Lorenzen Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 disagree with typhon, sorceror in a legion who dont like sorcery etc etc. rask is a better choice as is mortug.. but in the long run the deathshroud are the true epitome of the legion.. no mess, no frills, no names. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Would you really put a rotten egg in charge of recruitment? I've got to say that sounds a bit strange. I'd would much prefer to put someone I can completely trust to be in charge of recruiting and training my marines. Certainly one that can sort things out themselves without having to have their hands held continuously. That is my thinking as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 During Zahariel's induction into the Order he was asked "who holds the true power in the Order" He initially thought The Lion or Luther but he ends up choosing Ramiel. The man who shapes the Orders recruits shapes the Order and ends up having the most power. The Lion gave Luther TREMENDOUS power. That said, there is two much about their relationship we don't know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 The Champions of the Legions don't correspond to the First Captains/Commanders in all cases. In the case of the Ultramarines, they even seemed to have more than one with the Tetrarchs. Some Legions seemed to eschew the concept altogether, one can make a case that in spite of Abaddon's nigh-legendary battle prowess and his First Captaincy, he's never referred to as a Champion of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus in the same fashion that Lucius is referred to as Fulgrim's "Champion". I think Sevatar would have laughed at the notion of being thought of as a "Champion" in any vein, much less being considered one for Night Haunter. I'd caution against trying to forcibly jam individuals into the same mold. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Who epitomizes their legion, maybe? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Corswain is the Champion of the Dark Angels, but the First Captain is Luther Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Dark Angels: Corswain ;) Luther He might be on Caliban (and destined to go Traitor) but he is still the Lion's second/the Dark Angels' First Captain. Just to be clear, the OP didn't ask for the Legion 2ic, it asked for the "Champion". The minute Luther was exiled back to Caliban, he no longer representative of the Legion in the eyes of the Lion. Thus, in my eyes Corswain, as seneschal, is the "Champion" of the 1st Legion after Luther is sent back to Caliban. Under the Ancien Régime in southern France, the sénéchal was the king's representative charged with the application of justice and control of administration in the sénéchaussée (administrative district). In northern France, the terms used were bailli and bailliage (bailiwick). According to historian Henry Hallam, the first sénéchaux to receive judicial functions did so by an edict of Philip II of France in 1190, and "acted as the king's lieutenants in his domains", or as a sort of roving ambassador or minister for the throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Dark Angels: Corswain :D Luther He might be on Caliban (and destined to go Traitor) but he is still the Lion's second/the Dark Angels' First Captain. Just to be clear, the OP didn't ask for the Legion 2ic, it asked for the "Champion". The minute Luther was exiled back to Caliban, he no longer representative of the Legion in the eyes of the Lion. Thus, in my eyes Corswain, as seneschal, is the "Champion" of the 1st Legion after Luther is sent back to Caliban. A fact of which I'm well aware. But since I was specifically addressing Capt Leartes' listing of the senior officers of the Legions and his erroneous naming of Corswain as the DA First Captain (second in charge) thats neither here nor there. A fact of which you would have been aware had you not seemingly chosen to ignore (and yet somehow manage to selectively remove) the key part of Capt Leartes' post that I quoted which qualified what I was actually addressing. I was actually researching this the other day, looking for the legions' senior officers, ie. who would command the legion in the event of a primarch's death/hangover/therapy session. From all of the heresy materials, I think the legion seconds are as follows (ie. First Captains/Commanders): Corswain definitely appears to be the Legion's Champion (as well as the Lion's equerry), he is not however the Legion's second in Command, that is Luther. Under the Ancien Régime in southern France, the sénéchal was the king's representative charged with the application of justice and control of administration in the sénéchaussée (administrative district). In northern France, the terms used were bailli and bailliage (bailiwick). According to historian Henry Hallam, the first sénéchaux to receive judicial functions did so by an edict of Philip II of France in 1190, and "acted as the king's lieutenants in his domains", or as a sort of roving ambassador or minister for the throne. And? :) That still doesn't even suggest that he's the Legion's second in Command. It makes him the Lion's major-domo or steward, not a command rank officer and not his second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 disagree with typhon, sorceror in a legion who dont like sorcery etc etc. rask is a better choice as is mortug.. but in the long run the deathshroud are the true epitome of the legion.. no mess, no frills, no names. But I always thought that Typhon kept his psychic abilities a secret until the heresy? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 But I always thought that Typhon kept his psychic abilities a secret until the heresy? He did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 He was part of the librarius prior to Mortarion turning up..which could point to the idea of when Mortarion was found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 He was part of the librarius prior to Mortarion turning up..which could point to the idea of when Mortarion was found. Which is a nest trick for someone who is noted as being born on Barbarus... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 God knows then lol, I think this has come up before somewhere tho, how can Typhon of been a librarian if he was born on Barbarus and thus joined when Mortarion did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 God knows then lol, I think this has come up before somewhere tho, how can Typhon of been a librarian if he was born on Barbarus and thus joined when Mortarion did. Poor fact checking springs to mind as a possible answer to that... Edit - Since the only reference I'm aware of to Typhon being a member of the Librarius is in Gav's 'The Lion'. Its not mention anywhere else that I can think of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 God knows then lol, I think this has come up before somewhere tho, how can Typhon of been a librarian if he was born on Barbarus and thus joined when Mortarion did. Poor fact checking springs to mind as a possible answer to that... Edit - Since the only reference I'm aware of to Typhon being a member of the Librarius is in Gav's 'The Lion'. Its not mention anywhere else that I can think of. This sentence give some "continuity" problems, because in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion said that he never allowed the introduction of the librarium in his Legion. So Typhon couldn't be a Librarian in the Dusk Raiders and at the same time a Barbarus native. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 God knows then lol, I think this has come up before somewhere tho, how can Typhon of been a librarian if he was born on Barbarus and thus joined when Mortarion did. Poor fact checking springs to mind as a possible answer to that... Edit - Since the only reference I'm aware of to Typhon being a member of the Librarius is in Gav's 'The Lion'. Its not mention anywhere else that I can think of. This sentence give some "continuity" problems, because in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion said that he never allowed the introduction of the librarium in his Legion. So Typhon couldn't be a Librarian in the Dusk Raiders and at the same time a Barbarus native. the first sentence doesnt mean anything to the second sentence. the first setence says that the Librarium was never allowed into the legion while it was controlled by Mortarion. A Librarium may have been introduced prior to the Dusk Raiders becoming the Death Guard. Either way, not allowing a Librarium wont magically erase any talent that may already be possessed by a member of his Legion. If Typhon had the talent, he may have well hidden it when Mortarion made his displeasure of psykers known. the second sentence means that the BL team fluffed up royally, but that isnt uncommon. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244769 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 God knows then lol, I think this has come up before somewhere tho, how can Typhon of been a librarian if he was born on Barbarus and thus joined when Mortarion did. Poor fact checking springs to mind as a possible answer to that... Edit - Since the only reference I'm aware of to Typhon being a member of the Librarius is in Gav's 'The Lion'. Its not mention anywhere else that I can think of. This sentence give some "continuity" problems, because in A Thousand Sons, Mortarion said that he never allowed the introduction of the librarium in his Legion. So Typhon couldn't be a Librarian in the Dusk Raiders and at the same time a Barbarus native. the first sentence doesnt mean anything to the second sentence. the first setence says that the Librarium was never allowed into the legion while it was controlled by Mortarion. A Librarium may have been introduced prior to the Dusk Raiders becoming the Death Guard. Either way, not allowing a Librarium wont magically erase any talent that may already be possessed by a member of his Legion. If Typhon had the talent, he may have well hidden it when Mortarion made his displeasure of psykers known. the second sentence means that the BL team fluffed up royally, but that isnt uncommon. WLK With mine "this sentence" I was not referring to the words of WoT or MadDoc, because they reported a part of "The Lion". My meaning was about the problem arising from the sentence reported on that book. I rewrite the part in page 297 "When he had been a member of the Librarius his powers had been considerable. Mortarion's hatred of warpcrafthad finished Typhon's exploration of his other nature when the Dusk Raiders became Death Guards". The continuity problem starts here because Typhon couldn't be at the same time a Librarian of the Dusk Raiders and a native of Barbarus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Just another example of writers (and by "writers" I mean Thorpe) not doing their homework. They really just need to stop giving him work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarkassBC Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Just another example of writers (and by "writers" I mean Thorpe) not doing their homework. They really just need to stop giving him work. But I'm not completely sure which author made an error. The error could be the Mortarion's sentence where he said that he never allowed the Librarium in his Legion when he reshaped them as Death Guards. The only possibility to have both situation as true is that Mortarion officially took the Legion when he was found by the Emperor, but he followed the Emperor for some years like a training period, and after he went back to his Legion to command it. Of course this scenario disagree with other lore and we will never solve this situation until another author will give a final solution in a newer book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3244976 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuskRaider Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Mortarion has always been against psykers. He abhorred the Librarium, and actively sought to tear it down (along with that hypocrit Russ). Typhon (Typhus) has always been a Barbarus native, and even in past background material, he was forced to hide his powers from his Primarch until he turned on the Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3245334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Mortarion has always been against psykers. He abhorred the Librarium, and actively sought to tear it down (along with that hypocrit Russ). Typhon (Typhus) has always been a Barbarus native, and even in past background material, he was forced to hide his powers from his Primarch until he turned on the Legion. None of that is being questioned. The error is the statement that Typhus trained in the Death Guard Librarius, when there never was a Death Guard Librarius. There may have been a Dusk Raider Librarius prior to Mortarion's assumption of Legion command, but Calas Typhon was from Barbarus, not Terra, and thus would never have been a part of that Librarius. One person's overzealous scribblings and someone else's failure to facts check has damaged the continuity of the character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3245599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzen Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 the DEATH GUARD did have a librarius programme, wether it was implemented in a separate fleet to the main one it was post mortarion (mortug a non terran non barbarus native was in it for a short time) maybe magnus tried to get it in behind his brothers back? typhon has contradicting origins including desendant of the warlords.. but hes no champion or epitome of the legion, just another kor phaeron/luthor twidly moustache villain with a crap history.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3245625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I think it's interesting to note that everyone is naming a lot of famous characters from the Heresy (Azkaellon, Sevatar, Argel Tal etc) and I may be wrong in this so please feel free to correct me but I was under the impression that the whole point of a champion was to basically for the designated individual to get down in the blood and mud and do the killing in place of a ranking officer so that (if by chance) they happened to run into someone tougher than them and fell, it wouldn't cause disruption to the change of command. With most of the characters named so far, theres a few first captains listed. What shouldn't be forgotten is that these guys are basically the right arms of the Primarchs. I find it a tad implausable that they would deliberatly be put in a position of considerable risk. That said however, you can be 100% that no1 rises to the rank of first captain without being damn useful in a fight. What I think would put the brakes on it would be the responsibilities the first captain would have not just on a particular battlefield but in terms of wider campaigns and strategic decisions for hundreds of thousands of troops. armour, ships etc. Too much of an asset to throw against potentially superior opponents. To my knowledge the only mention made so far regarding champions would be the Tetrarchs of the Ultramarines, who it is explicitly stated, oversee the governing of the Five Hundered Worlds under Guilliman but above the LEgion command structure of captains and chapter masters. Again they're probably more than handy when it comes to life and death on the blades but I think Primarch's Champion is more of a symbolic title. As a side point, I think it's safe to assume that neither Russ nor Angron would ever designate a champion for their Legions. They'd just gallop ahead by themselves and kill anything standing in their way :P Just me 2 pence Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3246080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtonis Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 it appears that alot of people are not reading my posts and thus misunderstanding what i was trying to ask. take a what if situation, if there was gonna be a thing like Festival of Blades pre-heresy who would the primarchs sent to represent their Legion? firstly, that person would have to be good at fighting and secondly be representative of that legion. i am just trying to get some names in to do an art project and not trying to have a "canon" lists of Legion champions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3248411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Lucius - Emperor'sChildren Sigismund - Imperial Fists Amit - Blood Angels Corswain - Dark Angels Sevatar - Night Lords. Are the ones that spring to mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/266001-champions-of-the-legions/page/2/#findComment-3248443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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