the events on the Orfeo's Lament. In Butcher's Nails theres a bit where he's dueling Khârn. Who also remembers dueling against Amit of the Blood Angels. -Samirus Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Alpha Legion - Alpharius wink wink No one else can represent better the Legion than Alpharius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I think Agapito could be the Raven Guard hero, although Nykona Sharrowkyn is badass and only a battle brother, but a battle brother who shot Fulgrim in the head and did a lot more besides. There is a Salamander, he pops up in Promethean Sun and then later on during a short story which involves an Iron Hand and some sabotaging Iron Warriors. Alpha Legion could be between Ingo Pech or Sheed Ranko. For the Ultramarines, Gage is the first captain but Eikos Lamiad was the Primarch's Champion out of the four Tetrarchs. Shiban Khan maybe the champion of the white scars, but they don't really have a fundamental organisation and so I wouldn't say he was just yet. Bjorn wasn't a hero, it's possible he became one after prospero though but we've not really seen much of them since. I'd say Argel Tal is considered the champion of the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Dark Angels - Corswaine, Astelan Emperor's Children - Julius Kaesoron, Lucius, Marius Vairosean Iron Warriors - Forrix White Scars - Jubal Khan Space Wolves - Bjorn the Fell-handed Imperial Fists - Sigismund Night Lords - Sevatarion Blood Angels - Azkaellon, Raldoron, Amit Iron Hands - Gabriel Santar, Shadrak Meduson, Henricos Bion World Eaters - Khârn Ultramarines - Eikos Lamiad, Tauro Nicodemus, 2 unnamed tetrachs Death Guard - Typhon Thousand Sons - Ahzek Ahriman Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus - Abaddon Word Bearers - Erebus Salamanders - ??? Raven Guard - Sharrowkyn Alpha Legion - Sheed Ranko Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 There is a Salamander, he pops up in Promethean Sun and then later on during a short story which involves an Iron Hand and some sabotaging Iron Warriors. If that's the short story I'm thinking of(most likely not), didn't that Salamander die saving some civilians and an Ultramarine? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 There is a Salamander, he pops up in Promethean Sun and then later on during a short story which involves an Iron Hand and some sabotaging Iron Warriors. If that's the short story I'm thinking of(most likely not), didn't that Salamander die saving some civilians and an Ultramarine? I believe so, but then again champions do die now and then, Sheed Ranko for example, as well as one of the Emperor's Children in Angel Exterminatus. I was only speculating though, with the new Salamander novels coming it could be someone else, but he seemed pretty heroic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Laertes Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I was actually researching this the other day, looking for the legions' senior officers, ie. who would command the legion in the event of a primarch's death/hangover/therapy session. From all of the heresy materials, I think the legion seconds are as follows (ie. First Captains/Commanders): Dark Angels: Corswain Emperor's Children: Eidolon/Vespasian Iron Warriors: Forrix White Scars: Jubal Khan Space Wolves: Gunnar Gunnhilt Imperial Fists: Sigismund Night Lords: Sevatar Blood Angels: Raldoron Iron Hands: Gabriel Santar World Eaters: Khârn Ultramarines: Marius Gage Death Guard: Calas Typhon Thousand Sons: Azhek Ahriman Luna Wolves: Abaddon Word Bearers: Kor Phaeron Salamanders: Fenlan (only one I'm not quite sure about) Raven Guard: Aloni Alpha Legion: Ingo Pech I think these are right, but all input welcome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think you could also list Nathaniel Garro as a Champion for Death Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 What is "champion" here? The greatest fighter of the legion? An exemplary warrior who epitomizes the legion's tenets? Favoured of the Primarch? The guy who is most popular? What? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 There's usually a cross over between the first captain and "champion", there's also what we think are champions and actual champions, for example we could think Sharrowkyn is a champion but in the universe he could just be a battle brother, one amongst many. Most of the time though the champion will be the first captain, but then you get noticable figures like Lucius, Amit, Pollux etc. Who are just gifted individuals who do hold rank but are not a commanding figure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3242950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I was actually researching this the other day, looking for the legions' senior officers, ie. who would command the legion in the event of a primarch's death/hangover/therapy session. From all of the heresy materials, I think the legion seconds are as follows (ie. First Captains/Commanders): Dark Angels: Corswain :) Luther He might be on Caliban (and destined to go Traitor) but he is still the Lion's second/the Dark Angels' First Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Laertes Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think Luther effectively lost his second status when he was sent back to Caliban. Besides, it's not always wise to say that name in certain company (cue sound of interrogation equipment being sharpened...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think Luther effectively lost his second status when he was sent back to Caliban. I don't see why. If anything his position is reaffirmed by his being placed in a position of even greater responsibility, being tasked with oversight and streamlining of the recruitment of new Legionaries. Also, we have no reference to Corswain possessing an actual Command rank, he may have been elevated to the Lion's personal Champion/equerry but that doesn't make him First Captain. If that were the case, then you'd expect there to have been some reference to that new rank alongside the mention of his elevation to the Lion's Seneschal (equerry). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think Luther effectively lost his second status when he was sent back to Caliban. I don't see why. If anything his position is reaffirmed by his being placed in a position of even greater responsibility, being tasked with oversight and streamlining of the recruitment of new Legionaries. Also, we have no reference to Corswain possessing an actual Command rank, he may have been elevated to the Lion's personal Champion/equerry but that doesn't make him First Captain. If that were the case, then you'd expect there to have been some reference to that new rank alongside the mention of his elevation to the Lion's Seneschal (equerry). I like Corswain, but I know him only for his presence in the short story "The Lion". But in that he seems like a personal servant of the Primarch. Also he was on the same ship of the Primarch. If the idea of the Champion of the Legion is the man that take the lead when the primarch disappear, his presence of the same ship is a no-go issue. If the Champion mean only the most skilled man in the Legion, he could fill the role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranc Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Isn't Corswain Champion of the Ninth Order? I see this as equivalent to a company champion in 40K. So the sergeant who finds him at the end of "Savage Weapons" is now his Captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Isn't Corswain Champion of the Ninth Order? I see this as equivalent to a company champion in 40K. So the sergeant who finds him at the end of "Savage Weapons" is now his Captain. In the novella "The Lion" we learn that Corswain has earned the position of the Lion's Seneschal (effectively his equerry), the implication being that he is no longer Paladin Champion of the 9th Order. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 What is "champion" here? The greatest fighter of the legion? An exemplary warrior who epitomizes the legion's tenets? Favoured of the Primarch? The guy who is most popular? What? What i am looking at is "The greatest fighter of the legion", first then "An exemplary warrior who epitomizes the legion's tenets". of course he still needs to be at or near the top of the chain but if the greatest fighter part is some what equal i would go for the epitomises the Legion's tenets part. that is why i went with Kaesoron over Lucius and bear in mind i am looking at pre-heresy or just before Horus turned. that is to say if there was gonna be a Feasts of Blades thingy for the Legions who would the Primarchs send? For Dark Angels i think the suggestion of Corswain would be the better one over Luther, i mean Luther would have problems going up against a normal Sm much less a champion of another legion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Laertes Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think Luther effectively lost his second status when he was sent back to Caliban. I don't see why. If anything his position is reaffirmed by his being placed in a position of even greater responsibility, being tasked with oversight and streamlining of the recruitment of new Legionaries. Also, we have no reference to Corswain possessing an actual Command rank, he may have been elevated to the Lion's personal Champion/equerry but that doesn't make him First Captain. If that were the case, then you'd expect there to have been some reference to that new rank alongside the mention of his elevation to the Lion's Seneschal (equerry). You may well be correct that Luther is technically the Legion second, probably because the Lion thinks it would be very bad for morale amongst the Calibanite elements of the Legion to officially sack him (I doubt its because the Lion is sentimental!). There are a couple of things to take into account: 1. Luther himself seems to be under the impression his exile is permanent - see opening chapter of Fallen Angels. 2. The Lion doesn't even bother to communicate with Luther himself. 3. Therefore I really can't see the Lion giving Luther combat command again, he's really not the forgiving type... So perhaps he the theoretical second in command, but as he's exiled from the crusade and not in the Lion's favour, de facto he's really not. Unless of course you buy into the theory that the Lion knows that Caliban is tainted and sends Luther back to protect it. Personally I think it's more likely that the Lion sends him and the rest back to put all the rotten eggs in one (tainted) basket. Given the interaction between the Lion and Corswain across all the literature, it seems that the Lion treats Corswain as the de facto second in command. Can't really think of anyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ju'kosian Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 If we are talking Pre heresy era, isn't Forrix commander of the Second company ? And Golg the first company ? Pre-heresy we can add Garro to the list too I think. Pre-heresy, Hasthur Sejanus for the Luna wolves maybe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3243889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think Luther effectively lost his second status when he was sent back to Caliban. I don't see why. If anything his position is reaffirmed by his being placed in a position of even greater responsibility, being tasked with oversight and streamlining of the recruitment of new Legionaries. Also, we have no reference to Corswain possessing an actual Command rank, he may have been elevated to the Lion's personal Champion/equerry but that doesn't make him First Captain. If that were the case, then you'd expect there to have been some reference to that new rank alongside the mention of his elevation to the Lion's Seneschal (equerry). You may well be correct that Luther is technically the Legion second, probably because the Lion thinks it would be very bad for morale amongst the Calibanite elements of the Legion to officially sack him (I doubt its because the Lion is sentimental!). There are a couple of things to take into account: 1. Luther himself seems to be under the impression his exile is permanent - see opening chapter of Fallen Angels. 2. The Lion doesn't even bother to communicate with Luther himself. 3. Therefore I really can't see the Lion giving Luther combat command again, he's really not the forgiving type... So perhaps he the theoretical second in command, but as he's exiled from the crusade and not in the Lion's favour, de facto he's really not. Unless of course you buy into the theory that the Lion knows that Caliban is tainted and sends Luther back to protect it. Personally I think it's more likely that the Lion sends him and the rest back to put all the rotten eggs in one (tainted) basket. Given the interaction between the Lion and Corswain across all the literature, it seems that the Lion treats Corswain as the de facto second in command. Can't really think of anyone else. Would you really put a rotten egg in charge of recruitment? I've got to say that sounds a bit strange. I'd would much prefer to put someone I can completely trust to be in charge of recruiting and training my marines. Certainly one that can sort things out themselves without having to have their hands held continuously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/#findComment-3244000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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